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RE: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?

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  • roger dixon
    Hey Logan. I think you hit it on the head.. Mel and Nando are familiar with the older GridTek 10 inverter and their perspective and experiences with it. The
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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      Hey Logan. I think you hit it on the head.. Mel and Nando are familiar with
      the older GridTek 10 inverter and their perspective and experiences with it.
      The data Mel is collecting is, as I understand it, from the older GridTek
      10. You are addressing the new, improved Bergey inverter and its
      performance. Apples and Oranges for sure and not a similar comparison by
      any means.



      From what I have seen so far with the new Bergey inverter, the issues with
      the older GridTek 10 have been resolved.



      Roger Dixon

      Skylands Renewable Energy, LLC

      Certified Wind Site Assessor

      ASME/IACET Certified Rigging Instructor

      NJ CEP (Clean Energy Program) Approved Wind Turbine Installer

      NYSERDA Approved Wind Turbine Installer

      Distributor & Installer of Solar & Wind Energy Systems

      908.337.2057 cell

      908.730.6474 fax

      roger.dixon@...

      www.skylandsre.com

      SkylandsRenewD66bR03dP01ZL



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      From: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wlbrycemt
      Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 12:44 AM
      To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10
      kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?





      Hi Mike

      The issue here is that Mel has an Older GridTec10 equipped Bergey Excel.
      Nando warned a person that was thinking of purchasing a new Excel that it
      has problems with the inverter and PMG power matching. IE: the Turbine can
      produce more energy than the inverter can convert and pass to the Grid.

      My last post I attempted to explain and show with basic data that the
      current version that is shipping does not have any issues with the Inverter.
      In fact the current version of the Excel produces more energy than the older
      Ferrite model and the inverter has no problem converting and passing that
      energy to the grid.
      I am talking Apples (current product) and Nando, in regards to Mel's
      problem, is talking Oranges (several years older product).

      As an installer, I'm glad to see a manufacturer spend the money to make
      improvements, in reliability and power production. That is all.

      Logan

      --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com> , Michael Klemen
      <wind4energy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Nando,
      >
      > It is my understanding the Mel is taking data, so why
      > is it he cannot provide the data you desire? He should
      > be able to get any data you need. Why are you asking
      > Logan?
      >
      > Mike
      >
      > --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:
      >
      > > From: Nando <nando37@...>
      > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey
      Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
      > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com> , "wlbrycemt" <wlbrycemt@...>
      > > Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 4:50 PM
      > > Logan:
      > > I understand your words BUT I would like to see data
      > > instead of : It is rock solid and is an extremely good power
      > > producer --- What are the specifications of the
      > > Inverter, the generator, trip setting of the furling
      > > tail etc.
      > >
      > > I am assisting professor Mel Tyree in adding
      > > additional protection and clamping to avoid inverter shut
      > > down during high wind regime.
      > >
      > > Nando
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: wlbrycemt
      > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
      > >
      > > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:06 AM
      > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I
      > > buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Hi Nando
      > >
      > > What I can tell you from the install and support of
      > > over 20 Excels in Montana, is that the problem with the
      > > Gridtek10 was an issue in only a couple of units installed
      > > in extremely high wind areas.
      > >
      > > I talked to Professor Mel Tyree several times to
      > > help him, but he did not live in the same location as the
      > > turbine so a resolution was never found.
      > >
      > > What I can tell you present day is that the Bergey
      > > Excel peak power furling is well above the inverters maximum
      > > output capability. In fact for the last 2 years, the Excel
      > > running at our site will hit 13 KW without furling or
      > > tripping off line. The date stamp on the video will confirm
      > > this. This is not "New" gear. This version of the Bergey
      > > Excel has been flying for years now and is tested. Not
      > > pimping gear just pointing out the changes made by the
      > > manufacturer.
      > >
      > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvzWHF28vo
      > >
      > > My point is that present day, there is no issue with
      > > peak power or furling with the Bergey Excel. The inverter
      > > can take and convert to grid power, more energy than the
      > > turbine can supply. It is rock solid and is an extremely
      > > good power producer that makes my customers happy.
      > >
      > > Cheers
      > >
      > > Logan
      > >
      > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > > "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Logan:
      > > >
      > > > I agree with you the Bergey Excel is a very
      > > good wind mill, stout and with normal wind regimes the
      > > inverter can harvest the power the generator produces.
      > > >
      > > > The problem is the furling point of the wind
      > > mill that can stay long enough at its peak for some time
      > > producing a voltage range that the inverter can not handle
      > > forcing an inverter disconnection.
      > > >
      > > > This means that the generator can produce a
      > > peak voltage higher than the inverter specified ranges --
      > > this point I do not know if has been corrected lately.
      > > >
      > > > Professor Mel Tyree and some other Bergey do
      > > shut down due to the excess high voltage that the inverter
      > > can not handle.
      > > >
      > > > Once the furling has brought the RPM down no
      > > longer is a problem -- but often due to inverter shutdown
      > > the connection to the Grid is lost for long enough that many
      > > KWH are lost with the corresponding revenue losses.
      > > >
      > > > Can you tell me, what is the present day
      > > inverter KW peak power capability and maximum voltage the
      > > inverter can operate without shut down.
      > > >
      > > > Can you supply the K factor of the generator
      > > Volts/RPM and what is the peak power furling point trip set
      > > to.
      > > >
      > > > Nando
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: wlbrycemt
      > > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
      > >
      > > > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:15 PM
      > > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine
      > > Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Nando, In regards to the Bergey Excel 10 KW, I
      > > can assure you that it is extremely well mated to the
      > > inverter. Professor Tyree has experienced problems in the
      > > past with his GridTek10 inverter.
      > > >
      > > > Whatever his issues are or were, they are now
      > > in the past. The Bergey Excel is an extremely reliable
      > > turbine and stands up to the best that can be thrown at it.
      > > It will run for days at a power level way over the 10 KW
      > > rating.
      > > >
      > > > This turbine has years of operational history
      > > and that is a good thing.
      > > > Yes I am a Bergey installer, but I install the
      > > Excel turbine because it is a turbine that requires little
      > > installer returns or problems and good manufacturer
      > > support.
      > > >
      > > > In the Photo section (Bergey PS2) I have
      > > included screenshots from a turbine running in Montana that
      > > ran for almost 24 hours at full power without any issues.
      > > The next photo is from another turbine in Montana that also
      > > shows peak power and this month's production.
      > > > The last is a screen shot from the same turbine
      > > that shows the turbines availability from the install (8
      > > months).
      > > >
      > > > This is not random pimping of Bergey gear, but
      > > is intended to show that the turbine and inverter is well
      > > matched and is not some weak combination as some are
      > > thinking. This is DATA and DATA is what is needed in this
      > > industry. We have now accumulated years of data and can
      > > report that the Excel is a good turbine.
      > > >
      > > > hgengineer
      > > >
      > > > I think you have many good turbines you can
      > > choose from, just ask for references and DATA from people
      > > who have spent their hard earned money and installed the
      > > turbine that you are looking at. Then compare Apples to
      > > Apples!
      > > >
      > > > Logan
      > > >
      > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com> ,
      > > "hgengineer" <hgengineer@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > I'm stuck between these two manufacturers.
      > > Both have ten year warranties, are made in USA and are
      > > heavyweight machines. What do you guys think??
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > > removed]
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >



      _____

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • tom mack
      Hello HG I assume you are Bergey vs Xerces ... no info posted here. Paul Gipe has been involved in windmills since late 1970s. In his 2003(-ish) book he
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Hello HG
        I assume you are Bergey vs Xerces ... no info posted here.

        Paul Gipe has been involved in windmills since late 1970s. In his 2003(-ish)
        book he selected Bergey and Proven( a U.K. outfit) machines as having
        established a reliability record 'better than the gensets they replaced'.

        Some of the new machines incorporate fine novel technology -- the Southwest
        among them. If you're not a bored retiree , reliability counts... and only field
        experience can determine that.

        Also note that , early during the Carter administration alternative energy
        program (essentially abandoned as ridiculous by Reagan) , the incentives used
        followed the petroleum industry's "investment tax credits". These were later
        abandoned/modified toward "production tax credits" which were found to be better
        overall. A lot of investors lost money on windpower in the early stages , and ,
        Larry Kudlow , for one , still rejects wind as an investment. I think that
        investment tax credits were re-established by the Obama administration.
        Some of the new stuff just needs time to prove itself ... some was clearly built
        in ignorance/defiance of known aerodynamic principles.



        Regards-


        ________________________________
        From: hgengineer <hgengineer@...>
        To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, November 27, 2010 8:33:38 PM
        Subject: [s-w-h] Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a
        Xzeres442 10kW?


        I'm stuck between these two manufacturers. Both have ten year warranties, are
        made in USA and are heavyweight machines. What do you guys think??







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nando
        Michael: You got an answer then here you have mine : I was trying to determine the difference between the Old GridTek package and the new improved package
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Michael:

          You got an answer then here you have mine : I was trying to determine the difference between the Old GridTek package and the new "improved package" -- because also, I examine the 7.5 KW battery charger THAT the wind mill can set the generator to produce around 14 KW at the trip furling point and it is the same wind mill and I understand it is the same generator -- which is telling me that the furling trip point is too high and too inaccurate trip point that may vary a lot from wind mill to wind mill-- bad thing unless this peak power can be handled by the inverter.

          Few people fail to do the proper analysis of the power curve and the mill behavior harvesting energy where the curve does not produce at any time a power level or a high voltage above the limitations of the"energy harvesting equipment "that in this case is the inverter.

          Logan was informing that there was another type of newer Bergey Excel 10 KW wind mill with new characteristics and capabilities.

          One point that I have stressed is the times where the wind mill disconnect from the Grid when the generator is producing a too high voltage and or a too high peak power -- forcing a shut down --often for a long time from the point of view of the owner of the wind mill.

          This problem "exaggerated" by the inverter itself that does NOT have the capacity to handle those mentioned excesses forcing a Grid disconnection and wind mills "dormant times"

          Does this clear my questioning ?

          My friend Mel is taking data of an old Bergey Gridtek wind mill as Professor Mel defines what is going ON with his mill and other older Bergey Excel 10 KW wind mills.

          Nando




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Michael Klemen
          To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:39 PM
          Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?



          Nando,

          It is my understanding the Mel is taking data, so why
          is it he cannot provide the data you desire? He should
          be able to get any data you need. Why are you asking
          Logan?

          Mike

          --- On Tue, 11/30/10, Nando <nando37@...> wrote:

          > From: Nando <nando37@...>
          > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
          > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "wlbrycemt" <wlbrycemt@...>
          > Date: Tuesday, November 30, 2010, 4:50 PM
          > Logan:
          > I understand your words BUT I would like to see data
          > instead of : It is rock solid and is an extremely good power
          > producer --- What are the specifications of the
          > Inverter, the generator, trip setting of the furling
          > tail etc.
          >
          > I am assisting professor Mel Tyree in adding
          > additional protection and clamping to avoid inverter shut
          > down during high wind regime.
          >
          > Nando
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: wlbrycemt
          > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 8:06 AM
          > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I
          > buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi Nando
          >
          > What I can tell you from the install and support of
          > over 20 Excels in Montana, is that the problem with the
          > Gridtek10 was an issue in only a couple of units installed
          > in extremely high wind areas.
          >
          > I talked to Professor Mel Tyree several times to
          > help him, but he did not live in the same location as the
          > turbine so a resolution was never found.
          >
          > What I can tell you present day is that the Bergey
          > Excel peak power furling is well above the inverters maximum
          > output capability. In fact for the last 2 years, the Excel
          > running at our site will hit 13 KW without furling or
          > tripping off line. The date stamp on the video will confirm
          > this. This is not "New" gear. This version of the Bergey
          > Excel has been flying for years now and is tested. Not
          > pimping gear just pointing out the changes made by the
          > manufacturer.
          >
          > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvzWHF28vo
          >
          > My point is that present day, there is no issue with
          > peak power or furling with the Bergey Excel. The inverter
          > can take and convert to grid power, more energy than the
          > turbine can supply. It is rock solid and is an extremely
          > good power producer that makes my customers happy.
          >
          > Cheers
          >
          > Logan
          >
          > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
          > "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Logan:
          > >
          > > I agree with you the Bergey Excel is a very
          > good wind mill, stout and with normal wind regimes the
          > inverter can harvest the power the generator produces.
          > >
          > > The problem is the furling point of the wind
          > mill that can stay long enough at its peak for some time
          > producing a voltage range that the inverter can not handle
          > forcing an inverter disconnection.
          > >
          > > This means that the generator can produce a
          > peak voltage higher than the inverter specified ranges --
          > this point I do not know if has been corrected lately.
          > >
          > > Professor Mel Tyree and some other Bergey do
          > shut down due to the excess high voltage that the inverter
          > can not handle.
          > >
          > > Once the furling has brought the RPM down no
          > longer is a problem -- but often due to inverter shutdown
          > the connection to the Grid is lost for long enough that many
          > KWH are lost with the corresponding revenue losses.
          > >
          > > Can you tell me, what is the present day
          > inverter KW peak power capability and maximum voltage the
          > inverter can operate without shut down.
          > >
          > > Can you supply the K factor of the generator
          > Volts/RPM and what is the peak power furling point trip set
          > to.
          > >
          > > Nando
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: wlbrycemt
          > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:15 PM
          > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine
          > Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Nando, In regards to the Bergey Excel 10 KW, I
          > can assure you that it is extremely well mated to the
          > inverter. Professor Tyree has experienced problems in the
          > past with his GridTek10 inverter.
          > >
          > > Whatever his issues are or were, they are now
          > in the past. The Bergey Excel is an extremely reliable
          > turbine and stands up to the best that can be thrown at it.
          > It will run for days at a power level way over the 10 KW
          > rating.
          > >
          > > This turbine has years of operational history
          > and that is a good thing.
          > > Yes I am a Bergey installer, but I install the
          > Excel turbine because it is a turbine that requires little
          > installer returns or problems and good manufacturer
          > support.
          > >
          > > In the Photo section (Bergey PS2) I have
          > included screenshots from a turbine running in Montana that
          > ran for almost 24 hours at full power without any issues.
          > The next photo is from another turbine in Montana that also
          > shows peak power and this month's production.
          > > The last is a screen shot from the same turbine
          > that shows the turbines availability from the install (8
          > months).
          > >
          > > This is not random pimping of Bergey gear, but
          > is intended to show that the turbine and inverter is well
          > matched and is not some weak combination as some are
          > thinking. This is DATA and DATA is what is needed in this
          > industry. We have now accumulated years of data and can
          > report that the Excel is a good turbine.
          > >
          > > hgengineer
          > >
          > > I think you have many good turbines you can
          > choose from, just ask for references and DATA from people
          > who have spent their hard earned money and installed the
          > turbine that you are looking at. Then compare Apples to
          > Apples!
          > >
          > > Logan
          > >
          > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com,
          > "hgengineer" <hgengineer@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I'm stuck between these two manufacturers.
          > Both have ten year warranties, are made in USA and are
          > heavyweight machines. What do you guys think??
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • meltyree1
          Hi All, Let me comment here. I have monitored 4 Bergey turbines for a year or more and they are all very reliable. I have had an unusual number of voltage
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi All,
            Let me comment here. I have monitored 4 Bergey turbines for a year or more and they are all very reliable. I have had an unusual number of voltage overloads causing my GridTek10 inverter to shut down frequently, but the other three systems have much less or no problems. Two of the three have GridTek10's and the other has a PowerSyncII (inverters). At all the sites I have logged wind speed, air temp, pressure, and power output. I have confirmed that my problems were unique to my GT10 inverter.
            I solved my problem by installing two 6 kW Aurora inverters which can take higher voltages and never seem to require resets. I also have a much better power curve so expect a 20 to 30 % boost in annual energy production. By next month I will have 12 months of data with the Aurora. Over the Xmas break I will analyze the full year's power and wind speed data. But without knowing the mean annual wind speed I can say that I have produced more kWh in the last 12 months than in the previous 4 years (12-month periods).
            I wish I had time, money, and interest in logging data on more units, but without doing that I cannot prove other units do or do not have the problem I had. I prefer to assume that the vast majority of other Bergey's are okay.
            I also have monitoring equipment on one 3.5 kW Raum, one 5 kW Endurance, and two 10 kW Fortis Alizes. The Raum is still running okay after a month, the other two have all had multiple and serious reliability issues over a >12 month period, which are being addressed by the installers.

            Mel Tyree
            Adjunct Professor,
            Dept Renewable Resources
            University of Alberta.

            --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "wlbrycemt" <wlbrycemt@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Nando
            >
            >
            > What I can tell you from the install and support of over 20 Excels in Montana, is that the problem with the Gridtek10 was an issue in only a couple of units installed in extremely high wind areas.
            >
            > I talked to Professor Mel Tyree several times to help him, but he did not live in the same location as the turbine so a resolution was never found.
            >
            > What I can tell you present day is that the Bergey Excel peak power furling is well above the inverters maximum output capability. In fact for the last 2 years, the Excel running at our site will hit 13 KW without furling or tripping off line. The date stamp on the video will confirm this. This is not "New" gear. This version of the Bergey Excel has been flying for years now and is tested. Not pimping gear just pointing out the changes made by the manufacturer.
            >
            > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEvzWHF28vo
            >
            > My point is that present day, there is no issue with peak power or furling with the Bergey Excel. The inverter can take and convert to grid power, more energy than the turbine can supply. It is rock solid and is an extremely good power producer that makes my customers happy.
            >
            > Cheers
            >
            > Logan
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Logan:
            > >
            > > I agree with you the Bergey Excel is a very good wind mill, stout and with normal wind regimes the inverter can harvest the power the generator produces.
            > >
            > > The problem is the furling point of the wind mill that can stay long enough at its peak for some time producing a voltage range that the inverter can not handle forcing an inverter disconnection.
            > >
            > > This means that the generator can produce a peak voltage higher than the inverter specified ranges -- this point I do not know if has been corrected lately.
            > >
            > > Professor Mel Tyree and some other Bergey do shut down due to the excess high voltage that the inverter can not handle.
            > >
            > > Once the furling has brought the RPM down no longer is a problem -- but often due to inverter shutdown the connection to the Grid is lost for long enough that many KWH are lost with the corresponding revenue losses.
            > >
            > > Can you tell me, what is the present day inverter KW peak power capability and maximum voltage the inverter can operate without shut down.
            > >
            > > Can you supply the K factor of the generator Volts/RPM and what is the peak power furling point trip set to.
            > >
            > > Nando
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: wlbrycemt
            > > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 9:15 PM
            > > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Which Grid tie Turbine Should I buy, A Bergey Excel 10 kW or a Xzeres442 10kW?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Nando, In regards to the Bergey Excel 10 KW, I can assure you that it is extremely well mated to the inverter. Professor Tyree has experienced problems in the past with his GridTek10 inverter.
            > >
            > > Whatever his issues are or were, they are now in the past. The Bergey Excel is an extremely reliable turbine and stands up to the best that can be thrown at it. It will run for days at a power level way over the 10 KW rating.
            > >
            > > This turbine has years of operational history and that is a good thing.
            > > Yes I am a Bergey installer, but I install the Excel turbine because it is a turbine that requires little installer returns or problems and good manufacturer support.
            > >
            > > In the Photo section (Bergey PS2) I have included screenshots from a turbine running in Montana that ran for almost 24 hours at full power without any issues. The next photo is from another turbine in Montana that also shows peak power and this month's production.
            > > The last is a screen shot from the same turbine that shows the turbines availability from the install (8 months).
            > >
            > > This is not random pimping of Bergey gear, but is intended to show that the turbine and inverter is well matched and is not some weak combination as some are thinking. This is DATA and DATA is what is needed in this industry. We have now accumulated years of data and can report that the Excel is a good turbine.
            > >
            > > hgengineer
            > >
            > > I think you have many good turbines you can choose from, just ask for references and DATA from people who have spent their hard earned money and installed the turbine that you are looking at. Then compare Apples to Apples!
            > >
            > > Logan
            > >
            > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "hgengineer" <hgengineer@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > I'm stuck between these two manufacturers. Both have ten year warranties, are made in USA and are heavyweight machines. What do you guys think??
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
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