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Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works

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  • Cory Arnold
    After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my conclusion. In the
    Message 1 of 21 , Oct 1, 2010
      After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
      of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
      conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly grid-tieing far
      after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
      also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
      sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
      sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and watched
      it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
      volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
      observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
      only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
      and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
      the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .

      I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
      building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.

      Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way that
      everyone can understand.

      Cory Arnold
      Director of Business Development
      MC Energy LLC
      O: 509.926.9463
      C: 208.360.3788
      F: 509.892.0609
      CoryArnold@...


      On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
      >
      > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
      >
      > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit, a boot
      > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
      > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
      >
      > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
      > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
      > inverter limits.
      >
      > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
      > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
      >
      > Nando
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Cory Arnold
      > To: Tom Clarke
      > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
      > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
      >
      > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven is the
      > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the inverter
      > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter with a
      > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of Provens the
      > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
      >
      > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
      > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all production
      > of the machine.
      >
      > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind and has
      > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They however are
      > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The question is
      > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
      >
      > Cory Arnold
      > Director of Business Development
      > MC Energy LLC
      > O: 509.926.9463
      > C: 208.360.3788
      > F: 509.892.0609
      > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
      >
      > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much, 200kg
      > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
      > >
      > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h machine.
      > >
      > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h on the
      > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
      > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one Proven 6Kw
      > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
      > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow mountains
      > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
      > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
      > >
      > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost of the
      > > machine, that is assuming it runs
      > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my grandson see
      > > the cost recovered.
      > >
      > > Tom Clarke
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Doug
      I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY. 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get SOME extra power if
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 1, 2010
        I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
        1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
        The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
        The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
        A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which it is expected to charge.
        It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.

        If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter, meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
        I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
        Doug S.

        --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Cory Arnold <coryarnold@...> wrote:
        >
        > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
        > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
        > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly grid-tieing far
        > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
        > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
        > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
        > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and watched
        > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
        > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
        > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
        > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
        > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
        > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
        >
        > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
        > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
        >
        > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way that
        > everyone can understand.
        >
        > Cory Arnold
        > Director of Business Development
        > MC Energy LLC
        > O: 509.926.9463
        > C: 208.360.3788
        > F: 509.892.0609
        > CoryArnold@...
        >
        >
        > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
        > >
        > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
        > >
        > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit, a boot
        > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
        > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
        > >
        > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
        > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
        > > inverter limits.
        > >
        > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
        > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
        > >
        > > Nando
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Cory Arnold
        > > To: Tom Clarke
        > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
        > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
        > >
        > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven is the
        > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the inverter
        > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter with a
        > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of Provens the
        > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
        > >
        > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
        > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all production
        > > of the machine.
        > >
        > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind and has
        > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They however are
        > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The question is
        > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
        > >
        > > Cory Arnold
        > > Director of Business Development
        > > MC Energy LLC
        > > O: 509.926.9463
        > > C: 208.360.3788
        > > F: 509.892.0609
        > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
        > >
        > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much, 200kg
        > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
        > > >
        > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h machine.
        > > >
        > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h on the
        > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
        > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one Proven 6Kw
        > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
        > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow mountains
        > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
        > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
        > > >
        > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost of the
        > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
        > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my grandson see
        > > > the cost recovered.
        > > >
        > > > Tom Clarke
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Nando
        I concur with Doug s statements though a more accuracy in this set up should be indicated. I am not familiar with the wind boy -- heck I have swept hard with
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 1, 2010
          I concur with Doug's statements though a more accuracy in this set up should be indicated.

          I am not familiar with the wind boy -- heck I have swept hard with 10 and 20 KW wind mills --

          The Windy Boy as others wind inverters, normally have a boost circuit to start raising the voltage to the operating voltage --that is defined by the GRID voltage arriving to the inverter -- and the design of the boost-inverter MPPT capabilities and the minimum acceptable mill generated voltage that can be used to produce the minimum GRID tied power.

          The Wind generator should have as the best path of the design the capability of producing a high voltage at the minimum acceptable GRID tied "dumping".

          Using generators designed for battery charging is basically a big error that has to be corrected with circuitry ending up with the need to allow the mill to RPM high enough to just produce an high enough voltage for the inverter to start operating at a much higher lower wind velocity.

          The marriage of generator and inverter has been done in a not well defined arrangements - for one the possible high voltage generation above the input voltage limits of the inverter that should have been improved easily if the generator had internal capabilities to switch from Y ( Star) Connection to Delta connection when a certain peak voltage is reached by the generator., and as well, the over voltage problems of many inverters that have to disconnect to protect itself from to high incoming voltage -- a ballast controller to assist the wind mill itself to furl and reduce its peak generated voltage which says that the generator has to be sized for such peak power.

          Some of the reasons why quite often the small wind mill generators are having so many problems -- no enough protection designed as a package and "bad" marriages !!

          Nando


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Doug
          To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, October 01, 2010 1:48 PM
          Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works



          I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
          1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
          The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
          The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
          A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which it is expected to charge.
          It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.

          If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter, meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
          I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
          Doug S.

          --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Cory Arnold <coryarnold@...> wrote:
          >
          > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
          > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
          > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly grid-tieing far
          > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
          > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
          > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
          > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and watched
          > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
          > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
          > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
          > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
          > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
          > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
          >
          > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
          > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
          >
          > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way that
          > everyone can understand.
          >
          > Cory Arnold
          > Director of Business Development
          > MC Energy LLC
          > O: 509.926.9463
          > C: 208.360.3788
          > F: 509.892.0609
          > CoryArnold@...
          >
          >
          > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
          > >
          > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
          > >
          > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit, a boot
          > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
          > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
          > >
          > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
          > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
          > > inverter limits.
          > >
          > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
          > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
          > >
          > > Nando
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Cory Arnold
          > > To: Tom Clarke
          > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
          > >
          > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven is the
          > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the inverter
          > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter with a
          > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of Provens the
          > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
          > >
          > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
          > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all production
          > > of the machine.
          > >
          > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind and has
          > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They however are
          > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The question is
          > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
          > >
          > > Cory Arnold
          > > Director of Business Development
          > > MC Energy LLC
          > > O: 509.926.9463
          > > C: 208.360.3788
          > > F: 509.892.0609
          > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
          > >
          > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much, 200kg
          > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
          > > >
          > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h machine.
          > > >
          > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h on the
          > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
          > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one Proven 6Kw
          > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
          > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow mountains
          > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
          > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
          > > >
          > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost of the
          > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
          > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my grandson see
          > > > the cost recovered.
          > > >
          > > > Tom Clarke
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Cory Arnold
          It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other inverters came
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 4, 2010
            "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
            inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
            inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
            input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
            range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
            an indication that they are "better" necessarily."

            True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
            not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
            news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
            professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
            agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
            not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
            market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
            year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
            last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
            expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
            a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
            numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
            now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
            have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
            wind inverter.

            "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually needed. Active rectifying,
            included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am confident the one that does
            the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."

            Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go after it. I personally do
            not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.



            Great conversation guys!



            Cory Arnold
            Director of Business Development
            MC Energy LLC
            O: 509.926.9463
            C: 208.360.3788
            F: 509.892.0609
            CoryArnold@...


            On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
            >
            > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
            > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
            > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
            > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
            > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
            > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
            > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
            > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
            > it is expected to charge.
            > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
            > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
            > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
            > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
            > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
            > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
            >
            > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
            > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
            > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
            > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
            > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
            > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
            > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
            > components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
            > Doug S.
            >
            > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
            > <coryarnold@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
            > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
            > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly grid-tieing far
            > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
            > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
            > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
            > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
            > watched
            > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
            > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
            > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
            > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
            > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
            > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
            > >
            > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
            > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
            > >
            > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way that
            > > everyone can understand.
            > >
            > > Cory Arnold
            > > Director of Business Development
            > > MC Energy LLC
            > > O: 509.926.9463
            > > C: 208.360.3788
            > > F: 509.892.0609
            > > CoryArnold@...
            > >
            > >
            > > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
            > > >
            > > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit, a boot
            > > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
            > > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
            > > >
            > > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
            > > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
            > > > inverter limits.
            > > >
            > > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
            > > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
            > > >
            > > > Nando
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: Cory Arnold
            > > > To: Tom Clarke
            > > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
            > > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
            > > >
            > > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven is the
            > > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the
            > inverter
            > > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter with a
            > > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of Provens the
            > > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
            > > >
            > > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
            > > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all
            > production
            > > > of the machine.
            > > >
            > > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind and has
            > > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They however are
            > > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The
            > question is
            > > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
            > > >
            > > > Cory Arnold
            > > > Director of Business Development
            > > > MC Energy LLC
            > > > O: 509.926.9463
            > > > C: 208.360.3788
            > > > F: 509.892.0609
            > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
            > > >
            > > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much, 200kg
            > > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
            > > > >
            > > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h machine.
            > > > >
            > > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h on the
            > > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
            > > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one Proven 6Kw
            > > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
            > > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow
            > mountains
            > > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
            > > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
            > > > >
            > > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost of the
            > > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
            > > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my
            > grandson see
            > > > > the cost recovered.
            > > > >
            > > > > Tom Clarke
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Ted Marynicz
            Hi all, I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5 years experience here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 10, 2010
              Hi all,

              I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
              years experience
              here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are not
              well matched
              *for my wind regime*.

              But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and recommend
              the WindyBoys
              together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy if
              you are in a
              7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
              Scottish islands, for
              example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
              alternative solutions.

              My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the turbine
              and zero
              output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
              inverters, but I
              believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)

              I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a much
              better match for
              use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
              snap if I had the
              money.

              Regards,

              Ted

              P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
              with national
              regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK is
              180 seconds.
              Go figure why.


              On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
              >
              > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
              > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
              > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
              > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
              > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
              > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
              >
              > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
              > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
              > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
              > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
              > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
              > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
              > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
              > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
              > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
              > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
              > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
              > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
              > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
              > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
              > wind inverter.
              >
              > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers
              > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually
              > needed. Active rectifying,
              > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being
              > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
              > confident the one that does
              > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
              >
              > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to
              > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go
              > after it. I personally do
              > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
              >
              > Great conversation guys!
              >
              > Cory Arnold
              > Director of Business Development
              > MC Energy LLC
              > O: 509.926.9463
              > C: 208.360.3788
              > F: 509.892.0609
              > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
              >
              > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
              > >
              > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
              > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
              > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
              > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
              > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
              > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
              > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
              > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
              > > it is expected to charge.
              > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
              > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
              > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
              > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
              > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
              > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
              > >
              > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
              > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
              > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
              > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
              > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
              > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
              > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
              > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
              > > Doug S.
              > >
              > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
              > > <coryarnold@...> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
              > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
              > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
              > grid-tieing far
              > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
              > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
              > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
              > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
              > > watched
              > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
              > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
              > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
              > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
              > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
              > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
              > > >
              > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
              > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
              > > >
              > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way
              > that
              > > > everyone can understand.
              > > >
              > > > Cory Arnold
              > > > Director of Business Development
              > > > MC Energy LLC
              > > > O: 509.926.9463
              > > > C: 208.360.3788
              > > > F: 509.892.0609
              > > > CoryArnold@...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
              > > > >
              > > > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit, a boot
              > > > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
              > > > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
              > > > >
              > > > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
              > > > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
              > > > > inverter limits.
              > > > >
              > > > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
              > > > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
              > > > >
              > > > > Nando
              > > > >
              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > From: Cory Arnold
              > > > > To: Tom Clarke
              > > > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
              > > > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
              > > > >
              > > > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven is the
              > > > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the
              > > inverter
              > > > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter
              > with a
              > > > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of Provens the
              > > > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
              > > > >
              > > > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
              > > > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all
              > > production
              > > > > of the machine.
              > > > >
              > > > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind and has
              > > > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They however are
              > > > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The
              > > question is
              > > > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
              > > > >
              > > > > Cory Arnold
              > > > > Director of Business Development
              > > > > MC Energy LLC
              > > > > O: 509.926.9463
              > > > > C: 208.360.3788
              > > > > F: 509.892.0609
              > > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
              > > > >
              > > > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much,
              > 200kg
              > > > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h machine.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h on the
              > > > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
              > > > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one Proven 6Kw
              > > > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
              > > > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow
              > > mountains
              > > > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
              > > > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost
              > of the
              > > > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
              > > > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my
              > > grandson see
              > > > > > the cost recovered.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > Tom Clarke
              > > > > >
              > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nando
              Ted : Your sitting idle time can be cured with a voltage booster -- to produce lets say 320 Volts at certain RPM, I would need to understand your 6 KW
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 11, 2010
                Ted :

                Your sitting idle time can be cured with a voltage booster -- to produce lets say 320 Volts at certain RPM, I would need to understand your 6 KW Proven generator behavior to suggest how to do it, mostly to know the power generated up to the point your inverters start to operate .

                The Booster would be in parallel and stops once the Proven voltage is above the ( in this case ) 320 Volts.

                Nando

                .
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ted Marynicz
                To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 5:30 AM
                Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works



                Hi all,

                I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                years experience
                here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are not
                well matched
                *for my wind regime*.

                But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and recommend
                the WindyBoys
                together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy if
                you are in a
                7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                Scottish islands, for
                example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                alternative solutions.

                My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the turbine
                and zero
                output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                inverters, but I
                believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)

                I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a much
                better match for
                use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                snap if I had the
                money.

                Regards,

                Ted

                P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                with national
                regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK is
                180 seconds.
                Go figure why.

                On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                >
                > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
                > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
                > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
                > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                >
                > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
                > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
                > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
                > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
                > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
                > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
                > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
                > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
                > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
                > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
                > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
                > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
                > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
                > wind inverter.
                >
                > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers
                > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually
                > needed. Active rectifying,
                > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being
                > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                > confident the one that does
                > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                >
                > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to
                > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go
                > after it. I personally do
                > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                >
                > Great conversation guys!
                >
                > Cory Arnold
                > Director of Business Development
                > MC Energy LLC
                > O: 509.926.9463
                > C: 208.360.3788
                > F: 509.892.0609
                > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                >
                > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                > >
                > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
                > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
                > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
                > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
                > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
                > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
                > > it is expected to charge.
                > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
                > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
                > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                > >
                > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
                > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
                > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
                > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
                > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
                > > Doug S.
                > >
                > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                > > <coryarnold@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
                > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
                > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                > grid-tieing far
                > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
                > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
                > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
                > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
                > > watched
                > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
                > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
                > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
                > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
                > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
                > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
                > > >
                > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
                > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                > > >
                > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way
                > that
                > > > everyone can understand.
                > > >
                > > > Cory Arnold
                > > > Director of Business Development
                > > > MC Energy LLC
                > > > O: 509.926.9463
                > > > C: 208.360.3788
                > > > F: 509.892.0609
                > > > CoryArnold@...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
                > > > >
                > > > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit, a boot
                > > > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
                > > > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
                > > > >
                > > > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
                > > > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
                > > > > inverter limits.
                > > > >
                > > > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
                > > > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
                > > > >
                > > > > Nando
                > > > >
                > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > > From: Cory Arnold
                > > > > To: Tom Clarke
                > > > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
                > > > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
                > > > >
                > > > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven is the
                > > > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the
                > > inverter
                > > > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter
                > with a
                > > > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of Provens the
                > > > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
                > > > >
                > > > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
                > > > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all
                > > production
                > > > > of the machine.
                > > > >
                > > > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind and has
                > > > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They however are
                > > > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The
                > > question is
                > > > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
                > > > >
                > > > > Cory Arnold
                > > > > Director of Business Development
                > > > > MC Energy LLC
                > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                > > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                > > > >
                > > > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much,
                > 200kg
                > > > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h machine.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h on the
                > > > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
                > > > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one Proven 6Kw
                > > > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
                > > > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow
                > > mountains
                > > > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
                > > > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost
                > of the
                > > > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
                > > > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my
                > > grandson see
                > > > > > the cost recovered.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Tom Clarke
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
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              • Cory Arnold
                Nando, A couple of the companies I talked to this about early on when I was dealing with Provens a lot acted as if this would require almost a completely new
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 12, 2010
                  Nando,

                  A couple of the companies I talked to this about early on when I was
                  dealing with Provens a lot acted as if this would require almost a
                  completely new inverter. To clarify they portrayed a voltage booster is
                  in a way its own inverter. When would you boost the voltage is what I am
                  getting at. SMA's take DC and then convert it of course. The voltage
                  range an SMA inverter will take is pretty limited. From my basic
                  knowledge. Would you boost it right after the rectifier ?

                  Just some thoughts and questions that I never finished doing research
                  on. Thought you might be able to shed some light.

                  Cory Arnold
                  Director of Business Development
                  MC Energy LLC
                  O: 509.926.9463
                  C: 208.360.3788
                  F: 509.892.0609
                  CoryArnold@...


                  On 10/11/2010 6:00 PM, Nando wrote:
                  >
                  > Ted :
                  >
                  > Your sitting idle time can be cured with a voltage booster -- to
                  > produce lets say 320 Volts at certain RPM, I would need to understand
                  > your 6 KW Proven generator behavior to suggest how to do it, mostly to
                  > know the power generated up to the point your inverters start to operate .
                  >
                  > The Booster would be in parallel and stops once the Proven voltage is
                  > above the ( in this case ) 320 Volts.
                  >
                  > Nando
                  >
                  > .
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Ted Marynicz
                  > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 5:30 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
                  >
                  > Hi all,
                  >
                  > I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                  > years experience
                  > here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are not
                  > well matched
                  > *for my wind regime*.
                  >
                  > But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and recommend
                  > the WindyBoys
                  > together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy if
                  > you are in a
                  > 7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                  > Scottish islands, for
                  > example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                  > alternative solutions.
                  >
                  > My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the turbine
                  > and zero
                  > output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                  > inverters, but I
                  > believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)
                  >
                  > I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a much
                  > better match for
                  > use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                  > snap if I had the
                  > money.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Ted
                  >
                  > P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                  > with national
                  > regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK is
                  > 180 seconds.
                  > Go figure why.
                  >
                  > On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                  > >
                  > > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                  > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                  > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
                  > > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
                  > > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
                  > > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                  > >
                  > > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
                  > > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
                  > > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                  > > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
                  > > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
                  > > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
                  > > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
                  > > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
                  > > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
                  > > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
                  > > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
                  > > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
                  > > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
                  > > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
                  > > wind inverter.
                  > >
                  > > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers
                  > > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually
                  > > needed. Active rectifying,
                  > > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being
                  > > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                  > > confident the one that does
                  > > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                  > >
                  > > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to
                  > > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go
                  > > after it. I personally do
                  > > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                  > >
                  > > Great conversation guys!
                  > >
                  > > Cory Arnold
                  > > Director of Business Development
                  > > MC Energy LLC
                  > > O: 509.926.9463
                  > > C: 208.360.3788
                  > > F: 509.892.0609
                  > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                  > <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                  > >
                  > > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
                  > > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
                  > > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
                  > > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
                  > > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
                  > > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                  > > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                  > > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
                  > > > it is expected to charge.
                  > > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                  > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                  > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
                  > > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                  > > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
                  > > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                  > > >
                  > > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
                  > > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
                  > > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
                  > > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                  > > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                  > > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
                  > > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                  > > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work
                  > better.
                  > > > Doug S.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                  > > > <coryarnold@...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other
                  > brands
                  > > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
                  > > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                  > > grid-tieing far
                  > > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind
                  > turbine
                  > > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
                  > > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its
                  > start up
                  > > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
                  > > > watched
                  > > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
                  > > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
                  > > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also.
                  > You can
                  > > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or
                  > turns on)
                  > > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
                  > > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on
                  > observation .
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply
                  > involved in
                  > > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way
                  > > that
                  > > > > everyone can understand.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Cory Arnold
                  > > > > Director of Business Development
                  > > > > MC Energy LLC
                  > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                  > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                  > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                  > > > > CoryArnold@...
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit,
                  > a boot
                  > > > > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
                  > > > > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
                  > > > > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
                  > > > > > inverter limits.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
                  > > > > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Nando
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > > > From: Cory Arnold
                  > > > > > To: Tom Clarke
                  > > > > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
                  > > > > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven
                  > is the
                  > > > > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the
                  > > > inverter
                  > > > > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter
                  > > with a
                  > > > > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of
                  > Provens the
                  > > > > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
                  > > > > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all
                  > > > production
                  > > > > > of the machine.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind
                  > and has
                  > > > > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They
                  > however are
                  > > > > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The
                  > > > question is
                  > > > > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Cory Arnold
                  > > > > > Director of Business Development
                  > > > > > MC Energy LLC
                  > > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                  > > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                  > > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                  > > > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much,
                  > > 200kg
                  > > > > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h
                  > machine.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h
                  > on the
                  > > > > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
                  > > > > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one
                  > Proven 6Kw
                  > > > > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
                  > > > > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow
                  > > > mountains
                  > > > > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
                  > > > > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost
                  > > of the
                  > > > > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
                  > > > > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my
                  > > > grandson see
                  > > > > > > the cost recovered.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > Tom Clarke
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nando
                  Cory: The generator, I presume a 3 phase Vac, is rectified and stored in a capacitor -- this the normal way - to be fed to the inverter -- that may have a
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 12, 2010
                    Cory:

                    The generator, I presume a 3 phase Vac, is rectified and stored in a capacitor -- this the normal way -

                    to be fed to the inverter -- that may have a voltage boosting circuit for the inverter to convert the DC to AC power.

                    How this conversion is done, varies with the manufacturer , some do not boost, some boost, the ones that do not boost have to have a voltage that is at least ( 40 Volts ?= varies) above the peak Grid AC voltage for a H bridge inverter.

                    Others use a boosting circuit to have around 400 volts with a half bridge to perform the same function.

                    Most inverters have a MPPT profile -- some have to have a generator power profile to be able to do its work, some the most effective ones, do not need to have generator profiles to do their work.

                    To parallel the booster an extra diode is placed in series between the 3 phase rectifiers and the storage capacitor.
                    The boosting circuit takes the voltage from the 3 phase rectifiers and boost it dumping it to the storage capacitor.

                    The Boosting circuit reads the rectifier voltage to determine when to stop boosting -- that happens once the voltage is above the minimum required by the inverter,

                    The booster power level is defined by the power the wind mill can generate up to the boosting high voltage trip OFF point .

                    Nando


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Cory Arnold
                    Cc: SWH
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 10:01 AM
                    Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works



                    Nando,

                    A couple of the companies I talked to this about early on when I was
                    dealing with Provens a lot acted as if this would require almost a
                    completely new inverter. To clarify they portrayed a voltage booster is
                    in a way its own inverter. When would you boost the voltage is what I am
                    getting at. SMA's take DC and then convert it of course. The voltage
                    range an SMA inverter will take is pretty limited. From my basic
                    knowledge. Would you boost it right after the rectifier ?

                    Just some thoughts and questions that I never finished doing research
                    on. Thought you might be able to shed some light.

                    Cory Arnold
                    Director of Business Development
                    MC Energy LLC
                    O: 509.926.9463
                    C: 208.360.3788
                    F: 509.892.0609
                    CoryArnold@...

                    On 10/11/2010 6:00 PM, Nando wrote:
                    >
                    > Ted :
                    >
                    > Your sitting idle time can be cured with a voltage booster -- to
                    > produce lets say 320 Volts at certain RPM, I would need to understand
                    > your 6 KW Proven generator behavior to suggest how to do it, mostly to
                    > know the power generated up to the point your inverters start to operate .
                    >
                    > The Booster would be in parallel and stops once the Proven voltage is
                    > above the ( in this case ) 320 Volts.
                    >
                    > Nando
                    >
                    > .
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Ted Marynicz
                    > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 10, 2010 5:30 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
                    >
                    > Hi all,
                    >
                    > I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                    > years experience
                    > here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are not
                    > well matched
                    > *for my wind regime*.
                    >
                    > But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and recommend
                    > the WindyBoys
                    > together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy if
                    > you are in a
                    > 7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                    > Scottish islands, for
                    > example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                    > alternative solutions.
                    >
                    > My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the turbine
                    > and zero
                    > output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                    > inverters, but I
                    > believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)
                    >
                    > I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a much
                    > better match for
                    > use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                    > snap if I had the
                    > money.
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Ted
                    >
                    > P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                    > with national
                    > regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK is
                    > 180 seconds.
                    > Go figure why.
                    >
                    > On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                    > >
                    > > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                    > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                    > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
                    > > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
                    > > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
                    > > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                    > >
                    > > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
                    > > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
                    > > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                    > > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
                    > > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
                    > > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
                    > > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
                    > > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
                    > > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
                    > > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
                    > > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
                    > > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
                    > > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
                    > > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
                    > > wind inverter.
                    > >
                    > > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers
                    > > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually
                    > > needed. Active rectifying,
                    > > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being
                    > > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                    > > confident the one that does
                    > > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                    > >
                    > > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to
                    > > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go
                    > > after it. I personally do
                    > > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                    > >
                    > > Great conversation guys!
                    > >
                    > > Cory Arnold
                    > > Director of Business Development
                    > > MC Energy LLC
                    > > O: 509.926.9463
                    > > C: 208.360.3788
                    > > F: 509.892.0609
                    > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                    > <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                    > >
                    > > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
                    > > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
                    > > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
                    > > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
                    > > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
                    > > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                    > > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                    > > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
                    > > > it is expected to charge.
                    > > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                    > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                    > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
                    > > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                    > > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
                    > > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                    > > >
                    > > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
                    > > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
                    > > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
                    > > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                    > > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                    > > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
                    > > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                    > > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work
                    > better.
                    > > > Doug S.
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                    > > > <coryarnold@...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other
                    > brands
                    > > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
                    > > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                    > > grid-tieing far
                    > > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind
                    > turbine
                    > > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
                    > > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its
                    > start up
                    > > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
                    > > > watched
                    > > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
                    > > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
                    > > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also.
                    > You can
                    > > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or
                    > turns on)
                    > > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
                    > > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on
                    > observation .
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply
                    > involved in
                    > > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way
                    > > that
                    > > > > everyone can understand.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Cory Arnold
                    > > > > Director of Business Development
                    > > > > MC Energy LLC
                    > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                    > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                    > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                    > > > > CoryArnold@...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > On 9/30/2010 1:05 PM, Nando wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Wind inverters take in the same voltage to be able to grid-tie.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Basically, the solar inverter may have an additional circuit,
                    > a boot
                    > > > > > circuit to build the voltage up to the operating voltage of the
                    > > > > > inverter to be able to supply the current to the grid.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Wind inverters should have as well a limiting ballast circuit to
                    > > > > > insure that the wind mill does not over voltage the input of the
                    > > > > > inverter limits.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Most wind inverters do have such boost circuit with MPPT profile
                    > > > > > controlled by the inverter observing the boosted voltage behavior.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Nando
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > > From: Cory Arnold
                    > > > > > To: Tom Clarke
                    > > > > > Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2010 9:49 AM
                    > > > > > Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I would say that the one of the bigger issues with the Proven
                    > is the
                    > > > > > use of the Windy Boy Inverter. The fact is the software on the
                    > > > inverter
                    > > > > > is not made for wind at all. This inverter is a solar Inverter
                    > > with a
                    > > > > > wind sticker on it. When I was involved with installs of
                    > Provens the
                    > > > > > inverters still came in sun inverter boxes.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Windy Inverter's take a much higher voltage to grid-tie than other
                    > > > > > inverters. Which in some cases accounts for loss of over all
                    > > > production
                    > > > > > of the machine.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Please don't get me wrong the Proven system is one of a kind
                    > and has
                    > > > > > with stood the test of time(the 3.2 and the 6 kw). They
                    > however are
                    > > > > > using an inverter that does not compliment their system. The
                    > > > question is
                    > > > > > how long will Proven simply ignore this.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Cory Arnold
                    > > > > > Director of Business Development
                    > > > > > MC Energy LLC
                    > > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                    > > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                    > > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                    > > > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > On 9/29/2010 1:58 PM, Tom Clarke wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > >I too am curious about the Proven and why it weighs so much,
                    > > 200kg
                    > > > > > > and how well it works, outputs, etc.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Proven say 6,000Kw/h to 12,000Kw/h annually for the 6Kw/h
                    > machine.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Our machine is up 12 months this week. I thought 3,900 Kw/h
                    > on the
                    > > > > > > Windy Boy was poor, until I checked
                    > > > > > > with a few others. It seems we did quite well, with one
                    > Proven 6Kw
                    > > > > > > user recording less than 2,000Kw/h
                    > > > > > > over the last 18 months. We are in a good location, Wicklow
                    > > > mountains
                    > > > > > > visible 50 mile South, and Mourne
                    > > > > > > mountains visible 50 Miles North, all open country.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > My calculations say it will take 52 years to recover the cost
                    > > of the
                    > > > > > > machine, that is assuming it runs
                    > > > > > > maintainance free for that period. I even wonder will my
                    > > > grandson see
                    > > > > > > the cost recovered.
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Tom Clarke
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
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                  • Doug
                    Ted: Here s a simple solution for you: Add a 3-phase transformer (or 3 single-phase transformers) to the 3-phase output of the turbine. You may want a 2:1
                    Message 9 of 21 , Oct 12, 2010
                      Ted:
                      Here's a simple solution for you:
                      Add a 3-phase transformer (or 3 single-phase transformers) to the 3-phase output of the turbine. You may want a 2:1 transformer.
                      The idea of a transformer (for those who do not know) is to raise (or lower) voltage. Transformers require an AC signal, will not work on DC.
                      You need to raise your voltage - you have an AC signal, therefore you need a transformer!
                      These are available everywhere - maybe as scrap, left over from some industrial use. Check current ratings, should be an easy fix. :)
                      Doug Selsam
                      http://www.selsam.com



                      --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ted Marynicz <ted@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi all,
                      >
                      > I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                      > years experience
                      > here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are not
                      > well matched
                      > *for my wind regime*.
                      >
                      > But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and recommend
                      > the WindyBoys
                      > together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy if
                      > you are in a
                      > 7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                      > Scottish islands, for
                      > example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                      > alternative solutions.
                      >
                      > My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the turbine
                      > and zero
                      > output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                      > inverters, but I
                      > believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)
                      >
                      > I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a much
                      > better match for
                      > use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                      > snap if I had the
                      > money.
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Ted
                      >
                      > P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                      > with national
                      > regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK is
                      > 180 seconds.
                      > Go figure why.
                      >
                      >
                      > On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                      > >
                      > > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                      > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                      > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
                      > > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
                      > > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
                      > > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                      > >
                      > > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
                      > > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
                      > > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                      > > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
                      > > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
                      > > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
                      > > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
                      > > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
                      > > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
                      > > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
                      > > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
                      > > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
                      > > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
                      > > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
                      > > wind inverter.
                      > >
                      > > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers
                      > > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually
                      > > needed. Active rectifying,
                      > > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being
                      > > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                      > > confident the one that does
                      > > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                      > >
                      > > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to
                      > > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go
                      > > after it. I personally do
                      > > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                      > >
                      > > Great conversation guys!
                      > >
                      > > Cory Arnold
                      > > Director of Business Development
                      > > MC Energy LLC
                      > > O: 509.926.9463 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              509.926.9463      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
                      > > C: 208.360.3788
                      > > F: 509.892.0609
                      > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                      > >
                      > > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
                      > > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
                      > > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
                      > > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
                      > > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
                      > > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                      > > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                      > > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
                      > > > it is expected to charge.
                      > > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                      > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                      > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
                      > > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                      > > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
                      > > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                      > > >
                      > > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
                      > > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
                      > > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
                      > > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                      > > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                      > > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
                      > > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                      > > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
                      > > > Doug S.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                      > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                      > > > <coryarnold@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
                      > > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
                      > > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                      > > grid-tieing far
                      > > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
                      > > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
                      > > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
                      > > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
                      > > > watched
                      > > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
                      > > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
                      > > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
                      > > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
                      > > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
                      > > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
                      > > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way
                      > > that
                      > > > > everyone can understand.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Cory Arnold
                      > > > > Director of Business Development
                      > > > > MC Energy LLC
                      > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                      > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                      > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                      > > > > CoryArnold@
                    • Nando
                      DOUG; YES & NOT The problem is the frequency response of the transformer that in some cases do stall the wind mill. Though the idea can be worked out; the
                      Message 10 of 21 , Oct 12, 2010
                        DOUG;

                        YES & NOT

                        The problem is the frequency response of the transformer that in some cases do stall the wind mill.

                        Though the idea can be worked out; the transformer may give additional problems like when to connect or disconnect .

                        Scrap transformers may be OK for one if the interested party knows how to choose or select the proper one.

                        Nando




                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Doug
                        To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2010 11:55 AM
                        Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works



                        Ted:
                        Here's a simple solution for you:
                        Add a 3-phase transformer (or 3 single-phase transformers) to the 3-phase output of the turbine. You may want a 2:1 transformer.
                        The idea of a transformer (for those who do not know) is to raise (or lower) voltage. Transformers require an AC signal, will not work on DC.
                        You need to raise your voltage - you have an AC signal, therefore you need a transformer!
                        These are available everywhere - maybe as scrap, left over from some industrial use. Check current ratings, should be an easy fix. :)
                        Doug Selsam
                        http://www.selsam.com

                        --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ted Marynicz <ted@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi all,
                        >
                        > I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                        > years experience
                        > here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are not
                        > well matched
                        > *for my wind regime*.
                        >
                        > But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and recommend
                        > the WindyBoys
                        > together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy if
                        > you are in a
                        > 7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                        > Scottish islands, for
                        > example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                        > alternative solutions.
                        >
                        > My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the turbine
                        > and zero
                        > output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                        > inverters, but I
                        > believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)
                        >
                        > I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a much
                        > better match for
                        > use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                        > snap if I had the
                        > money.
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Ted
                        >
                        > P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                        > with national
                        > regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK is
                        > 180 seconds.
                        > Go figure why.
                        >
                        >
                        > On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                        > >
                        > > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                        > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                        > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched the
                        > > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target the low
                        > > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but not
                        > > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                        > >
                        > > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran this was
                        > > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The greats
                        > > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                        > > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have to
                        > > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA does
                        > > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose what
                        > > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is the 10
                        > > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In fact
                        > > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went through the
                        > > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter. After
                        > > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better production
                        > > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market right
                        > > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share they
                        > > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best" small
                        > > wind inverter.
                        > >
                        > > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big manufacturers
                        > > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is actually
                        > > needed. Active rectifying,
                        > > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve being
                        > > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                        > > confident the one that does
                        > > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                        > >
                        > > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I talk to
                        > > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will go
                        > > after it. I personally do
                        > > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                        > >
                        > > Great conversation guys!
                        > >
                        > > Cory Arnold
                        > > Director of Business Development
                        > > MC Energy LLC
                        > > O: 509.926.9463 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              509.926.9463      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
                        > > C: 208.360.3788
                        > > F: 509.892.0609
                        > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                        > >
                        > > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend WindyBOY.
                        > > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You get
                        > > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by some
                        > > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage tops.
                        > > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the wind
                        > > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                        > > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                        > > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into which
                        > > > it is expected to charge.
                        > > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to an
                        > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that other
                        > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters matched
                        > > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                        > > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them,
                        > > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                        > > >
                        > > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an inverter,
                        > > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that lets you
                        > > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it should
                        > > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                        > > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                        > > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components in a
                        > > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                        > > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work better.
                        > > > Doug S.
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                        > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                        > > > <coryarnold@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other brands
                        > > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that was my
                        > > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                        > > grid-tieing far
                        > > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind turbine
                        > > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other Inverters were
                        > > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its start up
                        > > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well and
                        > > > watched
                        > > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit its 200
                        > > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just personal
                        > > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also. You can
                        > > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or turns on)
                        > > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to degrade
                        > > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on observation .
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply involved in
                        > > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a way
                        > > that
                        > > > > everyone can understand.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Cory Arnold
                        > > > > Director of Business Development
                        > > > > MC Energy LLC
                        > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                        > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                        > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                        > > > > CoryArnold@





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • toom
                        Yes, but you lose 20% power on average in transformer! ... DC. ... recommend ... if ... turbine ... much ... is ... other ... matched ... the ... this ...
                        Message 11 of 21 , Oct 12, 2010
                          Yes, but you lose 20% power on average in transformer!

                          * Doug <doug@...> [Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:55:48 -0000]:
                          > Ted:
                          > Here's a simple solution for you:
                          > Add a 3-phase transformer (or 3 single-phase transformers) to the
                          > 3-phase output of the turbine. You may want a 2:1 transformer.
                          > The idea of a transformer (for those who do not know) is to raise (or
                          > lower) voltage. Transformers require an AC signal, will not work on
                          DC.
                          > You need to raise your voltage - you have an AC signal, therefore you
                          > need a transformer!
                          > These are available everywhere - maybe as scrap, left over from some
                          > industrial use. Check current ratings, should be an easy fix. :)
                          > Doug Selsam
                          > http://www.selsam.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ted Marynicz <ted@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi all,
                          > >
                          > > I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                          > > years experience
                          > > here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are
                          > not
                          > > well matched
                          > > *for my wind regime*.
                          > >
                          > > But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and
                          recommend
                          > > the WindyBoys
                          > > together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy
                          if
                          > > you are in a
                          > > 7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                          > > Scottish islands, for
                          > > example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                          > > alternative solutions.
                          > >
                          > > My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the
                          turbine
                          > > and zero
                          > > output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                          > > inverters, but I
                          > > believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)
                          > >
                          > > I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a
                          much
                          > > better match for
                          > > use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                          > > snap if I had the
                          > > money.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > >
                          > > Ted
                          > >
                          > > P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                          > > with national
                          > > regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK
                          is
                          > > 180 seconds.
                          > > Go figure why.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to
                          > an
                          > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that
                          other
                          > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters
                          matched
                          > the
                          > > > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                          the
                          > low
                          > > > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but
                          > not
                          > > > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                          > > >
                          > > > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran
                          this
                          > was
                          > > > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The
                          greats
                          > > > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                          > > > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have
                          to
                          > > > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA
                          > does
                          > > > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose
                          > what
                          > > > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is
                          the
                          > 10
                          > > > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In
                          fact
                          > > > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went
                          through
                          > the
                          > > > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter.
                          > After
                          > > > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better
                          > production
                          > > > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market
                          > right
                          > > > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share
                          they
                          > > > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best"
                          > small
                          > > > wind inverter.
                          > > >
                          > > > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big
                          manufacturers
                          > > > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is
                          > actually
                          > > > needed. Active rectifying,
                          > > > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve
                          > being
                          > > > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                          > > > confident the one that does
                          > > > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                          > > >
                          > > > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I
                          talk
                          > to
                          > > > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will
                          go
                          > > > after it. I personally do
                          > > > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                          > > >
                          > > > Great conversation guys!
                          > > >
                          > > > Cory Arnold
                          > > > Director of Business Development
                          > > > MC Energy LLC
                          > > > O: 509.926.9463
                          >
                          begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              509.926.9463      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
                          > > > C: 208.360.3788
                          > > > F: 509.892.0609
                          > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                          > > >
                          > > > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend
                          > WindyBOY.
                          > > > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You
                          > get
                          > > > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by
                          some
                          > > > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage
                          > tops.
                          > > > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the
                          > wind
                          > > > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                          > > > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                          > > > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into
                          > which
                          > > > > it is expected to charge.
                          > > > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it
                          to
                          > an
                          > > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that
                          > other
                          > > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters
                          > matched
                          > > > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters
                          > target
                          > > > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for
                          > them,
                          > > > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an
                          > inverter,
                          > > > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that
                          lets
                          > you
                          > > > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it
                          > should
                          > > > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                          > > > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                          > > > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components
                          in
                          > a
                          > > > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                          > > > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work
                          > better.
                          > > > > Doug S.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                          > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                          > > > > <coryarnold@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other
                          > brands
                          > > > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that
                          was
                          > my
                          > > > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                          > > > grid-tieing far
                          > > > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind
                          > turbine
                          > > > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other
                          Inverters
                          > were
                          > > > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its
                          > start up
                          > > > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well
                          and
                          > > > > watched
                          > > > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit
                          its
                          > 200
                          > > > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just
                          > personal
                          > > > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also.
                          > You can
                          > > > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or
                          > turns on)
                          > > > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to
                          > degrade
                          > > > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on
                          > observation .
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply
                          > involved in
                          > > > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a
                          > way
                          > > > that
                          > > > > > everyone can understand.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Cory Arnold
                          > > > > > Director of Business Development
                          > > > > > MC Energy LLC
                          > > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                          > > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                          > > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                          > > > > > CoryArnold@
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Nando
                          Yes and not, at frequency a good transformer may have 2 to 3 % power losses NOT 20 % -- From where did you get that the transformers have 20 % losses ?. If
                          Message 12 of 21 , Oct 13, 2010
                            Yes and not, at frequency a good transformer may have 2 to 3 % power losses NOT 20 % -- From where did you get that the transformers have 20 % losses ?.

                            If transformers would have 20 % losses, the electric industry may need to produce around 10 to 20 times more energy that is being used to take in account the transformer losses.

                            Nando



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: toom
                            To: Doug
                            Cc: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:31 AM
                            Subject: Re: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works



                            Yes, but you lose 20% power on average in transformer!

                            * Doug <doug@...> [Tue, 12 Oct 2010 16:55:48 -0000]:
                            > Ted:
                            > Here's a simple solution for you:
                            > Add a 3-phase transformer (or 3 single-phase transformers) to the
                            > 3-phase output of the turbine. You may want a 2:1 transformer.
                            > The idea of a transformer (for those who do not know) is to raise (or
                            > lower) voltage. Transformers require an AC signal, will not work on
                            DC.
                            > You need to raise your voltage - you have an AC signal, therefore you
                            > need a transformer!
                            > These are available everywhere - maybe as scrap, left over from some
                            > industrial use. Check current ratings, should be an easy fix. :)
                            > Doug Selsam
                            > http://www.selsam.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Ted Marynicz <ted@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi all,
                            > >
                            > > I find I have to agree with Cory and Doug 100% on this one. I have 5
                            > > years experience
                            > > here running a 6kW Proven with 2x3kW SMA inverters. I find they are
                            > not
                            > > well matched
                            > > *for my wind regime*.
                            > >
                            > > But the issue is that Proven sell this as a package deal and
                            recommend
                            > > the WindyBoys
                            > > together with recommended settings for them. This is fine and dandy
                            if
                            > > you are in a
                            > > 7+ m/s wind regime that Proven have a lot of experience with (in the
                            > > Scottish islands, for
                            > > example) but if you are anywhere else then you may have to look for
                            > > alternative solutions.
                            > >
                            > > My setup spends a huge amount of time sitting on 260V from the
                            turbine
                            > > and zero
                            > > output from the inverters. (260V is the lowest setting for my older
                            > > inverters, but I
                            > > believe that newer ones can now be set a little lower.)
                            > >
                            > > I have reports that the Proven 6kW with the Aurora inverter is a
                            much
                            > > better match for
                            > > use in lower wind areas. I would replace my SMAs with an Aurora in a
                            > > snap if I had the
                            > > money.
                            > >
                            > > Regards,
                            > >
                            > > Ted
                            > >
                            > > P.S. Doug, in Europe that minimum T-Start of 5 seconds has to comply
                            > > with national
                            > > regulations which vary from one country to another - and in the UK
                            is
                            > > 180 seconds.
                            > > Go figure why.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > On 04/10/2010 16:56, Cory Arnold wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > "It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it to
                            > an
                            > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that
                            other
                            > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters
                            matched
                            > the
                            > > > input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters target
                            the
                            > low
                            > > > range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for them, but
                            > not
                            > > > an indication that they are "better" necessarily."
                            > > >
                            > > > True. However in my personal observations and the tests we ran
                            this
                            > was
                            > > > not the case. We compared apples to apples. I assure you. The
                            greats
                            > > > news is in this conversation I have learned something from other
                            > > > professionals. As I am sure others have also. We will simply have
                            to
                            > > > agree to disagree I guess. It is my personal opinion that if SMA
                            > does
                            > > > not step up to the plate and improve their inverter they will lose
                            > what
                            > > > market share they have. The only thing SMA has going for them is
                            the
                            > 10
                            > > > year warranty and internal isolation. Beyond that, not much. In
                            fact
                            > > > last week I was told that someone with a Proven turbine went
                            through
                            > the
                            > > > expense of replacing their SMA Inverter with a power-one inverter.
                            > After
                            > > > a couple weeks of tweeking they started having much better
                            > production
                            > > > numbers. There are pros and cons to all inverters on the market
                            > right
                            > > > now. I have just been surprised that SMA, with the market share
                            they
                            > > > have, has not been the company to push forward to make the "best"
                            > small
                            > > > wind inverter.
                            > > >
                            > > > "According to me, there is a need for one of those big
                            manufacturers
                            > > > of inverters to get in touch with us people aware of what is
                            > actually
                            > > > needed. Active rectifying,
                            > > > included overvoltage protection, wind input, evolving load curve
                            > being
                            > > > a function of wind and power data collecting/processing... I am
                            > > > confident the one that does
                            > > > the right job will get SMA out of the market easily."
                            > > >
                            > > > Amen, I promise you this will happen. The inverter companies I
                            talk
                            > to
                            > > > regularly are very aware of this void and hopefully someone will
                            go
                            > > > after it. I personally do
                            > > > not feel any inverter is the complete package yet.
                            > > >
                            > > > Great conversation guys!
                            > > >
                            > > > Cory Arnold
                            > > > Director of Business Development
                            > > > MC Energy LLC
                            > > > O: 509.926.9463
                            >
                            begin_of_the_skype_highlighting              509.926.9463      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
                            > > > C: 208.360.3788
                            > > > F: 509.892.0609
                            > > > CoryArnold@... <mailto:CoryArnold%40MCWindEnergy.com>
                            > > >
                            > > > On 10/1/2010 11:48 AM, Doug wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I think I HAVE to stand up and say something here to defend
                            > WindyBOY.
                            > > > > 1) A turbine benefits from a SMALL voltage excursion window: You
                            > get
                            > > > > SOME extra power if you allow the voltage to float upward by
                            some
                            > > > > percentage - say 50% over cut-in, MAYBE 100% over cut-in voltage
                            > tops.
                            > > > > The PROBLEM Cory had, that the SMA did not come online til the
                            > wind
                            > > > > blew 15 mph, is NOT a problem with the inverter per se.
                            > > > > The PROBLEM was a MISMATCH of turbine and inverter.
                            > > > > A turbine must be designed to produce the requisite voltage into
                            > which
                            > > > > it is expected to charge.
                            > > > > It makes no sense to buy a 48-Volt nominal turbine, connect it
                            to
                            > an
                            > > > > inverter that starts charging at 193 Volts, then complain that
                            > other
                            > > > > inverters came online sooner. Obviously the other inverters
                            > matched
                            > > > > the input range of the inverter. The fact that some inverters
                            > target
                            > > > > the low range of battery-charging turbines is a good feature for
                            > them,
                            > > > > but not an indication that they are "better" necessarily.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > If your turbine was designed for grid-tie operation using an
                            > inverter,
                            > > > > meaning that your stator was wound for the high voltage that
                            lets
                            > you
                            > > > > use thinner wire, and lets the inverter be economical, then it
                            > should
                            > > > > cut in at a reasonable wind speed.
                            > > > > I know Cory said he is not trying to say anything bad about SMA
                            > > > > WIndyBOY per se. But I just wanted to point out that components
                            in
                            > a
                            > > > > system must match, and comparing unmatched components to matched
                            > > > > components, of course those that are properly matched will work
                            > better.
                            > > > > Doug S.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                            > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > > <mailto:small-wind-home%40yahoogroups.com>, Cory Arnold
                            > > > > <coryarnold@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > After physically testing the windy boy right next to two other
                            > brands
                            > > > > > of inverters that are on the market today side by side, that
                            was
                            > my
                            > > > > > conclusion. In the test we saw the windy boy constantly
                            > > > grid-tieing far
                            > > > > > after other inverters in the same winds(We used the same wind
                            > turbine
                            > > > > > also). The sad part is that sometimes while the other
                            Inverters
                            > were
                            > > > > > sending power back SMA would still not have even started its
                            > start up
                            > > > > > sequence at all. I have been around a lot of Provens as well
                            and
                            > > > > watched
                            > > > > > it not even grid tie until 15 MPH winds because it never hit
                            its
                            > 200
                            > > > > > volts. I do not pretend to know the reason for this, just
                            > personal
                            > > > > > observations. SMA's has alot less customization ability also.
                            > You can
                            > > > > > only change the voltage at which the Inverter grid ties( or
                            > turns on)
                            > > > > > and 240,220, and 200(Don't quote me). My intention is not to
                            > degrade
                            > > > > > the SMA in any way. These are just my personal hands on
                            > observation .
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I also have had direct contact with the man who was deeply
                            > involved in
                            > > > > > building SMA's wind division. He voiced the same concerns.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Once again Nando is right on the money. Giving great info in a
                            > way
                            > > > that
                            > > > > > everyone can understand.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Cory Arnold
                            > > > > > Director of Business Development
                            > > > > > MC Energy LLC
                            > > > > > O: 509.926.9463
                            > > > > > C: 208.360.3788
                            > > > > > F: 509.892.0609
                            > > > > > CoryArnold@
                            >
                            >
                            >





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Doug
                            Nando: I ve noticed the AC frequency of small turbines seems to usually be in the neighborhood of 60 Hz +/-. If this is true of the Proven model than typical
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 13, 2010
                              Nando:
                              I've noticed the AC frequency of small turbines seems to usually be in the neighborhood of 60 Hz +/-. If this is true of the Proven model than typical transformers will work. Of course, as with the parallel discussion of voltage matching, proper matching of components needs to be part of the process. In anything you intend to build.

                              My experience is with a 3-phase transformer that was part of a Southwest Windpower H-175 setup, where the customer had been sent the high-voltage turbine for his 48-volt system. Rather than return it, he purchased their 3-phase transformer, concerned with possible power losses in the lines coming from the turbine.

                              Well it was too late when he realized that with his short wire run, line losses would not be a problem. He wanted to get up and running so the transformer was used, even though he was charging batteries (in a grid-tied system that uses batteries - Trace Xantrex style.

                              When his H-175 finally destroyed itself after less than a year on the tower, and then did it again, we used his tower, battery, controller,and inverter system to mount and run our machines. They have worked fine, either using the transformer with a high-voltage winding, or no transformer with a 48-Volt (nominal) winding, and I have not noticed any difference in the operation with or without the transformer. Not that I have measured it closely but, in a general sense it works fine.
                              Doug Selsam
                              http://www.selsam.com

                              --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > DOUG;
                              >
                              > YES & NOT
                              >
                              > The problem is the frequency response of the transformer that in some cases do stall the wind mill.
                              >
                              > Though the idea can be worked out; the transformer may give additional problems like when to connect or disconnect .
                              >
                              > Scrap transformers may be OK for one if the interested party knows how to choose or select the proper one.
                              >
                              > Nando
                            • Nando
                              Doug: I concur, reason why I said YES & NOT. A short message not detailing the way to do such transformer conversion may give the bad way to implement the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Oct 13, 2010
                                Doug:

                                I concur, reason why I said YES & NOT.

                                A short message not detailing the way to do such transformer conversion may give the bad way to implement the addition of transformers.

                                I have done such conversion to wind mills that was cheaper to do the conversion than to buy a new generator and all the labor to install it and make it operational.

                                Nando


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Doug
                                To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:36 PM
                                Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works



                                Nando:
                                I've noticed the AC frequency of small turbines seems to usually be in the neighborhood of 60 Hz +/-. If this is true of the Proven model than typical transformers will work. Of course, as with the parallel discussion of voltage matching, proper matching of components needs to be part of the process. In anything you intend to build.

                                My experience is with a 3-phase transformer that was part of a Southwest Windpower H-175 setup, where the customer had been sent the high-voltage turbine for his 48-volt system. Rather than return it, he purchased their 3-phase transformer, concerned with possible power losses in the lines coming from the turbine.

                                Well it was too late when he realized that with his short wire run, line losses would not be a problem. He wanted to get up and running so the transformer was used, even though he was charging batteries (in a grid-tied system that uses batteries - Trace Xantrex style.

                                When his H-175 finally destroyed itself after less than a year on the tower, and then did it again, we used his tower, battery, controller,and inverter system to mount and run our machines. They have worked fine, either using the transformer with a high-voltage winding, or no transformer with a 48-Volt (nominal) winding, and I have not noticed any difference in the operation with or without the transformer. Not that I have measured it closely but, in a general sense it works fine.
                                Doug Selsam
                                http://www.selsam.com

                                --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > DOUG;
                                >
                                > YES & NOT
                                >
                                > The problem is the frequency response of the transformer that in some cases do stall the wind mill.
                                >
                                > Though the idea can be worked out; the transformer may give additional problems like when to connect or disconnect .
                                >
                                > Scrap transformers may be OK for one if the interested party knows how to choose or select the proper one.
                                >
                                > Nando





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Doug
                                Nando: In this case I do not even remember now if we currently have a 48-Volt nominal stator in that turbine (charging into a 48-Volt battery bank with
                                Message 15 of 21 , Oct 15, 2010
                                  Nando:
                                  In this case I do not even remember now if we currently have a 48-Volt nominal stator in that turbine (charging into a "48-Volt" battery bank with grid-tie inverter), or are using a high-voltage stator and the transformer. The difference in performance was not remarkable enough to even remember which way it is currently running. What I DO remember is that it worked as perfectly and flawlessly as one could ever hope. Which is always nice in a field where it seems there is always one more thing to go wrong...
                                  :)
                                  Doug Selsam
                                  http://www.selsam.com

                                  --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Doug:
                                  >
                                  > I concur, reason why I said YES & NOT.
                                  >
                                  > A short message not detailing the way to do such transformer conversion may give the bad way to implement the addition of transformers.
                                  >
                                  > I have done such conversion to wind mills that was cheaper to do the conversion than to buy a new generator and all the labor to install it and make it operational.
                                  >
                                  > Nando
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: Doug
                                  > To: small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:36 PM
                                  > Subject: [s-w-h] Re: Proven- how well it works
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Nando:
                                  > I've noticed the AC frequency of small turbines seems to usually be in the neighborhood of 60 Hz +/-. If this is true of the Proven model than typical transformers will work. Of course, as with the parallel discussion of voltage matching, proper matching of components needs to be part of the process. In anything you intend to build.
                                  >
                                  > My experience is with a 3-phase transformer that was part of a Southwest Windpower H-175 setup, where the customer had been sent the high-voltage turbine for his 48-volt system. Rather than return it, he purchased their 3-phase transformer, concerned with possible power losses in the lines coming from the turbine.
                                  >
                                  > Well it was too late when he realized that with his short wire run, line losses would not be a problem. He wanted to get up and running so the transformer was used, even though he was charging batteries (in a grid-tied system that uses batteries - Trace Xantrex style.
                                  >
                                  > When his H-175 finally destroyed itself after less than a year on the tower, and then did it again, we used his tower, battery, controller,and inverter system to mount and run our machines. They have worked fine, either using the transformer with a high-voltage winding, or no transformer with a 48-Volt (nominal) winding, and I have not noticed any difference in the operation with or without the transformer. Not that I have measured it closely but, in a general sense it works fine.
                                  > Doug Selsam
                                  > http://www.selsam.com
                                  >
                                  > --- In small-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "Nando" <nando37@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > DOUG;
                                  > >
                                  > > YES & NOT
                                  > >
                                  > > The problem is the frequency response of the transformer that in some cases do stall the wind mill.
                                  > >
                                  > > Though the idea can be worked out; the transformer may give additional problems like when to connect or disconnect .
                                  > >
                                  > > Scrap transformers may be OK for one if the interested party knows how to choose or select the proper one.
                                  > >
                                  > > Nando
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
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