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Re: [s-w-h] AIR turbines sold, Whispers orphaned

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  • Doug
    Hi Juan: Today I received this e-mail regarding someone s experience with Bornay turbines: ****************************************************** Doug, I took
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 8, 2013
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      Hi Juan:
      Today I received this e-mail regarding someone's experience with Bornay turbines:
      ******************************************************
      "Doug,

      I took our 6kW Bornay there to have it rewound twice and they had a terrible time getting the phasing right the first time. Put out under 10 volts AC at full rpm....
      Had to drive it all the way back to have them rewire. 2nd burn up was not Eurton’s fault. Bornay brushes were shorting to the case dumping 6kW into one phase and poof!

      Bornay replaced the 6kW with a 3 kW. It also burned up. Took it to a Santa Maria rewind shop and has been working since fine. Bornay covered that rewind cost $1800 under warranty.

      Chris ****"
      *******************************************************
      Every time I see another high-price turbine from Europe, South Africa, or really anywhere, I look at my virtual wristwatch and wonder how many days it will survive. Probably not many. What turbine can anyone buy that will produce more $ in electricity than it costs before failing? If a turbine is destined for a quick failure anyway, wouldn't it be better for people to just buy a cheap one?

      :)
      Doug Selsam


      --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Bornay Aerogeneradores, slu" <bornay@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dan,
      >
      > At www.bornay.com We offer a range of products for off grid applications from 600 to 6000 watts.
      >
      > We are looking for dealers at the US market.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Juande Bornay
      > Dpto. Comercial
      > juande@...
      >
      > Bornay
      > P.I. Riu, Cno. del riu, s/n
      > 03420 Castalla (Alicante) España
      > Tel. +34 965 560 025 | Fax +34 965 560 752
      > www.bornay.com
      >
      > El 07/02/2013, a las 06:50, Dan Fink <danbob88@...> escribió:
      >
      > > Oh dear! I wonder how long they'll have spare parts for Whispers around now?
      > > It seems like Bergey is the only game in town now for smaller, off-grid
      > > systems. All the AC-coupling hassles and extra expense for using the
      > > Skystream for battery charging makes me want to avoid it.
      > > AIR:Southwest Windpower is pleased to announce that Primus Wind Power of
      > > Lakewood, CO, USA, has purchased our entire AIR turbine product line as of
      > > January 18, 2013. Primus Wind Energy is a newly established division of the
      > > Primus Group, which is a leading provider of high complexity assemblies and
      > > components for the energy, aerospace, defense, and medical industries.
      > > Effective immediately, this transaction has transferred all AIR turbine
      > > business activities to Primus Wind Power and they will continue producing
      > > the AIR Breeze, AIR 30 and AIR 40 turbines, tower kits, replacement parts
      > > and attend to warranty issues for all our global customers. All current,
      > > future and unfulfilled orders will be shipped by Primus Wind Power. Please
      > > contact Primus directly for any AIR turbine requirements. They may be
      > > contacted at (303) 242-5820 or www.primuswindpower.com
      > >
      > > Southwest Windpower GmbH will continue to be the primary wholesaler and
      > > warehouse partner for all European, Middle East and African region
      > > distributors and dealers. Southwest Windpower GmbH will continue to support
      > > the AIR turbine product lines as historically performed. Please contact
      > > Southwest Windpower GmbH directly for any AIR turbine requirements if you
      > > are a customer in these regions.
      > >
      > > Whisper:Our Whisper turbines will no longer be available for sale, but
      > > Southwest Windpower will continue to support valid warranty claims.
      > >
      > > These exciting developments will allow Southwest Windpower to focus our
      > > efforts on our key product, Skystream 3.7, and continue developing this
      > > product for current and future applications.
      > >
      > > --
      > > Dan Fink,
      > > Executive Director;
      > > Otherpower
      > > Buckville Energy Consulting
      > > Buckville Publications LLC
      > > NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
      > > 970.672.4342 (voicemail)
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > ==========================================================
      > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
      > > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
      > > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > . To view previous messages from the list,
      > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
      > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
      > > (and read it on the Web), go to
      > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
      > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
      > > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Bornay Aerogeneradores, SLU
      Hello Doug, I don t know why you wrote me that message. This was a problem from early 2011 and discussed in this forum. Since then wind turbine is working and
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 11, 2013
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        Hello Doug,

        I don't know why you wrote me that message. This was a problem from early 2011 and discussed in this forum.

        Since then wind turbine is working and according with the last message from Chris, Since the local electrical rewind shop did the rewind, the unit has been producing 5-10 kWH per day.

        Bornay is company founded in 1970, with more than 40 years of experience into the field of Small Wind Turbines, more than 5000 wind turbines has been sold in the last years, and of course our products as any other manufacturer are not free of possible defects.

        Main problem we have in US is that we are not present with a solid distribution and this is what we are looking for, because a problem like this one with Chris can happens and it's very difficult to solve fast and in a god way if we are at more than 10.000 Km, so we are looking for a god partner in US in way to expand our wind turbines in your country.

        You can find detailed information of our products at www.bornay.com

        Regards,
        Juande Bornay
        Dpto. Comercial
        juande@...

        Bornay
        P.I. Riu, Con. del Riu, s/n
        03420 Castalla (Alicante) España
        Tel +34 965560025 | Fax +34 965560752
        www.bornay.com



        -----Mensaje original-----
        De: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Doug
        Enviado el: viernes, 08 de marzo de 2013 22:24
        Para: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
        Asunto: Re: [s-w-h] AIR turbines sold, Whispers orphaned

        Hi Juan:
        Today I received this e-mail regarding someone's experience with Bornay turbines:
        ******************************************************
        "Doug,

        I took our 6kW Bornay there to have it rewound twice and they had a terrible time getting the phasing right the first time. Put out under 10 volts AC at full rpm....
        Had to drive it all the way back to have them rewire. 2nd burn up was not Eurton’s fault. Bornay brushes were shorting to the case dumping 6kW into one phase and poof!

        Bornay replaced the 6kW with a 3 kW. It also burned up. Took it to a Santa Maria rewind shop and has been working since fine. Bornay covered that rewind cost $1800 under warranty.

        Chris ****"
        *******************************************************
        Every time I see another high-price turbine from Europe, South Africa, or really anywhere, I look at my virtual wristwatch and wonder how many days it will survive. Probably not many. What turbine can anyone buy that will produce more $ in electricity than it costs before failing? If a turbine is destined for a quick failure anyway, wouldn't it be better for people to just buy a cheap one?

        :)
        Doug Selsam
      • Doug
        Hi Juan: Sorry, I did not mean to single out your Bornay machine, but you had responded to my post complaining that there are no reliable machines and I got
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 12, 2013
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          Hi Juan:
          Sorry, I did not mean to single out your Bornay machine, but you had responded to my post complaining that there are no reliable machines and I got that e-mail about the same time, indicating that even Bornay turbines may not always survive. That story revealed a lot of problems for one turbine.

          I always thought that Bornay turbines must have all the bugs worked out - that they were among the very best, which they probably ARE, and that is my point. I assumed that these intimidatingly-expensive European and South African machines would at least not break down easily, and be reliable over the long haul. I imagined that if someone paid that much for a turbine, it would work without problems. Seeing a Bornay, I felt like a go-kart-maker looking at a Ferrari.

          I don't know of a Bornay installed around here, and I have never seen one on a tower. This was the only Bornay owner I ever heard from, so I passed along the info, as a counterpoint to your assertion that you offered a trouble-free product, in response to my noting that there did not seem to be many, if any, reliable choices out there.

          I had noticed early on, how many Southwest customers were angry, and how Southwest had gotten bogged down with warranty returns, but I also noticed they had one good model - the H-40 (later H-100).
          It seemed to me that a key factor would be to really get all the bugs out of a model before selling in large numbers.

          So, while I assumed the intimidatingly-expensive machines were the only way to get to good performance and no problems, I started to ask:
          "Are these expensive machines with their impressive-looking finishes truly trouble-free machines?" If people spend that much money on a wind turbine are they guaranteed a trouble-free experience? I guess the answer is "no".

          Now I hear you talking about a certain number of "possible defects".
          Well, I'm just going to suggest, without really knowing, maybe the defect is not in a single turbine, but in the design? That the design itself does not quite survive all wind events? Well, maybe it was just an isolated physical defect, causing all these problems - I don't know. You pick. Either way, it makes my point that this industry still has a problem coming up with a reliable small wind turbine.

          I have burned out many stators myself. I've got stacks and stacks of broken blades, broken frames, sizzled stators. So it's not like I'm trying to claim I've never had a turbine break or burn out. In my own case, when I saw that they could have certain problems, I went back to the drawing board, and back to testing to destruction, rather than seeing how many thousand turbines I could sell. I took a couple of problem sites as "poster child" sites, and figured as long as there is a single site where my machines would not survive, I'd better hold off in producing machines in large numbers.

          I think small wind is one of the most difficult engineering challenges ever. Let's keep in mind, we had a man on the moon before we had a windfarm!

          Then again companies like Delco produced somewhat reliable turbines by the millions back in the 1930's, electrifying the whole Midwest.
          If they could do it then, why can't we do it now? Maybe the same reason we no longer go to the moon (so far as we are told...)?

          :)
          Doug Selsam


          --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Bornay Aerogeneradores, SLU" <bornay@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Doug,
          >
          > I don't know why you wrote me that message. This was a problem from early 2011 and discussed in this forum.
          >
          > Since then wind turbine is working and according with the last message from Chris, Since the local electrical rewind shop did the rewind, the unit has been producing 5-10 kWH per day.
          >
          > Bornay is company founded in 1970, with more than 40 years of experience into the field of Small Wind Turbines, more than 5000 wind turbines has been sold in the last years, and of course our products as any other manufacturer are not free of possible defects.
          >
          > Main problem we have in US is that we are not present with a solid distribution and this is what we are looking for, because a problem like this one with Chris can happens and it's very difficult to solve fast and in a god way if we are at more than 10.000 Km, so we are looking for a god partner in US in way to expand our wind turbines in your country.
          >
          > You can find detailed information of our products at www.bornay.com
          >
          > Regards,
          > Juande Bornay
          > Dpto. Comercial
          > juande@...
          >
          > Bornay
          > P.I. Riu, Con. del Riu, s/n
          > 03420 Castalla (Alicante) España
          > Tel +34 965560025 | Fax +34 965560752
          > www.bornay.com
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Mensaje original-----
          > De: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Doug
          > Enviado el: viernes, 08 de marzo de 2013 22:24
          > Para: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > Asunto: Re: [s-w-h] AIR turbines sold, Whispers orphaned
          >
          > Hi Juan:
          > Today I received this e-mail regarding someone's experience with Bornay turbines:
          > ******************************************************
          > "Doug,
          >
          > I took our 6kW Bornay there to have it rewound twice and they had a terrible time getting the phasing right the first time. Put out under 10 volts AC at full rpm....
          > Had to drive it all the way back to have them rewire. 2nd burn up was not Eurton’s fault. Bornay brushes were shorting to the case dumping 6kW into one phase and poof!
          >
          > Bornay replaced the 6kW with a 3 kW. It also burned up. Took it to a Santa Maria rewind shop and has been working since fine. Bornay covered that rewind cost $1800 under warranty.
          >
          > Chris ****"
          > *******************************************************
          > Every time I see another high-price turbine from Europe, South Africa, or really anywhere, I look at my virtual wristwatch and wonder how many days it will survive. Probably not many. What turbine can anyone buy that will produce more $ in electricity than it costs before failing? If a turbine is destined for a quick failure anyway, wouldn't it be better for people to just buy a cheap one?
          >
          > :)
          > Doug Selsam
          >
        • Dave Merrill
          Again Doug - a well written and a well thought out response. Your reasoning is spot-on as far as what us seasoned installers have witnessed and experienced.
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 12, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Again Doug - a well written and a well thought out response. Your reasoning is spot-on as far as what us "seasoned" installers have witnessed and experienced. Physics and gravity always win....over $ making and marketing. I always look forward to your posts. Dave Merrill
            SunAir Systems


            ---------- Original Message ----------
            From: "Doug" <dougselsam@...>
            To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [s-w-h] Re: AIR turbines sold, Whispers orphaned
            Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2013 15:09:48 -0000

            Hi Juan:
            Sorry, I did not mean to single out your Bornay machine, but you had responded to my post complaining that there are no reliable machines and I got that e-mail about the same time, indicating that even Bornay turbines may not always survive. That story revealed a lot of problems for one turbine.

            I always thought that Bornay turbines must have all the bugs worked out - that they were among the very best, which they probably ARE, and that is my point. I assumed that these intimidatingly-expensive European and South African machines would at least not break down easily, and be reliable over the long haul. I imagined that if someone paid that much for a turbine, it would work without problems. Seeing a Bornay, I felt like a go-kart-maker looking at a Ferrari.

            I don't know of a Bornay installed around here, and I have never seen one on a tower. This was the only Bornay owner I ever heard from, so I passed along the info, as a counterpoint to your assertion that you offered a trouble-free product, in response to my noting that there did not seem to be many, if any, reliable choices out there.

            I had noticed early on, how many Southwest customers were angry, and how Southwest had gotten bogged down with warranty returns, but I also noticed they had one good model - the H-40 (later H-100).
            It seemed to me that a key factor would be to really get all the bugs out of a model before selling in large numbers.

            So, while I assumed the intimidatingly-expensive machines were the only way to get to good performance and no problems, I started to ask:
            "Are these expensive machines with their impressive-looking finishes truly trouble-free machines?" If people spend that much money on a wind turbine are they guaranteed a trouble-free experience? I guess the answer is "no".

            Now I hear you talking about a certain number of "possible defects".
            Well, I'm just going to suggest, without really knowing, maybe the defect is not in a single turbine, but in the design? That the design itself does not quite survive all wind events? Well, maybe it was just an isolated physical defect, causing all these problems - I don't know. You pick. Either way, it makes my point that this industry still has a problem coming up with a reliable small wind turbine.

            I have burned out many stators myself. I've got stacks and stacks of broken blades, broken frames, sizzled stators. So it's not like I'm trying to claim I've never had a turbine break or burn out. In my own case, when I saw that they could have certain problems, I went back to the drawing board, and back to testing to destruction, rather than seeing how many thousand turbines I could sell. I took a couple of problem sites as "poster child" sites, and figured as long as there is a single site where my machines would not survive, I'd better hold off in producing machines in large numbers.

            I think small wind is one of the most difficult engineering challenges ever. Let's keep in mind, we had a man on the moon before we had a windfarm!

            Then again companies like Delco produced somewhat reliable turbines by the millions back in the 1930's, electrifying the whole Midwest.
            If they could do it then, why can't we do it now? Maybe the same reason we no longer go to the moon (so far as we are told...)?

            :)
            Doug Selsam


            --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Bornay Aerogeneradores, SLU" <bornay@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello Doug,
            >
            > I don't know why you wrote me that message. This was a problem from early 2011 and discussed in this forum.
            >
            > Since then wind turbine is working and according with the last message from Chris, Since the local electrical rewind shop did the rewind, the unit has been producing 5-10 kWH per day.
            >
            > Bornay is company founded in 1970, with more than 40 years of experience into the field of Small Wind Turbines, more than 5000 wind turbines has been sold in the last years, and of course our products as any other manufacturer are not free of possible defects.
            >
            > Main problem we have in US is that we are not present with a solid distribution and this is what we are looking for, because a problem like this one with Chris can happens and it's very difficult to solve fast and in a god way if we are at more than 10.000 Km, so we are looking for a god partner in US in way to expand our wind turbines in your country.
            >
            > You can find detailed information of our products at www.bornay.com
            >
            > Regards,
            > Juande Bornay
            > Dpto. Comercial
            > juande@...
            >
            > Bornay
            > P.I. Riu, Con. del Riu, s/n
            > 03420 Castalla (Alicante) España
            > Tel +34 965560025 | Fax +34 965560752
            > www.bornay.com
            >
            >
            >
            > -----Mensaje original-----
            > De: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] En nombre de Doug
            > Enviado el: viernes, 08 de marzo de 2013 22:24
            > Para: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            > Asunto: Re: [s-w-h] AIR turbines sold, Whispers orphaned
            >
            > Hi Juan:
            > Today I received this e-mail regarding someone's experience with Bornay turbines:
            > ******************************************************
            > "Doug,
            >
            > I took our 6kW Bornay there to have it rewound twice and they had a terrible time getting the phasing right the first time. Put out under 10 volts AC at full rpm....
            > Had to drive it all the way back to have them rewire. 2nd burn up was not Eurton’s fault. Bornay brushes were shorting to the case dumping 6kW into one phase and poof!
            >
            > Bornay replaced the 6kW with a 3 kW. It also burned up. Took it to a Santa Maria rewind shop and has been working since fine. Bornay covered that rewind cost $1800 under warranty.
            >
            > Chris ****"
            > *******************************************************
            > Every time I see another high-price turbine from Europe, South Africa, or really anywhere, I look at my virtual wristwatch and wonder how many days it will survive. Probably not many. What turbine can anyone buy that will produce more $ in electricity than it costs before failing? If a turbine is destined for a quick failure anyway, wouldn't it be better for people to just buy a cheap one?
            >
            > :)
            > Doug Selsam
            >




            ------------------------------------

            ==========================================================
            THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            . Please feel free to send your input to:
            small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
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            . To view previous messages from the list,
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            or stop receiving the list by e-mail
            (and read it on the Web), go to
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            . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
            http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

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