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Re: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure

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  • jerry freedomev
                                   Hi Doug and All,                                          
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 6, 2013
                                     Hi Doug and All,
       
                                              Tobias' suggestion can be very reliable and low cost solution to your/our problem to use available PV inverters reliably it seems. Or oversize the inverter. Or use batteries.
       
                                              Just put a resistor, really just some steel/SS wire/sheet about 12-10gge worth in cross section wound in a coil  and use a contactor that adjusting with a resistor to  it's energizing coil  the voltage it cuts in .  Not much can be more simple, reliable than that, No?. 
       
                                               You have been given many solutions including copying the inverter discontinued.  Personally I don't see why setting the furling speed doesn't limit voltage, keep from burning out alts, well enough. It has worked on others for 80 yrs.   Time to pick one or 2.
       
                                              Maybe the best idea for you is copying the inverter you liked. Maybe get some people together and do it.  It won't cost that much and could become profitable in itself.  I'd join such a group as by next yr I'll need a 2-3kw unit for my units.  Electronics are cheap and done right would likely cost under $400/kw to build.
       
                                             With a 15% hit to eff you could use a DC motor to drive an AC alt to grid for about the same costs.
       
                                                                                            Jerry Dycus
       
       
                                              
                                      
       
       

      ________________________________
      From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
      To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 4:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure

      Operating without a dump load - riding without training wheels - going to school without your mommy...
      The idea is that a grid-tie system should not need a dump load if it furls.  Dump loads are for protecting a battery bank.  Even then, why are you still charging a battery bank that is already full in the first place???  If electronics can trigger a dump load, they can maybe be better-used to stop charging so you don't NEED a dump load.
      An ounce of prevention?
      The problem with continual additions of bandaids is they never work as well as just doing it right to start with, and every additional component costs money and time and takes up space and causes danger and can fail.  So you gotta keep it cheap and simple.  Many furling turbines such as mine are just fine running unloaded - they just furl a teeny bit more and then they slow down.  No biggie.

      --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@...> wrote:
      >
      > So you are operating without a dump load?
      > Your design doesn't overspin? How do you protect the generator?
      > Imho instead of cutout you should have the inverter directly parallel a
      > break load?
      > Maybe even a regular (Solar) Grid Tie Inverter may work if you just
      > progressively parallel some water heater resistors as the voltage is
      > reaching the max voltage of the inverter!
      >
      >
      > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Doug <dougselsam@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Howdy all:
      > > The regulars here may remember I had finally found a grid-tie inverter
      > > made for wind turbines, made in USA, that rejected overvoltage rather than
      > > being sizzled to a cinder.  It was looking like we would finally be able to
      > > offer a reloiable grid-tie home wind energy package.
      > >
      > > As it turned out, the U.S. company producing these over-voltage-proof
      > > inverters went out-of-business right after I bought one, taken over by
      > > Bergey who, according to Mike, had decided not to sell the inverters to
      > > "competitors".  (My thought was if I were buying these I could be thought
      > > of as a "customer" rather than a "competitor".  One thing I've learned in
      > > business is you don't really know what products you make, that people want,
      > > until the orders start coming in!)
      > >
      > > Anyway these U.S.-made 6 kW inverters are really overkill for my little 2
      > > kW turbine, so really I needed to find a 2 kW inverter that could protect
      > > itself from a wind turbine.  I would have had to connect more than one of
      > > my turbines to a 6 kW inverter to utilize its 6 kW capacity.  I'm glad I at
      > > least have ONE of these reliable 6 kW US-made inverters for my own use!
      > >
      > > So the good news is that our turbines have finally been developed to the
      > > point that the furling is consistent and we never burn out stators anymore
      > > (knock on wood).  So if we had a decent inverter, we might be able to offer
      > > a reliable grid-tie product, as a complete system, or maybe a kit for
      > > do-it-yourselfers and home-builders.  And let's face it, "reliable" is the
      > > only thing that matters.  A burnt or broken turbine (or inverter) does
      > > nobody any good, and burnt or broken is what quickly happens to most
      > > turbine installations (almost every single one of them - the fact that the
      > > veterans know and most people have no clue about).
      > >
      > > Anyway, some may remember that I had been e-mailed by a Chinese company
      > > producing a supposed German design inverter that allegedly featured
      > > overvoltage protection and overcurrent protection.  They offered me a "2
      > > kW" inverter for a certain price in a quote on Sept 15, and I took the bait
      > > and wired funds to China.  I'm used to working with reputable companies in
      > > China, so I felt fairly safe wiring funds over there.
      > >
      > > According to the company now, the inverter they sent was a 1.5 kW
      > > inverter, not the 2 kW inverter I ordered! Guess they were holding out...
      > >  Hey, isn't that dishonest?
      > >
      > > Well the inverter I received DID feature overvoltage disconect/shutoff,
      > > and I even tested it by placing a generator on a lathe and hitting it with
      > > overvoltage.  As advertised, the inverter "let go" of the generator,
      > > without damage, and re-engaged with the generator after the voltage dropped
      > > to acceptable levels.  I ran one turbine into it here at my house for a
      > > couple of months, even in some horrendous winds, and it seemed fine.
      > >
      > > Then we brought this inverter out to one of our test sites, and connected
      > > it to a slightly more powerful turbine (still a SuperTwin(TM)).  We waited
      > > about a week for any winds at all since we were in a calm period.  The
      > > turbine spun up a few times, but there was not much in the way of winds.
      > >  One day (still no wind) I got a call saying there was a permeating smell
      > > characteristic of an electrical fire in the shed out there at our test
      > > site.  (Veterans know this smell.)
      > >
      > > A few days later we had some wind, and the turbine was acting like it was
      > > braked.  As it turned out, the inverter was fried.  We are puzzled as to
      > > how it could have fried when there were no winds to speak of.  My
      > > supposition is that a single gust started up the turbine, and before the
      > > inverter had a chance to connect to the grid and load down the turbine, it
      > > produced a high voltage (running unloaded even in a light wind can generate
      > > high RPM and hence high voltage) and the overvoltage protection circuit did
      > > not catch it, with the result that multiple inverter components were melted
      > > and two capacitors were blown open.  So as it appears, the overvoltage
      > > protection was not 100% reliable.
      > >
      > > The manufacturer in China, so far, has nothing to say except to recommend
      > > that I "replace the capacitors", and that "this is a 1.5 kW inverter".
      > >  Only thing is, they quoted a 2 kW inverter, and I paid for a 2 kW
      > > inverter, and we discussed it as a 2 kW inverter for months before I bought
      > > it - bait and switch?
      > >
      > > Either way, if the inverter's overvoltage protection does not always work,
      > > then what good would a slightly larger inverter do us?
      > >
      > > Of course the company also offers an optional dump load controller with
      > > dump load.  My question is, since a dump load is for protecting batteries
      > > from overcharging, and since this inverter supposedly can protect itself
      > > from overvoltage and overcurrent, why would one need a dump load?  (Unless
      > > the overvoltage and overcurrent porotection were not reliable?)
      > >
      > > Anyway, I remain perplexed that the "small wind industry" seems no further
      > > along than when I first got into it 10 years ago.
      > >
      > > Sure, many companies claim to have reliable products, but show me who has
      > > a reliable installation, say one that has worked for 5 years without any
      > > trouble?  Is there a single such trouble-free installation in the entire
      > > U.S.?
      > >
      > > Southwest Windpower, the market leader in sales, has recently sold off all
      > > its product lines except Skystream to other companies.  That includes the
      > > Whisper line, including the Whisper 200 and 500 models, sold to a company
      > > in India that, according to inside information, is unable to produce a
      > > decent version of any Whisper turbine despite Southwest sending an engineer
      > > over there to help.
      > >
      > > And the "Air" models were sold to a company in Colorado that hired key
      > > Southwest personnel.  If Southwest couldn't make any money on these models,
      > > why would a new company think they could?  Every Air turbine I see in my
      > > travels is not working - they are everywhere!
      > >
      > > My question is, after 10 years of hand-waving and happy-talk about all
      > > these models and how wonderful they are, how could Southwest sell them off?
      > >  According to them, they are in "survival mode".  It seems that the company
      > > could not make any money on these turbines?  And we know from previous
      > > discussions how many Skystreams out there are still having "issues" after
      > > all these years of development.
      > >
      > > The lesson I took away from watching Southwest was to not put out
      > > thousands of turbines until you were sure you had the bugs worked out.
      > >  Otherwise you would be too bogged down fixing broken turbines, while
      > > getting further and further behind in these stacked-up repairs, and
      > > developing a bad name at least among the customers whose sites had too much
      > > wind for the Southwest models...
      > >
      > > And we keep hearing of all the boutiquey high-dollar choices with a
      > > European flavor, but it seems we seldom hear of a happy customer who has
      > > generated an economic return from these ultra-high-priced choices.  Are
      > > they really reliable anyway?  I mean, like a water-heater or washing
      > > machine, where you can figure on getting at least 5 years, maybe 10 or 15
      > > years, of trouble-free service before worrying about reliability at all?
      > >
      > > In the end, I wonder if maybe small wind, like wind energy in general, is
      > > just a bit too complicated for humans to handle.  (We had a man on the moon
      > > before we had a windfarm.)  I mean, after 10 years of beating my head
      > > against the wall, to realize that still, one of the main problems is that
      > > no grid-tie inverter for wind turbines even exists, tells me that all these
      > > programs to promote small wind have really missed the ball while swinging
      > > their large multi-million-dollar bat.
      > >
      > > It also brings to mind a question of what is the difference between a
      > > Barry Madoff and a Solyndra or even a Southwest?  Is any of these companies
      > > really more than a Ponzi-scheme, with a green cloak for an excuse?  One
      > > more way to get one more $10 million cash infusion band-aid?  If they knew
      > > most of their products were not yet reliable, what's the excuse for selling
      > > them in the thousands?  For telling investors to expect a profit?  I've
      > > asked myself, is the only thing that separates a Ponzi scheme from a
      > > "legitimate money-losing company" the excuse that the company has a
      > > complicated story of how it supposedly is going to become profitable at
      > > some point?
      > >
      > > Anyway I am putting out the word to be careful whom you do business with,
      > > and under what conditions.  A company that has no service capability in the
      > > U.S. will not be responsive to product failures.  A company that cannot
      > > send the product that is paid for has bigger problems than the inevitable
      > > failure of its products, since without the basic integrity to ship what is
      > > ordered or to stand behind one's products, there is no hope of doing
      > > long-term business.
      > >
      > > Have a day!
      > > :)
      > > Doug S.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > ==========================================================
      > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
      > >  small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
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      > >  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
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      > >  (and read it on the Web), go to
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      > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
      > >  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
      > >
      > > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Tobias Gogolin
      > Tel. Movistar (646) 124 32 82
      > Tel. Telcel (646) 160 58 99
      > skype: moontogo
      > messenger: usertogo@...
      > First Bitcoin Account: 1LCupcVd8HhAGyVhd3xayPpnQHeis7rAiV
      > Blog: http://zeitgeistensenada.blogspot.com/
      >
      > You develop Sustainable Ranch Technology at
      > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SURA-TECH
      > an Open Source Electric Motor/Alternator at
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Performance_Axial_Flux
      > and an Open Source Motor Controller at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoBox
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >




      ------------------------------------

      ==========================================================
      THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      . Please feel free to send your input to:
        small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
        small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
      . To view previous messages from the list,
        subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
        or stop receiving the list by e-mail
        (and read it on the Web), go to
        http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home
      . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
        http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

      ----------------------------------------------------------
      Yahoo! Groups Links



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Doug
      Hey Jerry: I am really baffled as to how impossible this business is. I talked with a guy at Southwest the other day - they sold off all their models except
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 7, 2013
        Hey Jerry:
        I am really baffled as to how impossible this business is.
        I talked with a guy at Southwest the other day - they sold off all their models except the slipstream. After all those years of complaints, they just had to give up. The one model that had almost no problems, the Whisper 100, is now orphaned, out of production. How weird is that?

        Meanwhile it seems that no simple fact or theme is simple enough. If I point out that no inverter exists for wind turbines, I can't find a single other person who even cares! Yeah sure I can keep making electronics to try and band-aid the situation. Sure I could, and probably will have to, keep working on developing electronic solutions. What choice do I have?
        Or just ignore grid-tie and produce 48-Volt systems.

        Yes I realize I could implement any of these suggestions:
        1) develop my own inverter - OK as one person I am already challenged by wearing too many hats - do I REALLY have to develop the friggin' inverter too? Come on! Is that what all those millions were for, so people could say "develop your own inverter!"?
        2) twist up a bunch of wires and start implementing electronic solutions with nichrome fire-hazard dump loads
        3) Add another few thousand dollars of "wind interface box" solutions with dump loads mounted on walls...
        4) Use batteries
        Um hey this is like if you were invited to the Ritz Carlton and when you got there they told you where to pitch your tent.

        That is my whole point: We've had (at least) 10 years of hype now over windmills and global warming etc. with millions and millions spent, and the conversation is exactly the same!

        "My turbine broke and won't survive!"
        "My turbine cost too much!"
        "I have to do everything myself as though I am camping on Gilligan's Island"
        "I am asked to design my own entire system from scratch as though nobody knows anything and there are no known components that can be relied on to simply "work".

        I don't know what it is going to take to move this business forward but one thing of note is if you find a turbine you like, start multiplying the costs.
        The turbine costs x
        the tower, again costs x
        your inverter cost another x
        the installation and cables cost another x
        so suddenly you are at 4 times the cost if you are lucky.

        That is a challenge for us to overcome and in my opinion the answer is using FEWER components properly designed and arranged, rather than adding more and more components to recuse designs that are not quite 100% effective.

        Doug S.
        (maybe I should forget making my own generators - throw all that work out the window - and find a way to use induction motors... )


        --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, jerry freedomev <freedomev@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > ������������������������������ Hi Doug and All,
        > �
        > ��������������������������������������� Tobias' suggestion can be very reliable and low cost solution to your/our problem to use available PV inverters reliably it seems. Or oversize the inverter. Or use batteries.
        > �
        > ��������������������������������������� Just put a resistor, really just some steel/SS wire/sheet about 12-10gge worth in cross section wound in a coil �and use a contactor that adjusting with a resistor to �it's energizing coil� the voltage it cuts in .� Not much can be more simple, reliable�than that, No?.�
        > �
        > ���������������������������������������� You have been given many solutions including copying the�inverter discontinued.� Personally I don't see why setting the furling speed doesn't limit voltage, keep from burning out alts,�well enough. It has worked on others for 80 yrs.�� Time to pick one or 2.
        > �
        > ��������������������������������������� Maybe the best idea for you is copying the inverter you liked. Maybe get some people together and do it.� It won't cost that much and could become profitable in itself.� I'd join such a group as by next yr I'll need a 2-3kw unit for my units.� Electronics are cheap and done right would likely cost under $400/kw to build.
        > �
        > �������������������������������������� With a 15% hit to eff you could use a DC motor to drive an AC alt to grid for about the same costs.
        > �
        > ������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� Jerry Dycus
        > �
        > �
        > ����������������������������������������
        > ��������������������������������
        > �
        > �
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
        > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 4:48 PM
        > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure
        >
        > Operating without a dump load - riding without training wheels - going to school without your mommy...
        > The idea is that a grid-tie system should not need a dump load if it furls.� Dump loads are for protecting a battery bank.� Even then, why are you still charging a battery bank that is already full in the first place???� If electronics can trigger a dump load, they can maybe be better-used to stop charging so you don't NEED a dump load.
        > An ounce of prevention?
        > The problem with continual additions of bandaids is they never work as well as just doing it right to start with, and every additional component costs money and time and takes up space and causes danger and can fail.� So you gotta keep it cheap and simple.� Many furling turbines such as mine are just fine running unloaded - they just furl a teeny bit more and then they slow down.� No biggie.
        >
        > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@> wrote:
        > >
        > > So you are operating without a dump load?
        > > Your design doesn't overspin? How do you protect the generator?
        > > Imho instead of cutout you should have the inverter directly parallel a
        > > break load?
        > > Maybe even a regular (Solar) Grid Tie Inverter may work if you just
        > > progressively parallel some water heater resistors as the voltage is
        > > reaching the max voltage of the inverter!
        > >
        > >
        > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Doug <dougselsam@> wrote:
        > >
        > > > Howdy all:
        > > > The regulars here may remember I had finally found a grid-tie inverter
        > > > made for wind turbines, made in USA, that rejected overvoltage rather than
        > > > being sizzled to a cinder.� It was looking like we would finally be able to
        > > > offer a reloiable grid-tie home wind energy package.
        > > >
        > > > As it turned out, the U.S. company producing these over-voltage-proof
        > > > inverters went out-of-business right after I bought one, taken over by
        > > > Bergey who, according to Mike, had decided not to sell the inverters to
        > > > "competitors".� (My thought was if I were buying these I could be thought
        > > > of as a "customer" rather than a "competitor".� One thing I've learned in
        > > > business is you don't really know what products you make, that people want,
        > > > until the orders start coming in!)
        > > >
        > > > Anyway these U.S.-made 6 kW inverters are really overkill for my little 2
        > > > kW turbine, so really I needed to find a 2 kW inverter that could protect
        > > > itself from a wind turbine.� I would have had to connect more than one of
        > > > my turbines to a 6 kW inverter to utilize its 6 kW capacity.� I'm glad I at
        > > > least have ONE of these reliable 6 kW US-made inverters for my own use!
        > > >
        > > > So the good news is that our turbines have finally been developed to the
        > > > point that the furling is consistent and we never burn out stators anymore
        > > > (knock on wood).� So if we had a decent inverter, we might be able to offer
        > > > a reliable grid-tie product, as a complete system, or maybe a kit for
        > > > do-it-yourselfers and home-builders.� And let's face it, "reliable" is the
        > > > only thing that matters.� A burnt or broken turbine (or inverter) does
        > > > nobody any good, and burnt or broken is what quickly happens to most
        > > > turbine installations (almost every single one of them - the fact that the
        > > > veterans know and most people have no clue about).
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, some may remember that I had been e-mailed by a Chinese company
        > > > producing a supposed German design inverter that allegedly featured
        > > > overvoltage protection and overcurrent protection.� They offered me a "2
        > > > kW" inverter for a certain price in a quote on Sept 15, and I took the bait
        > > > and wired funds to China.� I'm used to working with reputable companies in
        > > > China, so I felt fairly safe wiring funds over there.
        > > >
        > > > According to the company now, the inverter they sent was a 1.5 kW
        > > > inverter, not the 2 kW inverter I ordered! Guess they were holding out...
        > > >� Hey, isn't that dishonest?
        > > >
        > > > Well the inverter I received DID feature overvoltage disconect/shutoff,
        > > > and I even tested it by placing a generator on a lathe and hitting it with
        > > > overvoltage.� As advertised, the inverter "let go" of the generator,
        > > > without damage, and re-engaged with the generator after the voltage dropped
        > > > to acceptable levels.� I ran one turbine into it here at my house for a
        > > > couple of months, even in some horrendous winds, and it seemed fine.
        > > >
        > > > Then we brought this inverter out to one of our test sites, and connected
        > > > it to a slightly more powerful turbine (still a SuperTwin(TM)).� We waited
        > > > about a week for any winds at all since we were in a calm period.� The
        > > > turbine spun up a few times, but there was not much in the way of winds.
        > > >� One day (still no wind) I got a call saying there was a permeating smell
        > > > characteristic of an electrical fire in the shed out there at our test
        > > > site.� (Veterans know this smell.)
        > > >
        > > > A few days later we had some wind, and the turbine was acting like it was
        > > > braked.� As it turned out, the inverter was fried.� We are puzzled as to
        > > > how it could have fried when there were no winds to speak of.� My
        > > > supposition is that a single gust started up the turbine, and before the
        > > > inverter had a chance to connect to the grid and load down the turbine, it
        > > > produced a high voltage (running unloaded even in a light wind can generate
        > > > high RPM and hence high voltage) and the overvoltage protection circuit did
        > > > not catch it, with the result that multiple inverter components were melted
        > > > and two capacitors were blown open.� So as it appears, the overvoltage
        > > > protection was not 100% reliable.
        > > >
        > > > The manufacturer in China, so far, has nothing to say except to recommend
        > > > that I "replace the capacitors", and that "this is a 1.5 kW inverter".
        > > >� Only thing is, they quoted a 2 kW inverter, and I paid for a 2 kW
        > > > inverter, and we discussed it as a 2 kW inverter for months before I bought
        > > > it - bait and switch?
        > > >
        > > > Either way, if the inverter's overvoltage protection does not always work,
        > > > then what good would a slightly larger inverter do us?
        > > >
        > > > Of course the company also offers an optional dump load controller with
        > > > dump load.� My question is, since a dump load is for protecting batteries
        > > > from overcharging, and since this inverter supposedly can protect itself
        > > > from overvoltage and overcurrent, why would one need a dump load?� (Unless
        > > > the overvoltage and overcurrent porotection were not reliable?)
        > > >
        > > > Anyway, I remain perplexed that the "small wind industry" seems no further
        > > > along than when I first got into it 10 years ago.
        > > >
        > > > Sure, many companies claim to have reliable products, but show me who has
        > > > a reliable installation, say one that has worked for 5 years without any
        > > > trouble?� Is there a single such trouble-free installation in the entire
        > > > U.S.?
        > > >
        > > > Southwest Windpower, the market leader in sales, has recently sold off all
        > > > its product lines except Skystream to other companies.� That includes the
        > > > Whisper line, including the Whisper 200 and 500 models, sold to a company
        > > > in India that, according to inside information, is unable to produce a
        > > > decent version of any Whisper turbine despite Southwest sending an engineer
        > > > over there to help.
        > > >
        > > > And the "Air" models were sold to a company in Colorado that hired key
        > > > Southwest personnel.� If Southwest couldn't make any money on these models,
        > > > why would a new company think they could?� Every Air turbine I see in my
        > > > travels is not working - they are everywhere!
        > > >
        > > > My question is, after 10 years of hand-waving and happy-talk about all
        > > > these models and how wonderful they are, how could Southwest sell them off?
        > > >� According to them, they are in "survival mode".� It seems that the company
        > > > could not make any money on these turbines?� And we know from previous
        > > > discussions how many Skystreams out there are still having "issues" after
        > > > all these years of development.
        > > >
        > > > The lesson I took away from watching Southwest was to not put out
        > > > thousands of turbines until you were sure you had the bugs worked out.
        > > >� Otherwise you would be too bogged down fixing broken turbines, while
        > > > getting further and further behind in these stacked-up repairs, and
        > > > developing a bad name at least among the customers whose sites had too much
        > > > wind for the Southwest models...
        > > >
        > > > And we keep hearing of all the boutiquey high-dollar choices with a
        > > > European flavor, but it seems we seldom hear of a happy customer who has
        > > > generated an economic return from these ultra-high-priced choices.� Are
        > > > they really reliable anyway?� I mean, like a water-heater or washing
        > > > machine, where you can figure on getting at least 5 years, maybe 10 or 15
        > > > years, of trouble-free service before worrying about reliability at all?
        > > >
        > > > In the end, I wonder if maybe small wind, like wind energy in general, is
        > > > just a bit too complicated for humans to handle.� (We had a man on the moon
        > > > before we had a windfarm.)� I mean, after 10 years of beating my head
        > > > against the wall, to realize that still, one of the main problems is that
        > > > no grid-tie inverter for wind turbines even exists, tells me that all these
        > > > programs to promote small wind have really missed the ball while swinging
        > > > their large multi-million-dollar bat.
        > > >
        > > > It also brings to mind a question of what is the difference between a
        > > > Barry Madoff and a Solyndra or even a Southwest?� Is any of these companies
        > > > really more than a Ponzi-scheme, with a green cloak for an excuse?� One
        > > > more way to get one more $10 million cash infusion band-aid?� If they knew
        > > > most of their products were not yet reliable, what's the excuse for selling
        > > > them in the thousands?� For telling investors to expect a profit?� I've
        > > > asked myself, is the only thing that separates a Ponzi scheme from a
        > > > "legitimate money-losing company" the excuse that the company has a
        > > > complicated story of how it supposedly is going to become profitable at
        > > > some point?
        > > >
        > > > Anyway I am putting out the word to be careful whom you do business with,
        > > > and under what conditions.� A company that has no service capability in the
        > > > U.S. will not be responsive to product failures.� A company that cannot
        > > > send the product that is paid for has bigger problems than the inevitable
        > > > failure of its products, since without the basic integrity to ship what is
        > > > ordered or to stand behind one's products, there is no hope of doing
        > > > long-term business.
        > > >
        > > > Have a day!
        > > > :)
        > > > Doug S.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ------------------------------------
        > > >
        > > > ==========================================================
        > > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
        > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
        > > >� small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
        > > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
        > > >� small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > > . To view previous messages from the list,
        > > >� subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
        > > >� or stop receiving the list by e-mail
        > > >� (and read it on the Web), go to
        > > >� http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
        > > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
        > > >� http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
        > > >
        > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Tobias Gogolin
        > > Tel. Movistar (646) 124 32 82
        > > Tel. Telcel (646) 160 58 99
        > > skype: moontogo
        > > messenger: usertogo@
        > > First Bitcoin Account: 1LCupcVd8HhAGyVhd3xayPpnQHeis7rAiV
        > > Blog: http://zeitgeistensenada.blogspot.com/
        > >
        > > You develop Sustainable Ranch Technology at
        > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SURA-TECH
        > > an Open Source Electric Motor/Alternator at
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Performance_Axial_Flux
        > > and an Open Source Motor Controller at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoBox
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > ==========================================================
        > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > . Please feel free to send your input to:
        > � small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
        > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
        > � small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > . To view previous messages from the list,
        > � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
        > � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
        > � (and read it on the Web), go to
        > � http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .�
        > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
        > � http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • jerry freedomev
        � ������������������������������ Hi Doug and All, � ��������������������������������������� It wouldn t be work if it wasc easy ;^P �
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 7, 2013
           
                                         Hi Doug and All,
           
                                                  It wouldn't be work if it wasc easy ;^P
           
                                                   The low cost solution is $400 worth of batteries every 5-7 yrs which also has multiple other advantages stabilizing the system.


          ________________________________
          From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
          To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, March 7, 2013 10:34 AM
          Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure


          Hey Jerry:
          I am really baffled as to how impossible this business is.
          I talked with a guy at Southwest the other day - they sold off all their models except the slipstream.  After all those years of complaints, they just had to give up.  The one model that had almost no problems, the Whisper 100, is now orphaned, out of production.  How weird is that?

          -----------  Get one, copy, improve it!


          Meanwhile it seems that no simple fact or theme is simple enough.  If I point out that no inverter exists for wind turbines, I can't find a single other person who even cares!  Yeah sure I can keep making electronics to try and band-aid the situation.  Sure I could, and probably will have to, keep working on developing electronic solutions.  What choice do I have?
          Or just ignore grid-tie and produce 48-Volt systems.

          -----------   I kind of though 48vdc was a good grid tie system for many reasons well worth the cost while making grid tie inverter cost less, even enough to pay for the battery cost for 10 yrs.  My goal is cost effective, not purity.

          Yes I realize I could implement any of these suggestions:
          1) develop my own inverter - OK as one person I am already challenged by wearing too many hats - do I REALLY have to develop the friggin'  inverter too?  Come on!  Is that what all those millions were for, so people could say "develop your own inverter!"?

          ------------  I said start a group to copy the one you like. I do electronics and it's not that hard.  It can be profitable too. What is not to like? Probably take less time thank you use for this list. Cost 25% of retail. And I said I cared ;^P 

          2) twist up a bunch of wires and start implementing electronic solutions with nichrome fire-hazard dump loads

          ----------- Now you are being silly.  It's easy to make them not cause fires and a reasonable solution as you won't take the other ones. You can buy them already made, easy to do, just wire them in.

          3) Add another few thousand dollars of "wind interface box" solutions with dump loads mounted on walls...
          4) Use batteries

          ----------- Now you are getting there!!   Instead of looking at the battery cost, look at it's savings!  You'll find them worth the money.

          Um hey this is like if you were invited to the Ritz Carlton and when you got there they told you where to pitch your tent.

          That is my whole point: We've had (at least) 10 years of hype now over windmills and global warming etc. with millions and millions spent, and the conversation is exactly the same!

          "My turbine broke and won't survive!"
          "My turbine cost too much!"
          "I have to do everything myself as though I am camping on Gilligan's Island"
          "I am asked to design my own entire system from scratch as though nobody knows anything and there are no known components that can be relied on to simply "work".

          ----------- Not all WT's do this and as shown older ones still work 80 yrs later shows it can be done. I have solutions so I'm not upset.   Later better ones will come around as WT's take off.  Don't let perfect be the enemy of really good.

          I don't know what it is going to take to move this business forward but one thing of note is if you find a turbine you like, start  multiplying the costs.
          The turbine costs x
          the tower, again costs x
          your inverter cost another x
          the installation and cables cost another x
          so suddenly you are at 4 times the cost if you are lucky.

          -----------     Mine are about 2x;s WT costs for all you mention or less using standard GT inverters and batteries.  If your cables, inverter, tower, WT all cost the same you need to shop/chose better.   Mine will likely be delivered on a trailer which also is the tower base which the tower hinges up on by a power winch cuts the costs a lot. 


          That is a challenge for us to overcome and in my opinion the answer is using FEWER components properly designed and arranged, rather than adding more and more components to recuse designs that are not quite 100% effective.

          -------------    Then you need to go to shunt regulated alternators.  Again I don't see why furling and a voltage clamp can't give you the protection you need.
                           Induction or multiple pole alts are a choice just trading E control for rotor speed control which isn't a bad one at all.  Nando's pitch systen would work nicely at that. My semi-variable rotor would increase wind range by 50-100% vs fixed is another less complicated choice.

                                                                      Jerry Dycus

           
          Doug S.
          (maybe I should forget making my own generators - throw all that work out the window - and find a way to use induction motors... )


          --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, jerry freedomev <freedomev@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > ������������������������������ Hi Doug and All,
          > �
          > ��������������������������������������� Tobias' suggestion can be very reliable and low cost solution to your/our problem to use available PV inverters reliably it seems. Or oversize the inverter. Or use batteries.
          > �
          > ��������������������������������������� Just put a resistor, really just some steel/SS wire/sheet about 12-10gge worth in cross section wound in a coil �and use a contactor that adjusting with a resistor to �it's energizing coil� the voltage it cuts in .� Not much can be more simple, reliable�than that, No?.�
          > �
          > ���������������������������������������� You have been given many solutions including copying the�inverter discontinued.� Personally I don't see why setting the furling speed doesn't limit voltage, keep from burning out alts,�well enough. It has worked on others for 80 yrs.�� Time to pick one or 2.
          > �
          > ��������������������������������������� Maybe the best idea for you is copying the inverter you liked. Maybe get some people together and do it.� It won't cost that much and could become profitable in itself.� I'd join such a group as by next yr I'll need a 2-3kw unit for my units.� Electronics are cheap and done right would likely cost under $400/kw to build.
          > �
          > �������������������������������������� With a 15% hit to eff you could use a DC motor to drive an AC alt to grid for about the same costs.
          > �
          > ������������������������������������������������������������������������������������� Jerry Dycus
          > �
          > �
          > ����������������������������������������
          > ��������������������������������
          > �
          > �
          >
          > ________________________________
          >  From: Doug <dougselsam@...>
          > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2013 4:48 PM
          > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure

          > Operating without a dump load - riding without training wheels - going to school without your mommy...
          > The idea is that a grid-tie system should not need a dump load if it furls.� Dump loads are for protecting a battery bank.� Even then, why are you still charging a battery bank that is already full in the first place???� If electronics can trigger a dump load, they can maybe be better-used to stop charging so you don't NEED a dump load.
          > An ounce of prevention?
          > The problem with continual additions of bandaids is they never work as well as just doing it right to start with, and every additional component costs money and time and takes up space and causes danger and can fail.� So you gotta keep it cheap and simple.� Many furling turbines such as mine are just fine running unloaded - they just furl a teeny bit more and then they slow down.� No biggie.
          >
          > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@> wrote:
          > >
          > > So you are operating without a dump load?
          > > Your design doesn't overspin? How do you protect the generator?
          > > Imho instead of cutout you should have the inverter directly parallel a
          > > break load?
          > > Maybe even a regular (Solar) Grid Tie Inverter may work if you just
          > > progressively parallel some water heater resistors as the voltage is
          > > reaching the max voltage of the inverter!
          > >
          > >
          > > On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Doug <dougselsam@> wrote:
          > >
          > > > Howdy all:
          > > > The regulars here may remember I had finally found a grid-tie inverter
          > > > made for wind turbines, made in USA, that rejected overvoltage rather than
          > > > being sizzled to a cinder.� It was looking like we would finally be able to
          > > > offer a reloiable grid-tie home wind energy package.
          > > >
          > > > As it turned out, the U.S. company producing these over-voltage-proof
          > > > inverters went out-of-business right after I bought one, taken over by
          > > > Bergey who, according to Mike, had decided not to sell the inverters to
          > > > "competitors".� (My thought was if I were buying these I could be thought
          > > > of as a "customer" rather than a "competitor".� One thing I've learned in
          > > > business is you don't really know what products you make, that people want,
          > > > until the orders start coming in!)
          > > >
          > > > Anyway these U.S.-made 6 kW inverters are really overkill for my little 2
          > > > kW turbine, so really I needed to find a 2 kW inverter that could protect
          > > > itself from a wind turbine.� I would have had to connect more than one of
          > > > my turbines to a 6 kW inverter to utilize its 6 kW capacity.� I'm glad I at
          > > > least have ONE of these reliable 6 kW US-made inverters for my own use!
          > > >
          > > > So the good news is that our turbines have finally been developed to the
          > > > point that the furling is consistent and we never burn out stators anymore
          > > > (knock on wood).� So if we had a decent inverter, we might be able to offer
          > > > a reliable grid-tie product, as a complete system, or maybe a kit for
          > > > do-it-yourselfers and home-builders.� And let's face it, "reliable" is the
          > > > only thing that matters.� A burnt or broken turbine (or inverter) does
          > > > nobody any good, and burnt or broken is what quickly happens to most
          > > > turbine installations (almost every single one of them - the fact that the
          > > > veterans know and most people have no clue about).
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, some may remember that I had been e-mailed by a Chinese company
          > > > producing a supposed German design inverter that allegedly featured
          > > > overvoltage protection and overcurrent protection.� They offered me a "2
          > > > kW" inverter for a certain price in a quote on Sept 15, and I took the bait
          > > > and wired funds to China.� I'm used to working with reputable companies in
          > > > China, so I felt fairly safe wiring funds over there.
          > > >
          > > > According to the company now, the inverter they sent was a 1.5 kW
          > > > inverter, not the 2 kW inverter I ordered! Guess they were holding out...
          > > >� Hey, isn't that dishonest?
          > > >
          > > > Well the inverter I received DID feature overvoltage disconect/shutoff,
          > > > and I even tested it by placing a generator on a lathe and hitting it with
          > > > overvoltage.� As advertised, the inverter "let go" of the generator,
          > > > without damage, and re-engaged with the generator after the voltage dropped
          > > > to acceptable levels.� I ran one turbine into it here at my house for a
          > > > couple of months, even in some horrendous winds, and it seemed fine.
          > > >
          > > > Then we brought this inverter out to one of our test sites, and connected
          > > > it to a slightly more powerful turbine (still a SuperTwin(TM)).� We waited
          > > > about a week for any winds at all since we were in a calm period.� The
          > > > turbine spun up a few times, but there was not much in the way of winds.
          > > >� One day (still no wind) I got a call saying there was a permeating smell
          > > > characteristic of an electrical fire in the shed out there at our test
          > > > site.� (Veterans know this smell.)
          > > >
          > > > A few days later we had some wind, and the turbine was acting like it was
          > > > braked.� As it turned out, the inverter was fried.� We are puzzled as to
          > > > how it could have fried when there were no winds to speak of.� My
          > > > supposition is that a single gust started up the turbine, and before the
          > > > inverter had a chance to connect to the grid and load down the turbine, it
          > > > produced a high voltage (running unloaded even in a light wind can generate
          > > > high RPM and hence high voltage) and the overvoltage protection circuit did
          > > > not catch it, with the result that multiple inverter components were melted
          > > > and two capacitors were blown open.� So as it appears, the overvoltage
          > > > protection was not 100% reliable.
          > > >
          > > > The manufacturer in China, so far, has nothing to say except to recommend
          > > > that I "replace the capacitors", and that "this is a 1.5 kW inverter".
          > > >� Only thing is, they quoted a 2 kW inverter, and I paid for a 2 kW
          > > > inverter, and we discussed it as a 2 kW inverter for months before I bought
          > > > it - bait and switch?
          > > >
          > > > Either way, if the inverter's overvoltage protection does not always work,
          > > > then what good would a slightly larger inverter do us?
          > > >
          > > > Of course the company also offers an optional dump load controller with
          > > > dump load.� My question is, since a dump load is for protecting batteries
          > > > from overcharging, and since this inverter supposedly can protect itself
          > > > from overvoltage and overcurrent, why would one need a dump load?� (Unless
          > > > the overvoltage and overcurrent porotection were not reliable?)
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, I remain perplexed that the "small wind industry" seems no further
          > > > along than when I first got into it 10 years ago.
          > > >
          > > > Sure, many companies claim to have reliable products, but show me who has
          > > > a reliable installation, say one that has worked for 5 years without any
          > > > trouble?� Is there a single such trouble-free installation in the entire
          > > > U.S.?
          > > >
          > > > Southwest Windpower, the market leader in sales, has recently sold off all
          > > > its product lines except Skystream to other companies.� That includes the
          > > > Whisper line, including the Whisper 200 and 500 models, sold to a company
          > > > in India that, according to inside information, is unable to produce a
          > > > decent version of any Whisper turbine despite Southwest sending an engineer
          > > > over there to help.
          > > >
          > > > And the "Air" models were sold to a company in Colorado that hired key
          > > > Southwest personnel.� If Southwest couldn't make any money on these models,
          > > > why would a new company think they could?� Every Air turbine I see in my
          > > > travels is not working - they are everywhere!
          > > >
          > > > My question is, after 10 years of hand-waving and happy-talk about all
          > > > these models and how wonderful they are, how could Southwest sell them off?
          > > >� According to them, they are in "survival mode".� It seems that the company
          > > > could not make any money on these turbines?� And we know from previous
          > > > discussions how many Skystreams out there are still having "issues" after
          > > > all these years of development.
          > > >
          > > > The lesson I took away from watching Southwest was to not put out
          > > > thousands of turbines until you were sure you had the bugs worked out.
          > > >� Otherwise you would be too bogged down fixing broken turbines, while
          > > > getting further and further behind in these stacked-up repairs, and
          > > > developing a bad name at least among the customers whose sites had too much
          > > > wind for the Southwest models...
          > > >
          > > > And we keep hearing of all the boutiquey high-dollar choices with a
          > > > European flavor, but it seems we seldom hear of a happy customer who has
          > > > generated an economic return from these ultra-high-priced choices.� Are
          > > > they really reliable anyway?� I mean, like a water-heater or washing
          > > > machine, where you can figure on getting at least 5 years, maybe 10 or 15
          > > > years, of trouble-free service before worrying about reliability at all?
          > > >
          > > > In the end, I wonder if maybe small wind, like wind energy in general, is
          > > > just a bit too complicated for humans to handle.� (We had a man on the moon
          > > > before we had a windfarm.)� I mean, after 10 years of beating my head
          > > > against the wall, to realize that still, one of the main problems is that
          > > > no grid-tie inverter for wind turbines even exists, tells me that all these
          > > > programs to promote small wind have really missed the ball while swinging
          > > > their large multi-million-dollar bat.
          > > >
          > > > It also brings to mind a question of what is the difference between a
          > > > Barry Madoff and a Solyndra or even a Southwest?� Is any of these companies
          > > > really more than a Ponzi-scheme, with a green cloak for an excuse?� One
          > > > more way to get one more $10 million cash infusion band-aid?� If they knew
          > > > most of their products were not yet reliable, what's the excuse for selling
          > > > them in the thousands?� For telling investors to expect a profit?� I've
          > > > asked myself, is the only thing that separates a Ponzi scheme from a
          > > > "legitimate money-losing company" the excuse that the company has a
          > > > complicated story of how it supposedly is going to become profitable at
          > > > some point?
          > > >
          > > > Anyway I am putting out the word to be careful whom you do business with,
          > > > and under what conditions.� A company that has no service capability in the
          > > > U.S. will not be responsive to product failures.� A company that cannot
          > > > send the product that is paid for has bigger problems than the inevitable
          > > > failure of its products, since without the basic integrity to ship what is
          > > > ordered or to stand behind one's products, there is no hope of doing
          > > > long-term business.
          > > >
          > > > Have a day!
          > > > :)
          > > > Doug S.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------
          > > >
          > > > ==========================================================
          > > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
          > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
          > > >� small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
          > > >� small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > . To view previous messages from the list,
          > > >�  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
          > > >�  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
          > > >�  (and read it on the Web), go to
          > > >� http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
          > > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
          > > >� http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
          > > >
          > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --
          > > Tobias Gogolin
          > > Tel. Movistar (646) 124 32 82
          > > Tel. Telcel (646) 160 58 99
          > > skype: moontogo
          > > messenger: usertogo@
          > > First Bitcoin Account: 1LCupcVd8HhAGyVhd3xayPpnQHeis7rAiV
          > > Blog: http://zeitgeistensenada.blogspot.com/
          > >
          > > You develop Sustainable Ranch Technology at
          > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SURA-TECH
          > > an Open Source Electric Motor/Alternator at
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Performance_Axial_Flux
          > > and an Open Source Motor Controller at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoBox
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > ==========================================================
          > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > . Please feel free to send your input to:
          > � small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
          > � small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > . To view previous messages from the list,
          > � subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
          > � or stop receiving the list by e-mail
          > � (and read it on the Web), go to
          > � http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .�
          > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
          > � http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
          >
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




          ------------------------------------

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          . Please feel free to send your input to:
            small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
            small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          . To view previous messages from the list,
            subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
            or stop receiving the list by e-mail
            (and read it on the Web), go to
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            http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

          ----------------------------------------------------------
          Yahoo! Groups Links



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Bruninga
          I have not been following this thread at all, but why not use solar Microinverters? Use a noiminal 48v turbine and feed as many 24v solar microinverters in
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 8, 2013
            I have not been following this thread at all, but why not use solar
            Microinverters?

            Use a noiminal 48v turbine and feed as many 24v solar microinverters in
            series parallel are needed to handle the power? I see 500W microinverters
            and they operate with a nominal 30v input (peak of 55v) So each pair in
            series will give 1 kW and accept an input from below 48v up to 110v DC
            (assuming their inputs are isolated).

            I am sure this has been discussed before, if so, don't shoot me. Just a
            thought.
            Bob, WB4aPR

            -----Original Message-----
            From: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug
            Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:11 PM
            To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure

            Howdy all:
            The regulars here may remember I had finally found a grid-tie inverter
            made for wind turbines, made in USA, that rejected overvoltage rather than
            being sizzled to a cinder. It was looking like we would finally be able
            to offer a reloiable grid-tie home wind energy package.

            As it turned out, the U.S. company producing these over-voltage-proof
            inverters went out-of-business right after I bought one, taken over by
            Bergey who, according to Mike, had decided not to sell the inverters to
            "competitors". (My thought was if I were buying these I could be thought
            of as a "customer" rather than a "competitor". One thing I've learned in
            business is you don't really know what products you make, that people
            want, until the orders start coming in!)

            Anyway these U.S.-made 6 kW inverters are really overkill for my little 2
            kW turbine, so really I needed to find a 2 kW inverter that could protect
            itself from a wind turbine. I would have had to connect more than one of
            my turbines to a 6 kW inverter to utilize its 6 kW capacity. I'm glad I
            at least have ONE of these reliable 6 kW US-made inverters for my own use!

            So the good news is that our turbines have finally been developed to the
            point that the furling is consistent and we never burn out stators anymore
            (knock on wood). So if we had a decent inverter, we might be able to
            offer a reliable grid-tie product, as a complete system, or maybe a kit
            for do-it-yourselfers and home-builders. And let's face it, "reliable" is
            the only thing that matters. A burnt or broken turbine (or inverter) does
            nobody any good, and burnt or broken is what quickly happens to most
            turbine installations (almost every single one of them - the fact that the
            veterans know and most people have no clue about).

            Anyway, some may remember that I had been e-mailed by a Chinese company
            producing a supposed German design inverter that allegedly featured
            overvoltage protection and overcurrent protection. They offered me a "2
            kW" inverter for a certain price in a quote on Sept 15, and I took the
            bait and wired funds to China. I'm used to working with reputable
            companies in China, so I felt fairly safe wiring funds over there.

            According to the company now, the inverter they sent was a 1.5 kW
            inverter, not the 2 kW inverter I ordered! Guess they were holding out...
            Hey, isn't that dishonest?

            Well the inverter I received DID feature overvoltage disconect/shutoff,
            and I even tested it by placing a generator on a lathe and hitting it with
            overvoltage. As advertised, the inverter "let go" of the generator,
            without damage, and re-engaged with the generator after the voltage
            dropped to acceptable levels. I ran one turbine into it here at my house
            for a couple of months, even in some horrendous winds, and it seemed fine.

            Then we brought this inverter out to one of our test sites, and connected
            it to a slightly more powerful turbine (still a SuperTwin(TM)). We waited
            about a week for any winds at all since we were in a calm period. The
            turbine spun up a few times, but there was not much in the way of winds.
            One day (still no wind) I got a call saying there was a permeating smell
            characteristic of an electrical fire in the shed out there at our test
            site. (Veterans know this smell.)

            A few days later we had some wind, and the turbine was acting like it was
            braked. As it turned out, the inverter was fried. We are puzzled as to
            how it could have fried when there were no winds to speak of. My
            supposition is that a single gust started up the turbine, and before the
            inverter had a chance to connect to the grid and load down the turbine, it
            produced a high voltage (running unloaded even in a light wind can
            generate high RPM and hence high voltage) and the overvoltage protection
            circuit did not catch it, with the result that multiple inverter
            components were melted and two capacitors were blown open. So as it
            appears, the overvoltage protection was not 100% reliable.

            The manufacturer in China, so far, has nothing to say except to recommend
            that I "replace the capacitors", and that "this is a 1.5 kW inverter".
            Only thing is, they quoted a 2 kW inverter, and I paid for a 2 kW
            inverter, and we discussed it as a 2 kW inverter for months before I
            bought it - bait and switch?

            Either way, if the inverter's overvoltage protection does not always work,
            then what good would a slightly larger inverter do us?

            Of course the company also offers an optional dump load controller with
            dump load. My question is, since a dump load is for protecting batteries
            from overcharging, and since this inverter supposedly can protect itself
            from overvoltage and overcurrent, why would one need a dump load? (Unless
            the overvoltage and overcurrent porotection were not reliable?)

            Anyway, I remain perplexed that the "small wind industry" seems no further
            along than when I first got into it 10 years ago.

            Sure, many companies claim to have reliable products, but show me who has
            a reliable installation, say one that has worked for 5 years without any
            trouble? Is there a single such trouble-free installation in the entire
            U.S.?

            Southwest Windpower, the market leader in sales, has recently sold off all
            its product lines except Skystream to other companies. That includes the
            Whisper line, including the Whisper 200 and 500 models, sold to a company
            in India that, according to inside information, is unable to produce a
            decent version of any Whisper turbine despite Southwest sending an
            engineer over there to help.

            And the "Air" models were sold to a company in Colorado that hired key
            Southwest personnel. If Southwest couldn't make any money on these
            models, why would a new company think they could? Every Air turbine I see
            in my travels is not working - they are everywhere!

            My question is, after 10 years of hand-waving and happy-talk about all
            these models and how wonderful they are, how could Southwest sell them
            off? According to them, they are in "survival mode". It seems that the
            company could not make any money on these turbines? And we know from
            previous discussions how many Skystreams out there are still having
            "issues" after all these years of development.

            The lesson I took away from watching Southwest was to not put out
            thousands of turbines until you were sure you had the bugs worked out.
            Otherwise you would be too bogged down fixing broken turbines, while
            getting further and further behind in these stacked-up repairs, and
            developing a bad name at least among the customers whose sites had too
            much wind for the Southwest models...

            And we keep hearing of all the boutiquey high-dollar choices with a
            European flavor, but it seems we seldom hear of a happy customer who has
            generated an economic return from these ultra-high-priced choices. Are
            they really reliable anyway? I mean, like a water-heater or washing
            machine, where you can figure on getting at least 5 years, maybe 10 or 15
            years, of trouble-free service before worrying about reliability at all?

            In the end, I wonder if maybe small wind, like wind energy in general, is
            just a bit too complicated for humans to handle. (We had a man on the
            moon before we had a windfarm.) I mean, after 10 years of beating my head
            against the wall, to realize that still, one of the main problems is that
            no grid-tie inverter for wind turbines even exists, tells me that all
            these programs to promote small wind have really missed the ball while
            swinging their large multi-million-dollar bat.

            It also brings to mind a question of what is the difference between a
            Barry Madoff and a Solyndra or even a Southwest? Is any of these
            companies really more than a Ponzi-scheme, with a green cloak for an
            excuse? One more way to get one more $10 million cash infusion band-aid?
            If they knew most of their products were not yet reliable, what's the
            excuse for selling them in the thousands? For telling investors to expect
            a profit? I've asked myself, is the only thing that separates a Ponzi
            scheme from a "legitimate money-losing company" the excuse that the
            company has a complicated story of how it supposedly is going to become
            profitable at some point?

            Anyway I am putting out the word to be careful whom you do business with,
            and under what conditions. A company that has no service capability in
            the U.S. will not be responsive to product failures. A company that
            cannot send the product that is paid for has bigger problems than the
            inevitable failure of its products, since without the basic integrity to
            ship what is ordered or to stand behind one's products, there is no hope
            of doing long-term business.

            Have a day!
            :)
            Doug S.





            ------------------------------------

            ==========================================================
            THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            . Please feel free to send your input to:
            small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
            small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            . To view previous messages from the list,
            subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
            or stop receiving the list by e-mail
            (and read it on the Web), go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
            . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
            http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .

            ----------------------------------------------------------
            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Doug
            OK so you said peak of 55v - so when the turbine starts up... And the inverters begin sensing the grid... but not loading down the turbine yet... And the
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 9, 2013
              OK so you said "peak of 55v" -
              so when the turbine starts up...
              And the inverters begin sensing the grid...
              but not loading down the turbine yet...
              And the turbine exceeds 55 Volts, being unloaded
              What happens to the inverter(s)?
              What happens if the wind is very strong and yo have a momentary high voltage event?
              What happens to these inverters when the grid goes down?
              Do these inverters have 3-phase input?
              No, well OK do they have overvoltage protection?
              Maybe I'm missing something but there doesn't seem to be anything new here except now you are using an inverter that is too small so you have to run a few together.
              You COULD use a 500-Watt inverter for a 2 kW turbine MOST of the time - well heck most of the time the wind is not even blowing. And you might be able to have a few inverters sequentially engage somehow as needed. But that doesn't seem to address the issue of no inverters designed for wind turbines being available.



              --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Robert Bruninga <wb4apr@...> wrote:
              >
              > I have not been following this thread at all, but why not use solar
              > Microinverters?
              >
              > Use a noiminal 48v turbine and feed as many 24v solar microinverters in
              > series parallel are needed to handle the power? I see 500W microinverters
              > and they operate with a nominal 30v input (peak of 55v) So each pair in
              > series will give 1 kW and accept an input from below 48v up to 110v DC
              > (assuming their inputs are isolated).
              >
              > I am sure this has been discussed before, if so, don't shoot me. Just a
              > thought.
              > Bob, WB4aPR
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug
              > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:11 PM
              > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure
              >
              > Howdy all:
              > The regulars here may remember I had finally found a grid-tie inverter
              > made for wind turbines, made in USA, that rejected overvoltage rather than
              > being sizzled to a cinder. It was looking like we would finally be able
              > to offer a reloiable grid-tie home wind energy package.
              >
              > As it turned out, the U.S. company producing these over-voltage-proof
              > inverters went out-of-business right after I bought one, taken over by
              > Bergey who, according to Mike, had decided not to sell the inverters to
              > "competitors". (My thought was if I were buying these I could be thought
              > of as a "customer" rather than a "competitor". One thing I've learned in
              > business is you don't really know what products you make, that people
              > want, until the orders start coming in!)
              >
              > Anyway these U.S.-made 6 kW inverters are really overkill for my little 2
              > kW turbine, so really I needed to find a 2 kW inverter that could protect
              > itself from a wind turbine. I would have had to connect more than one of
              > my turbines to a 6 kW inverter to utilize its 6 kW capacity. I'm glad I
              > at least have ONE of these reliable 6 kW US-made inverters for my own use!
              >
              > So the good news is that our turbines have finally been developed to the
              > point that the furling is consistent and we never burn out stators anymore
              > (knock on wood). So if we had a decent inverter, we might be able to
              > offer a reliable grid-tie product, as a complete system, or maybe a kit
              > for do-it-yourselfers and home-builders. And let's face it, "reliable" is
              > the only thing that matters. A burnt or broken turbine (or inverter) does
              > nobody any good, and burnt or broken is what quickly happens to most
              > turbine installations (almost every single one of them - the fact that the
              > veterans know and most people have no clue about).
              >
              > Anyway, some may remember that I had been e-mailed by a Chinese company
              > producing a supposed German design inverter that allegedly featured
              > overvoltage protection and overcurrent protection. They offered me a "2
              > kW" inverter for a certain price in a quote on Sept 15, and I took the
              > bait and wired funds to China. I'm used to working with reputable
              > companies in China, so I felt fairly safe wiring funds over there.
              >
              > According to the company now, the inverter they sent was a 1.5 kW
              > inverter, not the 2 kW inverter I ordered! Guess they were holding out...
              > Hey, isn't that dishonest?
              >
              > Well the inverter I received DID feature overvoltage disconect/shutoff,
              > and I even tested it by placing a generator on a lathe and hitting it with
              > overvoltage. As advertised, the inverter "let go" of the generator,
              > without damage, and re-engaged with the generator after the voltage
              > dropped to acceptable levels. I ran one turbine into it here at my house
              > for a couple of months, even in some horrendous winds, and it seemed fine.
              >
              > Then we brought this inverter out to one of our test sites, and connected
              > it to a slightly more powerful turbine (still a SuperTwin(TM)). We waited
              > about a week for any winds at all since we were in a calm period. The
              > turbine spun up a few times, but there was not much in the way of winds.
              > One day (still no wind) I got a call saying there was a permeating smell
              > characteristic of an electrical fire in the shed out there at our test
              > site. (Veterans know this smell.)
              >
              > A few days later we had some wind, and the turbine was acting like it was
              > braked. As it turned out, the inverter was fried. We are puzzled as to
              > how it could have fried when there were no winds to speak of. My
              > supposition is that a single gust started up the turbine, and before the
              > inverter had a chance to connect to the grid and load down the turbine, it
              > produced a high voltage (running unloaded even in a light wind can
              > generate high RPM and hence high voltage) and the overvoltage protection
              > circuit did not catch it, with the result that multiple inverter
              > components were melted and two capacitors were blown open. So as it
              > appears, the overvoltage protection was not 100% reliable.
              >
              > The manufacturer in China, so far, has nothing to say except to recommend
              > that I "replace the capacitors", and that "this is a 1.5 kW inverter".
              > Only thing is, they quoted a 2 kW inverter, and I paid for a 2 kW
              > inverter, and we discussed it as a 2 kW inverter for months before I
              > bought it - bait and switch?
              >
              > Either way, if the inverter's overvoltage protection does not always work,
              > then what good would a slightly larger inverter do us?
              >
              > Of course the company also offers an optional dump load controller with
              > dump load. My question is, since a dump load is for protecting batteries
              > from overcharging, and since this inverter supposedly can protect itself
              > from overvoltage and overcurrent, why would one need a dump load? (Unless
              > the overvoltage and overcurrent porotection were not reliable?)
              >
              > Anyway, I remain perplexed that the "small wind industry" seems no further
              > along than when I first got into it 10 years ago.
              >
              > Sure, many companies claim to have reliable products, but show me who has
              > a reliable installation, say one that has worked for 5 years without any
              > trouble? Is there a single such trouble-free installation in the entire
              > U.S.?
              >
              > Southwest Windpower, the market leader in sales, has recently sold off all
              > its product lines except Skystream to other companies. That includes the
              > Whisper line, including the Whisper 200 and 500 models, sold to a company
              > in India that, according to inside information, is unable to produce a
              > decent version of any Whisper turbine despite Southwest sending an
              > engineer over there to help.
              >
              > And the "Air" models were sold to a company in Colorado that hired key
              > Southwest personnel. If Southwest couldn't make any money on these
              > models, why would a new company think they could? Every Air turbine I see
              > in my travels is not working - they are everywhere!
              >
              > My question is, after 10 years of hand-waving and happy-talk about all
              > these models and how wonderful they are, how could Southwest sell them
              > off? According to them, they are in "survival mode". It seems that the
              > company could not make any money on these turbines? And we know from
              > previous discussions how many Skystreams out there are still having
              > "issues" after all these years of development.
              >
              > The lesson I took away from watching Southwest was to not put out
              > thousands of turbines until you were sure you had the bugs worked out.
              > Otherwise you would be too bogged down fixing broken turbines, while
              > getting further and further behind in these stacked-up repairs, and
              > developing a bad name at least among the customers whose sites had too
              > much wind for the Southwest models...
              >
              > And we keep hearing of all the boutiquey high-dollar choices with a
              > European flavor, but it seems we seldom hear of a happy customer who has
              > generated an economic return from these ultra-high-priced choices. Are
              > they really reliable anyway? I mean, like a water-heater or washing
              > machine, where you can figure on getting at least 5 years, maybe 10 or 15
              > years, of trouble-free service before worrying about reliability at all?
              >
              > In the end, I wonder if maybe small wind, like wind energy in general, is
              > just a bit too complicated for humans to handle. (We had a man on the
              > moon before we had a windfarm.) I mean, after 10 years of beating my head
              > against the wall, to realize that still, one of the main problems is that
              > no grid-tie inverter for wind turbines even exists, tells me that all
              > these programs to promote small wind have really missed the ball while
              > swinging their large multi-million-dollar bat.
              >
              > It also brings to mind a question of what is the difference between a
              > Barry Madoff and a Solyndra or even a Southwest? Is any of these
              > companies really more than a Ponzi-scheme, with a green cloak for an
              > excuse? One more way to get one more $10 million cash infusion band-aid?
              > If they knew most of their products were not yet reliable, what's the
              > excuse for selling them in the thousands? For telling investors to expect
              > a profit? I've asked myself, is the only thing that separates a Ponzi
              > scheme from a "legitimate money-losing company" the excuse that the
              > company has a complicated story of how it supposedly is going to become
              > profitable at some point?
              >
              > Anyway I am putting out the word to be careful whom you do business with,
              > and under what conditions. A company that has no service capability in
              > the U.S. will not be responsive to product failures. A company that
              > cannot send the product that is paid for has bigger problems than the
              > inevitable failure of its products, since without the basic integrity to
              > ship what is ordered or to stand behind one's products, there is no hope
              > of doing long-term business.
              >
              > Have a day!
              > :)
              > Doug S.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > ==========================================================
              > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > . Please feel free to send your input to:
              > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
              > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
              > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > . To view previous messages from the list,
              > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
              > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
              > (and read it on the Web), go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
              > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
              > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
            • Tobias Gogolin
              I doubt you d get happy with inverters in series! Sounds like a recipe for failure to me! There is no guarantee they would share the voltage symmetrically! I
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 9, 2013
                I doubt you'd get happy with inverters in series! Sounds like a recipe for
                failure to me! There is no guarantee they would share the voltage
                symmetrically! I also would recommend against such low voltage generators!
                There is always a way to multiply the voltage while rectifying if the
                windings were indeed low voltage! If there is any significant power
                produced on low voltage you'd have to invest unreasonably in copper! And
                that would be a very vulnerable part of your system because in crisis
                situations thief's collect these semi precious metals with much preference!
                If you want to be able to have the generator far from your house you need
                to go to a few hundred volts DC and get the highest voltage inverter you
                can find! To be sure that over-voltage wont cause problems develop a
                dump-load circuit possibly with multiple progressive outputs and loads! One
                thing for sure a Generator will furl into protection better if it resists
                the wind somewhat! Unloaded over-spinning is dangerous for the whole
                system, and it needs to be avoided!
                I trust my intuition, but I'm willing to be corrected if I err!


                cheers!


                On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:28 AM, Doug <dougselsam@...> wrote:

                > OK so you said "peak of 55v" -
                > so when the turbine starts up...
                > And the inverters begin sensing the grid...
                > but not loading down the turbine yet...
                > And the turbine exceeds 55 Volts, being unloaded
                > What happens to the inverter(s)?
                > What happens if the wind is very strong and yo have a momentary high
                > voltage event?
                > What happens to these inverters when the grid goes down?
                > Do these inverters have 3-phase input?
                > No, well OK do they have overvoltage protection?
                > Maybe I'm missing something but there doesn't seem to be anything new here
                > except now you are using an inverter that is too small so you have to run a
                > few together.
                > You COULD use a 500-Watt inverter for a 2 kW turbine MOST of the time -
                > well heck most of the time the wind is not even blowing. And you might be
                > able to have a few inverters sequentially engage somehow as needed. But
                > that doesn't seem to address the issue of no inverters designed for wind
                > turbines being available.
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Robert Bruninga <wb4apr@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > I have not been following this thread at all, but why not use solar
                > > Microinverters?
                > >
                > > Use a noiminal 48v turbine and feed as many 24v solar microinverters in
                > > series parallel are needed to handle the power? I see 500W
                > microinverters
                > > and they operate with a nominal 30v input (peak of 55v) So each pair in
                > > series will give 1 kW and accept an input from below 48v up to 110v DC
                > > (assuming their inputs are isolated).
                > >
                > > I am sure this has been discussed before, if so, don't shoot me. Just a
                > > thought.
                > > Bob, WB4aPR
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                > > [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug
                > > Sent: Monday, February 11, 2013 12:11 PM
                > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: [s-w-h] Chinese Inverters - my latest failure
                > >
                > > Howdy all:
                > > The regulars here may remember I had finally found a grid-tie inverter
                > > made for wind turbines, made in USA, that rejected overvoltage rather
                > than
                > > being sizzled to a cinder. It was looking like we would finally be able
                > > to offer a reloiable grid-tie home wind energy package.
                > >
                > > As it turned out, the U.S. company producing these over-voltage-proof
                > > inverters went out-of-business right after I bought one, taken over by
                > > Bergey who, according to Mike, had decided not to sell the inverters to
                > > "competitors". (My thought was if I were buying these I could be thought
                > > of as a "customer" rather than a "competitor". One thing I've learned in
                > > business is you don't really know what products you make, that people
                > > want, until the orders start coming in!)
                > >
                > > Anyway these U.S.-made 6 kW inverters are really overkill for my little 2
                > > kW turbine, so really I needed to find a 2 kW inverter that could protect
                > > itself from a wind turbine. I would have had to connect more than one of
                > > my turbines to a 6 kW inverter to utilize its 6 kW capacity. I'm glad I
                > > at least have ONE of these reliable 6 kW US-made inverters for my own
                > use!
                > >
                > > So the good news is that our turbines have finally been developed to the
                > > point that the furling is consistent and we never burn out stators
                > anymore
                > > (knock on wood). So if we had a decent inverter, we might be able to
                > > offer a reliable grid-tie product, as a complete system, or maybe a kit
                > > for do-it-yourselfers and home-builders. And let's face it, "reliable"
                > is
                > > the only thing that matters. A burnt or broken turbine (or inverter)
                > does
                > > nobody any good, and burnt or broken is what quickly happens to most
                > > turbine installations (almost every single one of them - the fact that
                > the
                > > veterans know and most people have no clue about).
                > >
                > > Anyway, some may remember that I had been e-mailed by a Chinese company
                > > producing a supposed German design inverter that allegedly featured
                > > overvoltage protection and overcurrent protection. They offered me a "2
                > > kW" inverter for a certain price in a quote on Sept 15, and I took the
                > > bait and wired funds to China. I'm used to working with reputable
                > > companies in China, so I felt fairly safe wiring funds over there.
                > >
                > > According to the company now, the inverter they sent was a 1.5 kW
                > > inverter, not the 2 kW inverter I ordered! Guess they were holding out...
                > > Hey, isn't that dishonest?
                > >
                > > Well the inverter I received DID feature overvoltage disconect/shutoff,
                > > and I even tested it by placing a generator on a lathe and hitting it
                > with
                > > overvoltage. As advertised, the inverter "let go" of the generator,
                > > without damage, and re-engaged with the generator after the voltage
                > > dropped to acceptable levels. I ran one turbine into it here at my house
                > > for a couple of months, even in some horrendous winds, and it seemed
                > fine.
                > >
                > > Then we brought this inverter out to one of our test sites, and connected
                > > it to a slightly more powerful turbine (still a SuperTwin(TM)). We
                > waited
                > > about a week for any winds at all since we were in a calm period. The
                > > turbine spun up a few times, but there was not much in the way of winds.
                > > One day (still no wind) I got a call saying there was a permeating smell
                > > characteristic of an electrical fire in the shed out there at our test
                > > site. (Veterans know this smell.)
                > >
                > > A few days later we had some wind, and the turbine was acting like it was
                > > braked. As it turned out, the inverter was fried. We are puzzled as to
                > > how it could have fried when there were no winds to speak of. My
                > > supposition is that a single gust started up the turbine, and before the
                > > inverter had a chance to connect to the grid and load down the turbine,
                > it
                > > produced a high voltage (running unloaded even in a light wind can
                > > generate high RPM and hence high voltage) and the overvoltage protection
                > > circuit did not catch it, with the result that multiple inverter
                > > components were melted and two capacitors were blown open. So as it
                > > appears, the overvoltage protection was not 100% reliable.
                > >
                > > The manufacturer in China, so far, has nothing to say except to recommend
                > > that I "replace the capacitors", and that "this is a 1.5 kW inverter".
                > > Only thing is, they quoted a 2 kW inverter, and I paid for a 2 kW
                > > inverter, and we discussed it as a 2 kW inverter for months before I
                > > bought it - bait and switch?
                > >
                > > Either way, if the inverter's overvoltage protection does not always
                > work,
                > > then what good would a slightly larger inverter do us?
                > >
                > > Of course the company also offers an optional dump load controller with
                > > dump load. My question is, since a dump load is for protecting batteries
                > > from overcharging, and since this inverter supposedly can protect itself
                > > from overvoltage and overcurrent, why would one need a dump load?
                > (Unless
                > > the overvoltage and overcurrent porotection were not reliable?)
                > >
                > > Anyway, I remain perplexed that the "small wind industry" seems no
                > further
                > > along than when I first got into it 10 years ago.
                > >
                > > Sure, many companies claim to have reliable products, but show me who has
                > > a reliable installation, say one that has worked for 5 years without any
                > > trouble? Is there a single such trouble-free installation in the entire
                > > U.S.?
                > >
                > > Southwest Windpower, the market leader in sales, has recently sold off
                > all
                > > its product lines except Skystream to other companies. That includes the
                > > Whisper line, including the Whisper 200 and 500 models, sold to a company
                > > in India that, according to inside information, is unable to produce a
                > > decent version of any Whisper turbine despite Southwest sending an
                > > engineer over there to help.
                > >
                > > And the "Air" models were sold to a company in Colorado that hired key
                > > Southwest personnel. If Southwest couldn't make any money on these
                > > models, why would a new company think they could? Every Air turbine I
                > see
                > > in my travels is not working - they are everywhere!
                > >
                > > My question is, after 10 years of hand-waving and happy-talk about all
                > > these models and how wonderful they are, how could Southwest sell them
                > > off? According to them, they are in "survival mode". It seems that the
                > > company could not make any money on these turbines? And we know from
                > > previous discussions how many Skystreams out there are still having
                > > "issues" after all these years of development.
                > >
                > > The lesson I took away from watching Southwest was to not put out
                > > thousands of turbines until you were sure you had the bugs worked out.
                > > Otherwise you would be too bogged down fixing broken turbines, while
                > > getting further and further behind in these stacked-up repairs, and
                > > developing a bad name at least among the customers whose sites had too
                > > much wind for the Southwest models...
                > >
                > > And we keep hearing of all the boutiquey high-dollar choices with a
                > > European flavor, but it seems we seldom hear of a happy customer who has
                > > generated an economic return from these ultra-high-priced choices. Are
                > > they really reliable anyway? I mean, like a water-heater or washing
                > > machine, where you can figure on getting at least 5 years, maybe 10 or 15
                > > years, of trouble-free service before worrying about reliability at all?
                > >
                > > In the end, I wonder if maybe small wind, like wind energy in general, is
                > > just a bit too complicated for humans to handle. (We had a man on the
                > > moon before we had a windfarm.) I mean, after 10 years of beating my
                > head
                > > against the wall, to realize that still, one of the main problems is that
                > > no grid-tie inverter for wind turbines even exists, tells me that all
                > > these programs to promote small wind have really missed the ball while
                > > swinging their large multi-million-dollar bat.
                > >
                > > It also brings to mind a question of what is the difference between a
                > > Barry Madoff and a Solyndra or even a Southwest? Is any of these
                > > companies really more than a Ponzi-scheme, with a green cloak for an
                > > excuse? One more way to get one more $10 million cash infusion band-aid?
                > > If they knew most of their products were not yet reliable, what's the
                > > excuse for selling them in the thousands? For telling investors to
                > expect
                > > a profit? I've asked myself, is the only thing that separates a Ponzi
                > > scheme from a "legitimate money-losing company" the excuse that the
                > > company has a complicated story of how it supposedly is going to become
                > > profitable at some point?
                > >
                > > Anyway I am putting out the word to be careful whom you do business with,
                > > and under what conditions. A company that has no service capability in
                > > the U.S. will not be responsive to product failures. A company that
                > > cannot send the product that is paid for has bigger problems than the
                > > inevitable failure of its products, since without the basic integrity to
                > > ship what is ordered or to stand behind one's products, there is no hope
                > > of doing long-term business.
                > >
                > > Have a day!
                > > :)
                > > Doug S.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------
                > >
                > > ==========================================================
                > > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > > . Please feel free to send your input to:
                > > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                > > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                > > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > . To view previous messages from the list,
                > > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                > > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                > > (and read it on the Web), go to
                > > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
                > > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                > > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                > >
                > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > ==========================================================
                > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > . Please feel free to send your input to:
                > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > . To view previous messages from the list,
                > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                > (and read it on the Web), go to
                > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
                > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                >
                > ----------------------------------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                --
                Tobias Gogolin
                Tel. Movistar (646) 124 32 82
                Tel. Telcel (646) 160 58 99
                skype: moontogo
                messenger: usertogo@...
                First Bitcoin Account: 1LCupcVd8HhAGyVhd3xayPpnQHeis7rAiV
                Blog: http://zeitgeistensenada.blogspot.com/

                You develop Sustainable Ranch Technology at
                http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SURA-TECH
                an Open Source Electric Motor/Alternator at
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Performance_Axial_Flux
                and an Open Source Motor Controller at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoBox


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Doug
                Unloaded overspinning does not seem to be a problem for a turbine that furls properly. The Bergey 10 kW system handles excessively-high winds in this way and
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 10, 2013
                  Unloaded overspinning does not seem to be a problem for a turbine that furls properly. The Bergey 10 kW system handles excessively-high winds in this way and almost stops while unloaded and sideways. Then it falls back into the wind and goes fast again, then turns sideways and goes slow again.
                  Maybe if your furling turbine needs a dump load it is not furling well enough and will burn out.(?)
                  Seems to me the first item on an effective small wind agenda is to identify any model of turbine that is consistently reliable and doesn't break down or burn out, throw blades, etc.
                  The resulting list of turbines could probably be counted on one hand.
                  One finger?

                  --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I doubt you'd get happy with inverters in series! Sounds like a recipe for
                  > failure to me! There is no guarantee they would share the voltage
                  > symmetrically! I also would recommend against such low voltage generators!
                  > There is always a way to multiply the voltage while rectifying if the
                  > windings were indeed low voltage! If there is any significant power
                  > produced on low voltage you'd have to invest unreasonably in copper! And
                  > that would be a very vulnerable part of your system because in crisis
                  > situations thief's collect these semi precious metals with much preference!
                  > If you want to be able to have the generator far from your house you need
                  > to go to a few hundred volts DC and get the highest voltage inverter you
                  > can find! To be sure that over-voltage wont cause problems develop a
                  > dump-load circuit possibly with multiple progressive outputs and loads! One
                  > thing for sure a Generator will furl into protection better if it resists
                  > the wind somewhat! Unloaded over-spinning is dangerous for the whole
                  > system, and it needs to be avoided!
                  > I trust my intuition, but I'm willing to be corrected if I err!
                  >
                  >
                  > cheers!
                • Tobias Gogolin
                  The turbine I modified for higher woltages (was 24 V 3 phase = now is 200-300 V at reasonable low RPM could even be dammaged due to overvoltage ( 600V
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 10, 2013
                    The turbine I modified for higher woltages (was 24 V 3 phase => now is
                    200-300 V at reasonable low RPM could even be dammaged due to overvoltage
                    (>600V capacitors might blow)). High RPM will even produce possibly
                    excessive voltage on unmodified systems. If the electric brake could be
                    applied, I'm sure there is less stress on the hardware than at very high
                    RPM! If the electric brake ever fails its still early enough to find out if
                    the furling will also work when overspinning!

                    On Sun, Mar 10, 2013 at 6:29 AM, Doug <dougselsam@...> wrote:

                    > Unloaded overspinning does not seem to be a problem for a turbine that
                    > furls properly. The Bergey 10 kW system handles excessively-high winds in
                    > this way and almost stops while unloaded and sideways. Then it falls back
                    > into the wind and goes fast again, then turns sideways and goes slow again.
                    > Maybe if your furling turbine needs a dump load it is not furling well
                    > enough and will burn out.(?)
                    > Seems to me the first item on an effective small wind agenda is to
                    > identify any model of turbine that is consistently reliable and doesn't
                    > break down or burn out, throw blades, etc.
                    > The resulting list of turbines could probably be counted on one hand.
                    > One finger?
                    >
                    > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Tobias Gogolin <usertogo@...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I doubt you'd get happy with inverters in series! Sounds like a recipe
                    > for
                    > > failure to me! There is no guarantee they would share the voltage
                    > > symmetrically! I also would recommend against such low voltage
                    > generators!
                    > > There is always a way to multiply the voltage while rectifying if the
                    > > windings were indeed low voltage! If there is any significant power
                    > > produced on low voltage you'd have to invest unreasonably in copper! And
                    > > that would be a very vulnerable part of your system because in crisis
                    > > situations thief's collect these semi precious metals with much
                    > preference!
                    > > If you want to be able to have the generator far from your house you need
                    > > to go to a few hundred volts DC and get the highest voltage inverter you
                    > > can find! To be sure that over-voltage wont cause problems develop a
                    > > dump-load circuit possibly with multiple progressive outputs and loads!
                    > One
                    > > thing for sure a Generator will furl into protection better if it resists
                    > > the wind somewhat! Unloaded over-spinning is dangerous for the whole
                    > > system, and it needs to be avoided!
                    > > I trust my intuition, but I'm willing to be corrected if I err!
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > cheers!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > ==========================================================
                    > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > . Please feel free to send your input to:
                    > small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                    > small-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > . To view previous messages from the list,
                    > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                    > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                    > (and read it on the Web), go to
                    > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/small-wind-home .
                    > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                    > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                    >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    --
                    Tobias Gogolin
                    Tel. Movistar (646) 124 32 82
                    Tel. Telcel (646) 160 58 99
                    skype: moontogo
                    messenger: usertogo@...
                    First Bitcoin Account: 1LCupcVd8HhAGyVhd3xayPpnQHeis7rAiV
                    Blog: http://zeitgeistensenada.blogspot.com/

                    You develop Sustainable Ranch Technology at
                    http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/SURA-TECH
                    an Open Source Electric Motor/Alternator at
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Performance_Axial_Flux
                    and an Open Source Motor Controller at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoBox


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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