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RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?

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  • Hugh Piggott
    ... Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would work under a
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 29, 2005
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      At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
      >Matt et al
      >
      >Would you take a look at this one and comment...
      >
      >They are using an AWP alternator.
      >
      >Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
      >
      >http://www.aerotecture.com/

      Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
      the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
      work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
      to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
      axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
      in both cases the result will be low returns.

      I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.

      From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.

      I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
      built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
      inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
      safe.
      --
      Hugh

      Scoraig Wind Electric
      http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
    • Richard Averett
      Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be allowed, and were turbulence
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 3, 2005
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        Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
        urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be allowed, and
        were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
        ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!

        -----Original Message-----
        From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
        Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
        To: Freepower; 'awea network'
        Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?

        At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
        >Matt et al
        >
        >Would you take a look at this one and comment...
        >
        >They are using an AWP alternator.
        >
        >Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
        >
        >http://www.aerotecture.com/

        Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
        the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
        work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
        to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
        axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
        in both cases the result will be low returns.

        I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.

        From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.

        I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
        built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
        inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
        safe.
        --
        Hugh

        Scoraig Wind Electric
        http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/







        ==========================================================
        THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
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        . Please feel free to send your input to:
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        http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
        Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
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        list.
        ----------------------------------------------------------
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        list.
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      • Matt Tritt
        Possibly, but define well enough . As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency capability isn t going to convince the typical (if such a thing exists) homeowner to choose
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 4, 2005
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          Possibly, but define "well enough". As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency
          capability isn't going to convince the typical (if such a thing exists)
          homeowner to choose wind > PV with 15% efficiencies common with that
          technology. Besides, only a very optimistic person would attach a large
          (which it would have to be to accomplish anything) spinning device on
          the roof of his house! =(:>o

          Matt Tritt

          Richard Averett wrote:

          > Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
          > urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be
          > allowed, and
          > were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
          > ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
          > On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
          > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
          > To: Freepower; 'awea network'
          > Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
          >
          > At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
          > >Matt et al
          > >
          > >Would you take a look at this one and comment...
          > >
          > >They are using an AWP alternator.
          > >
          > >Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
          > >
          > >http://www.aerotecture.com/
          >
          > Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
          > the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
          > work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
          > to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
          > axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
          > in both cases the result will be low returns.
          >
          > I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.
          >
          > From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.
          >
          > I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
          > built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
          > inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
          > safe.
          > --
          > Hugh
          >
          > Scoraig Wind Electric
          > http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ==========================================================
          > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > . Please feel free to send your input to:
          > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
          > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > .. To view previous messages from the list,
          > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
          > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
          > (and read it on the Web), go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
          > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
          > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
          > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
          > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
          > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
          > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
          > those wishing to learn more about home energy
          > systems, and takes no responsibility for the
          > opinions or technical advice provided on the
          > list.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > ical advice provided on the
          > list.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ==========================================================
          > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > . Please feel free to send your input to:
          > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
          > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > .. To view previous messages from the list,
          > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
          > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
          > (and read it on the Web), go to
          > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
          > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
          > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
          > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
          > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
          > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
          > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
          > those wishing to learn more about home energy
          > systems, and takes no responsibility for the
          > opinions or technical advice provided on the
          > list.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          > ical advice provided on the
          > list.
          > ----------------------------------------------------------
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          >
          > * Visit your group "awea-wind-home
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home>" on the web.
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Richard Averett
          Let the market define well-enough .and in time, someone WILL capture it - maybe the folks at AEROTECTURE, maybe someone else. But, since NO ONE in this group
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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            Let the market define "well-enough".and in time, someone WILL capture it -
            maybe the folks at AEROTECTURE, maybe someone else.



            But, since NO ONE in this group has a crystal ball, or appears to be
            psychic, only time will tell if our dire energy situation necessitates
            actions that may not be "commercially viable" at this point in time.



            At $60 per barrel, they are starting to look for oil in places that were
            considered "un-profitable" only a decade ago.what about when the price goes
            to $100 per barrel, or $200.then DESPERATION will begin to set in, and who
            knows.



            _____

            From: Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:52 PM
            To: Richard Averett
            Cc: 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
            Subject: Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?



            Possibly, but define "well enough". As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency capability
            isn't going to convince the typical (if such a thing exists) homeowner to
            choose wind > PV with 15% efficiencies common with that technology. Besides,
            only a very optimistic person would attach a large (which it would have to
            be to accomplish anything) spinning device on the roof of his house! =(:>o

            Matt Tritt

            Richard Averett wrote:

            Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
            urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be allowed, and
            were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
            ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!

            -----Original Message-----
            From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
            On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
            Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
            To: Freepower; 'awea network'
            Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?

            At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
            >Matt et al
            >
            >Would you take a look at this one and comment...
            >
            >They are using an AWP alternator.
            >
            >Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
            >
            >http://www.aerotecture.com/

            Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
            the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
            work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
            to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
            axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
            in both cases the result will be low returns.

            I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.

            From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.

            I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
            built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
            inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
            safe.
            --
            Hugh

            Scoraig Wind Electric
            http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/







            ==========================================================
            THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            . Please feel free to send your input to:
            awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
            awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            .. To view previous messages from the list,
            subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
            or stop receiving the list by e-mail
            (and read it on the Web), go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
            . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
            http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
            . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
            the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
            http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
            Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
            those wishing to learn more about home energy
            systems, and takes no responsibility for the
            opinions or technical advice provided on the
            list.
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            ical advice provided on the
            list.
            ----------------------------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links













            ==========================================================
            THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            . Please feel free to send your input to:
            awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
            . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
            awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            .. To view previous messages from the list,
            subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
            or stop receiving the list by e-mail
            (and read it on the Web), go to
            http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
            . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
            http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
            . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
            the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
            http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
            Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
            those wishing to learn more about home energy
            systems, and takes no responsibility for the
            opinions or technical advice provided on the
            list.
            ----------------------------------------------------------
            ical advice provided on the
            list.
            ----------------------------------------------------------





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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Matt Tritt
            The market , in my experience, is a pretty fickle place that doesn t reward poor performance in much of anything. If companies like Aerotecture can figure out
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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              The "market", in my experience, is a pretty fickle place that doesn't
              reward poor performance in much of anything. If companies like
              Aerotecture can figure out how to compete in price and performance with
              properly operating and designed HAWTs, great!
              So far, however, what seems to be the usual situation with verticals is
              that they are too large, too expensive and too inefficient to be
              competitive at all.

              The price of oil is another matter. Since what we are concerned about
              with wind turbines is the production of electricity, the decline in
              cost-effective petroleum availability will most likely stimulate the
              proliferation of nuclear and coal power plants, not the explosion in
              sales of vertical axis wind turbines mounted on urban rooftops. As it
              now stands, photovoltaic is making big inroads only because of the
              availability of market stimulating government programs, and the high
              availability of complying rooftops. Without the presence of appropriate
              government and utility assistance for small wind (something Mike Bergey
              has been beating his head against for years), our real customers will
              simply remain in the off-grid and rural suburban area - places where
              towers are not such a big problem.

              As you might not have noticed, the recently passed "energy bill" (a
              mis-nomer if there ever was one) completely overlooks small wind as a
              source of clean energy (or even energy at all). Instead of getting
              perturbed about the workability of VAWTs on roofs, your energy might be
              better spent is getting our thick-headed legislators to see the light.
              Good luck with that!

              Matt Tritt

              Richard Averett wrote:

              > Let the market define "/well-enough/"...and in time, someone WILL
              > capture it - maybe the folks at AEROTECTURE, maybe someone else.
              >
              >
              >
              > But, since NO ONE in this group has a crystal ball, or appears to be
              > psychic, only time will tell if our dire energy situation necessitates
              > actions that may not be "commercially viable" at this point in time.
              >
              >
              >
              > At $60 per barrel, they are starting to look for oil in places that
              > were considered "un-profitable" only a decade ago...what about when
              > the price goes to $100 per barrel, or $200...then DESPERATION will
              > begin to set in, and who knows...
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > *From:* Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone@...]
              > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:52 PM
              > *To:* Richard Averett
              > *Cc:* 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
              > *Subject:* Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
              >
              >
              >
              > Possibly, but define "well enough". As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency
              > capability isn't going to convince the typical (if such a thing
              > exists) homeowner to choose wind > PV with 15% efficiencies common
              > with that technology. Besides, only a very optimistic person would
              > attach a large (which it would have to be to accomplish anything)
              > spinning device on the roof of his house! =(:>o
              >
              > Matt Tritt
              >
              > Richard Averett wrote:
              >
              > Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
              > urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be
              > allowed, and
              > were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
              > ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
              > [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
              > On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
              > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
              > To: Freepower; 'awea network'
              > Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
              >
              > At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
              >>Matt et al
              >>
              >>Would you take a look at this one and comment...
              >>
              >>They are using an AWP alternator.
              >>
              >>Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
              >>
              >>http://www.aerotecture.com/
              >
              > Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
              > the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
              > work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
              > to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
              > axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
              > in both cases the result will be low returns.
              >
              > I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.
              >
              > From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.
              >
              > I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
              > built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
              > inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
              > safe.
              > --
              > Hugh
              >
              > Scoraig Wind Electric
              > http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ==========================================================
              > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > . Please feel free to send your input to:
              > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
              > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
              > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
              > .. To view previous messages from the list,
              > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
              > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
              > (and read it on the Web), go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
              > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
              > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
              > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
              > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
              > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
              > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
              > those wishing to learn more about home energy
              > systems, and takes no responsibility for the
              > opinions or technical advice provided on the
              > list.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > ical advice provided on the
              > list.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ==========================================================
              > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > . Please feel free to send your input to:
              > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
              > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
              > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
              > .. To view previous messages from the list,
              > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
              > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
              > (and read it on the Web), go to
              > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
              > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
              > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
              > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
              > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
              > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
              > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
              > those wishing to learn more about home energy
              > systems, and takes no responsibility for the
              > opinions or technical advice provided on the
              > list.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              > ical advice provided on the
              > list.
              > ----------------------------------------------------------
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >
              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >
              >
              >
              > * Visit your group "awea-wind-home
              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home>" on the web.
              >
              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ian Woofenden
              Hi Richard, We could also try to design a solar collector to work OK in shade, but it would also be a waste of time, effort, expectations, and money. Some
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 5, 2005
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                Hi Richard,

                We could also try to design a solar collector to work OK in shade,
                but it would also be a waste of time, effort, expectations, and money.

                Some enlightened urban areas (as in Denmark) allow proper towers.
                Perhaps it's because the understand that putting a wind generator on
                a short tower or roof is like putting a solar collector in the
                shade...

                The market that you think someone could own is a market for ignorant
                folks, hucksters, and con-people to exploit, since there just is not
                that much energy in the low speed, turbulent winds that live down
                near houses, trees, and people. The additional investment in a tower
                is always going to pay off in increased energy production, as well as
                smoother operation in the smoother winds aloft.

                Best,

                Ian

                At 12:50 PM -0400 10/3/05, Richard Averett wrote:
                >Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
                >urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be allowed, and
                >were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
                >("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!
                >
                >-----Original Message-----
                >From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
                >On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
                >Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
                >To: Freepower; 'awea network'
                >Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                >
                >At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
                >>Matt et al
                >>
                >>Would you take a look at this one and comment...
                >>
                >>They are using an AWP alternator.
                >>
                >>Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
                >>
                >>http://www.aerotecture.com/
                >
                >Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
                >the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
                >work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
                >to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
                >axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
                >in both cases the result will be low returns.
                >
                >I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.
                >
                > From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.
                >
                >I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
                >built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
                >inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
                >safe.

                --

                Ian Woofenden <ian.woofenden@...>, Senior Editor
                Home Power magazine; Subscriptions: $22.50 per year, PO Box 520,
                Ashland, OR 97520 USA
                800-707-6585 (US), 541-512-0220, or download free sample issue at
                <http://www.homepower.com>
              • Jim Barr
                Bit of a ramble this, but I think it is vaguely on topic. I have recently been traveling around the country with the National Energy Foundation demonstrating
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  Bit of a ramble this, but I think it is vaguely on topic.



                  I have recently been traveling around the country with the National Energy
                  Foundation demonstrating and presenting various renewable energy devices, we
                  have a big van with a wood chip stove, a 340W turbine, 800W solar array,
                  solar thermal devices, and MASSES of smaller devices and literature for
                  education.



                  As well as explaining renewables to the public, schools, architects, city
                  planners, government departments and even the Defense industry, we are also
                  visited by many extremely knowledgeable folk; it has been very educational
                  for me.



                  This is probably not news for any of the folk on this forum, but I think one
                  of our duties is to inform the people who do NOT currently appreciate the
                  energy problem. I am finding that the public, on being made aware of the
                  situation, vary from ill informed to knowledgeable, from surprised to
                  motivated, a few are aggressively anti change but I find that overall the
                  trips are very rewarding.







                  The one point that seems to be ignored too much is that WE should all start
                  by reducing our use of energy. It is generally believed that USA is the
                  worst culprit but all developed countries are risking a serious shock in the
                  next 50 years or sooner when we may be forced to change our habits.



                  Here in UK we waste £3.000.000 annually by simply leaving our TVs on standby
                  when we go on holiday!



                  Recently I was asked to do a bit of research on nuclear power and was
                  surprised to learn that the global reserves of uranium that are available at
                  the current accepted cost of processing will run out in about 20-30 years,
                  to extend that time by another 30 years will mean paying more than double
                  the current price. This came as a shock when I recall how forty years ago we
                  were being told that there was nuclear power for thousands of years!!!



                  With this in mind, it is hard to see how we will manage without wind, wave,
                  solar, geothermal, ground heat pumps etc at some time in the near future.



                  Best wishes,

                  Jim







                  Jim Barr



                  http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wandana/



                  Best is the enemy of good enough



                  Barrs Law of Recursive Futility



                  “If you are smart enough to use one of these….

                  … you can probably manage without one!”



                  _____

                  From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
                  On Behalf Of Matt Tritt
                  Sent: 05 October 2005 16:55
                  To: Richard Averett
                  Cc: 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
                  Subject: Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?



                  The "market", in my experience, is a pretty fickle place that doesn't
                  reward poor performance in much of anything. If companies like
                  Aerotecture can figure out how to compete in price and performance with
                  properly operating and designed HAWTs, great!
                  So far, however, what seems to be the usual situation with verticals is
                  that they are too large, too expensive and too inefficient to be
                  competitive at all.

                  The price of oil is another matter. Since what we are concerned about
                  with wind turbines is the production of electricity, the decline in
                  cost-effective petroleum availability will most likely stimulate the
                  proliferation of nuclear and coal power plants, not the explosion in
                  sales of vertical axis wind turbines mounted on urban rooftops. As it
                  now stands, photovoltaic is making big inroads only because of the
                  availability of market stimulating government programs, and the high
                  availability of complying rooftops. Without the presence of appropriate
                  government and utility assistance for small wind (something Mike Bergey
                  has been beating his head against for years), our real customers will
                  simply remain in the off-grid and rural suburban area - places where
                  towers are not such a big problem.

                  As you might not have noticed, the recently passed "energy bill" (a
                  mis-nomer if there ever was one) completely overlooks small wind as a
                  source of clean energy (or even energy at all). Instead of getting
                  perturbed about the workability of VAWTs on roofs, your energy might be
                  better spent is getting our thick-headed legislators to see the light.
                  Good luck with that!

                  Matt Tritt

                  Richard Averett wrote:

                  > Let the market define "/well-enough/"...and in time, someone WILL
                  > capture it - maybe the folks at AEROTECTURE, maybe someone else.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > But, since NO ONE in this group has a crystal ball, or appears to be
                  > psychic, only time will tell if our dire energy situation necessitates
                  > actions that may not be "commercially viable" at this point in time.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > At $60 per barrel, they are starting to look for oil in places that
                  > were considered "un-profitable" only a decade ago...what about when
                  > the price goes to $100 per barrel, or $200...then DESPERATION will
                  > begin to set in, and who knows...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > *From:* Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone@...]
                  > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:52 PM
                  > *To:* Richard Averett
                  > *Cc:* 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
                  > *Subject:* Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Possibly, but define "well enough". As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency
                  > capability isn't going to convince the typical (if such a thing
                  > exists) homeowner to choose wind > PV with 15% efficiencies common
                  > with that technology. Besides, only a very optimistic person would
                  > attach a large (which it would have to be to accomplish anything)
                  > spinning device on the roof of his house! =(:>o
                  >
                  > Matt Tritt
                  >
                  > Richard Averett wrote:
                  >
                  > Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
                  > urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be
                  > allowed, and
                  > were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
                  > ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                  > [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
                  > On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
                  > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
                  > To: Freepower; 'awea network'
                  > Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                  >
                  > At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
                  >>Matt et al
                  >>
                  >>Would you take a look at this one and comment...
                  >>
                  >>They are using an AWP alternator.
                  >>
                  >>Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
                  >>
                  >>http://www.aerotecture.com/
                  >
                  > Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
                  > the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
                  > work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
                  > to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
                  > axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
                  > in both cases the result will be low returns.
                  >
                  > I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.
                  >
                  > From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.
                  >
                  > I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
                  > built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
                  > inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
                  > safe.
                  > --
                  > Hugh
                  >
                  > Scoraig Wind Electric
                  > http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ==========================================================
                  > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > . Please feel free to send your input to:
                  > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                  > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                  > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                  > .. To view previous messages from the list,
                  > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                  > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                  > (and read it on the Web), go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                  > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                  > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                  > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                  > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                  > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                  > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                  > those wishing to learn more about home energy
                  > systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                  > opinions or technical advice provided on the
                  > list.
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > ical advice provided on the
                  > list.
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ==========================================================
                  > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > . Please feel free to send your input to:
                  > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                  > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                  > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                  > .. To view previous messages from the list,
                  > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                  > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                  > (and read it on the Web), go to
                  > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                  > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                  > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                  > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                  > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                  > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                  > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                  > those wishing to learn more about home energy
                  > systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                  > opinions or technical advice provided on the
                  > list.
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  > ical advice provided on the
                  > list.
                  > ----------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > * Visit your group "awea-wind-home
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home>" on the web.
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  <mailto:awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  ==========================================================
                  THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------
                  . Please feel free to send your input to:
                  awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                  . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                  awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  .. To view previous messages from the list,
                  subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                  or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                  (and read it on the Web), go to
                  http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                  . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                  http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                  . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                  the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                  http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                  Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                  those wishing to learn more about home energy
                  systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                  opinions or technical advice provided on the
                  list.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------
                  ical advice provided on the
                  list.
                  ----------------------------------------------------------





                  _____

                  YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS



                  * Visit your group "awea-wind-home
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home> " on the web.

                  * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  <mailto:awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>

                  * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                  <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.



                  _____



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matt Tritt
                  Excellent point Jim. The amount of purely wasted energy in the US is staggering! A few years ago, someone came out with a study that showed the entire
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 6, 2005
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                  • 0 Attachment
                    Excellent point Jim. The amount of purely wasted energy in the US is
                    staggering! A few years ago, someone came out with a study that showed
                    the entire electrical load of mainland China to be LESS than the load
                    for our domestic refrigerators and freezers. Over here, it is common to
                    find households with two or even three old, grossly inefficient
                    refrigerators, and maybe a chest freezer or two. This is for a single
                    family! I frequently see customers places with $300 to $600 a month
                    electric bills.

                    Go figure.

                    Matt Tritt

                    Jim Barr wrote:

                    > Bit of a ramble this, but I think it is vaguely on topic.
                    >
                    > I have recently been traveling around the country with the National
                    > Energy Foundation demonstrating and presenting various renewable
                    > energy devices, we have a big van with a wood chip stove, a 340W
                    > turbine, 800W solar array, solar thermal devices, and MASSES of
                    > smaller devices and literature for education.
                    >
                    > As well as explaining renewables to the public, schools, architects,
                    > city planners, government departments and even the Defense industry,
                    > we are also visited by many extremely knowledgeable folk; it has been
                    > very educational for me.
                    >
                    > This is probably not news for any of the folk on this forum, but I
                    > think one of our duties is to inform the people who do NOT currently
                    > appreciate the energy problem. I am finding that the public, on being
                    > made aware of the situation, vary from ill informed to knowledgeable,
                    > from surprised to motivated, a few are aggressively anti change but I
                    > find that overall the trips are very rewarding.
                    >
                    > The one point that seems to be ignored too much is that WE should all
                    > start by *reducing* our use of energy. It is generally believed that
                    > USA is the worst culprit but all developed countries are risking a
                    > serious shock in the next 50 years or sooner when we may be forced to
                    > change our habits.
                    >
                    > Here in UK we waste £3.000.000 annually by simply leaving our TVs on
                    > standby when we go on holiday!
                    >
                    > Recently I was asked to do a bit of research on nuclear power and was
                    > surprised to learn that the global reserves of uranium that are
                    > available at the current accepted cost of processing will run out in
                    > about 20-30 years, to extend that time by another 30 years will mean
                    > paying more than double the current price. This came as a shock when I
                    > recall how forty years ago we were being told that there was nuclear
                    > power for thousands of years!!!
                    >
                    > With this in mind, it is hard to see how we will manage without wind,
                    > wave, solar, geothermal, ground heat pumps etc at some time in the
                    > near future.
                    >
                    > Best wishes,
                    >
                    > Jim
                    >
                    > Jim Barr
                    >
                    > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wandana/
                    >
                    > Best is the enemy of good enough
                    >
                    > Barrs Law of Recursive Futility
                    >
                    > “If you are smart enough to use one of these….
                    >
                    > … you can probably manage without one!”
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > *From:* awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Matt Tritt
                    > *Sent:* 05 October 2005 16:55
                    > *To:* Richard Averett
                    > *Cc:* 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
                    > *Subject:* Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                    >
                    > The "market", in my experience, is a pretty fickle place that doesn't
                    > reward poor performance in much of anything. If companies like
                    > Aerotecture can figure out how to compete in price and performance with
                    > properly operating and designed HAWTs, great!
                    > So far, however, what seems to be the usual situation with verticals is
                    > that they are too large, too expensive and too inefficient to be
                    > competitive at all.
                    >
                    > The price of oil is another matter. Since what we are concerned about
                    > with wind turbines is the production of electricity, the decline in
                    > cost-effective petroleum availability will most likely stimulate the
                    > proliferation of nuclear and coal power plants, not the explosion in
                    > sales of vertical axis wind turbines mounted on urban rooftops. As it
                    > now stands, photovoltaic is making big inroads only because of the
                    > availability of market stimulating government programs, and the high
                    > availability of complying rooftops. Without the presence of appropriate
                    > government and utility assistance for small wind (something Mike Bergey
                    > has been beating his head against for years), our real customers will
                    > simply remain in the off-grid and rural suburban area - places where
                    > towers are not such a big problem.
                    >
                    > As you might not have noticed, the recently passed "energy bill" (a
                    > mis-nomer if there ever was one) completely overlooks small wind as a
                    > source of clean energy (or even energy at all). Instead of getting
                    > perturbed about the workability of VAWTs on roofs, your energy might be
                    > better spent is getting our thick-headed legislators to see the light.
                    > Good luck with that!
                    >
                    > Matt Tritt
                    >
                    > Richard Averett wrote:
                    >
                    >> Let the market define "/well-enough/"...and in time, someone WILL
                    >> capture it - maybe the folks at AEROTECTURE, maybe someone else.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> But, since NO ONE in this group has a crystal ball, or appears to be
                    >> psychic, only time will tell if our dire energy situation necessitates
                    >> actions that may not be "commercially viable" at this point in time.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> At $60 per barrel, they are starting to look for oil in places that
                    >> were considered "un-profitable" only a decade ago...what about when
                    >> the price goes to $100 per barrel, or $200...then DESPERATION will
                    >> begin to set in, and who knows...
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> *From:* Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone@...]
                    >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:52 PM
                    >> *To:* Richard Averett
                    >> *Cc:* 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
                    >> *Subject:* Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Possibly, but define "well enough". As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency
                    >> capability isn't going to convince the typical (if such a thing
                    >> exists) homeowner to choose wind > PV with 15% efficiencies common
                    >> with that technology. Besides, only a very optimistic person would
                    >> attach a large (which it would have to be to accomplish anything)
                    >> spinning device on the roof of his house! =(:>o
                    >>
                    >> Matt Tritt
                    >>
                    >> Richard Averett wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
                    >> urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be
                    >> allowed, and
                    >> were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
                    >> ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!
                    >>
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
                    >> On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
                    >> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
                    >> To: Freepower; 'awea network'
                    >> Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                    >>
                    >> At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
                    >>>Matt et al
                    >>>
                    >>>Would you take a look at this one and comment...
                    >>>
                    >>>They are using an AWP alternator.
                    >>>
                    >>>Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
                    >>>
                    >>>http://www.aerotecture.com/
                    >>
                    >> Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
                    >> the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
                    >> work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
                    >> to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
                    >> axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
                    >> in both cases the result will be low returns.
                    >>
                    >> I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.
                    >>
                    >> From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.
                    >>
                    >> I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
                    >> built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
                    >> inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
                    >> safe.
                    >> --
                    >> Hugh
                    >>
                    >> Scoraig Wind Electric
                    >> http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ==========================================================
                    >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
                    >> awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                    >> awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> .. To view previous messages from the list,
                    >> subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                    >> or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                    >> (and read it on the Web), go to
                    >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                    >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                    >> http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                    >> . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                    >> the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                    >> http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                    >> Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                    >> those wishing to learn more about home energy
                    >> systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                    >> opinions or technical advice provided on the
                    >> list.
                    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >> ical advice provided on the
                    >> list.
                    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ==========================================================
                    >> THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >> . Please feel free to send your input to:
                    >> awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                    >> awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> .. To view previous messages from the list,
                    >> subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                    >> or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                    >> (and read it on the Web), go to
                    >> http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                    >> . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                    >> http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                    >> . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                    >> the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                    >> http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                    >> Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                    >> those wishing to learn more about home energy
                    >> systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                    >> opinions or technical advice provided on the
                    >> list.
                    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >> ical advice provided on the
                    >> list.
                    >> ----------------------------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> * Visit your group "awea-wind-home
                    >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home>" on the web.
                    >>
                    >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    >> awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >> <mailto:awea-wind-home-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >>
                    >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ==========================================================
                    > THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                    > ----------------------------------------------------------
                    > . Please feel free to send your input to:
                    > awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                    > . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                    > awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > .. To view previous messages from the list,
                    > subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                    > or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                    > (and read it on the Web), go to
                    > http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                    > . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                    > http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                    > . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                    > the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                    > http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                    > Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
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                  • Donald A Plisco
                    I believe the statement about running out of atomic fission energy sources so soon, might be a bit overstated. There is still alot of raw atomic fisionable
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 7, 2005
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                      I believe the statement about running out of atomic fission energy sources so soon, might be a bit overstated. There is still alot of raw atomic fisionable material out there. Breeder reactors can create alot more. But will the powers-that-be, do so, is another matter.
                      Once thing that will be certain is that petroleum and atomic energy will start to be replaced by other more user-friendly and environmental-safe alternative sources of energy in the next couple of decades; Within a century, petroleum and atomic energy will be completely obsolete. Market forces, along with advances in technology, will dictate those changes....Environmentalists and conservationists probably won't have that much to say about it.
                      In the meanwhile, we can still enjoy the benefits of creating our own windgens and solar arrays and harvesting the energy produced by them.

                      Don in Tulsa
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jim Barr
                      To: 'Matt Tritt' ; 'Richard Averett'
                      Cc: 'Hugh Piggott' ; 'Freepower' ; 'awea network'
                      Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 7:50 AM
                      Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?


                      Bit of a ramble this, but I think it is vaguely on topic.



                      I have recently been traveling around the country with the National Energy
                      Foundation demonstrating and presenting various renewable energy devices, we
                      have a big van with a wood chip stove, a 340W turbine, 800W solar array,
                      solar thermal devices, and MASSES of smaller devices and literature for
                      education.



                      As well as explaining renewables to the public, schools, architects, city
                      planners, government departments and even the Defense industry, we are also
                      visited by many extremely knowledgeable folk; it has been very educational
                      for me.



                      This is probably not news for any of the folk on this forum, but I think one
                      of our duties is to inform the people who do NOT currently appreciate the
                      energy problem. I am finding that the public, on being made aware of the
                      situation, vary from ill informed to knowledgeable, from surprised to
                      motivated, a few are aggressively anti change but I find that overall the
                      trips are very rewarding.







                      The one point that seems to be ignored too much is that WE should all start
                      by reducing our use of energy. It is generally believed that USA is the
                      worst culprit but all developed countries are risking a serious shock in the
                      next 50 years or sooner when we may be forced to change our habits.



                      Here in UK we waste £3.000.000 annually by simply leaving our TVs on standby
                      when we go on holiday!



                      Recently I was asked to do a bit of research on nuclear power and was
                      surprised to learn that the global reserves of uranium that are available at
                      the current accepted cost of processing will run out in about 20-30 years,
                      to extend that time by another 30 years will mean paying more than double
                      the current price. This came as a shock when I recall how forty years ago we
                      were being told that there was nuclear power for thousands of years!!!



                      With this in mind, it is hard to see how we will manage without wind, wave,
                      solar, geothermal, ground heat pumps etc at some time in the near future.



                      Best wishes,

                      Jim







                      Jim Barr



                      http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wandana/



                      Best is the enemy of good enough



                      Barrs Law of Recursive Futility



                      "If you are smart enough to use one of these..

                      . you can probably manage without one!"



                      _____

                      From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Matt Tritt
                      Sent: 05 October 2005 16:55
                      To: Richard Averett
                      Cc: 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
                      Subject: Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?



                      The "market", in my experience, is a pretty fickle place that doesn't
                      reward poor performance in much of anything. If companies like
                      Aerotecture can figure out how to compete in price and performance with
                      properly operating and designed HAWTs, great!
                      So far, however, what seems to be the usual situation with verticals is
                      that they are too large, too expensive and too inefficient to be
                      competitive at all.

                      The price of oil is another matter. Since what we are concerned about
                      with wind turbines is the production of electricity, the decline in
                      cost-effective petroleum availability will most likely stimulate the
                      proliferation of nuclear and coal power plants, not the explosion in
                      sales of vertical axis wind turbines mounted on urban rooftops. As it
                      now stands, photovoltaic is making big inroads only because of the
                      availability of market stimulating government programs, and the high
                      availability of complying rooftops. Without the presence of appropriate
                      government and utility assistance for small wind (something Mike Bergey
                      has been beating his head against for years), our real customers will
                      simply remain in the off-grid and rural suburban area - places where
                      towers are not such a big problem.

                      As you might not have noticed, the recently passed "energy bill" (a
                      mis-nomer if there ever was one) completely overlooks small wind as a
                      source of clean energy (or even energy at all). Instead of getting
                      perturbed about the workability of VAWTs on roofs, your energy might be
                      better spent is getting our thick-headed legislators to see the light.
                      Good luck with that!

                      Matt Tritt

                      Richard Averett wrote:

                      > Let the market define "/well-enough/"...and in time, someone WILL
                      > capture it - maybe the folks at AEROTECTURE, maybe someone else.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > But, since NO ONE in this group has a crystal ball, or appears to be
                      > psychic, only time will tell if our dire energy situation necessitates
                      > actions that may not be "commercially viable" at this point in time.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > At $60 per barrel, they are starting to look for oil in places that
                      > were considered "un-profitable" only a decade ago...what about when
                      > the price goes to $100 per barrel, or $200...then DESPERATION will
                      > begin to set in, and who knows...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > *From:* Matt Tritt [mailto:solarone@...]
                      > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 04, 2005 8:52 PM
                      > *To:* Richard Averett
                      > *Cc:* 'Hugh Piggott'; 'Freepower'; 'awea network'
                      > *Subject:* Re: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Possibly, but define "well enough". As Hugh says, a 5% efficiency
                      > capability isn't going to convince the typical (if such a thing
                      > exists) homeowner to choose wind > PV with 15% efficiencies common
                      > with that technology. Besides, only a very optimistic person would
                      > attach a large (which it would have to be to accomplish anything)
                      > spinning device on the roof of his house! =(:>o
                      >
                      > Matt Tritt
                      >
                      > Richard Averett wrote:
                      >
                      > Yes, but the point is that MOST of the US population is located in
                      > urban/suburban areas where towers (tall or short) will never be
                      > allowed, and
                      > were turbulence is endemic. Anyone who can design a machine to work
                      > ("well-enough") under these circumstances will "own" this market!
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
                      > <mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                      > [mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com]
                      > On Behalf Of Hugh Piggott
                      > Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 2:19 AM
                      > To: Freepower; 'awea network'
                      > Subject: RE: [a-w-h] VAWT - deja vu all over again?
                      >
                      > At 9:27 AM +1200 28/9/05, Freepower wrote:
                      >>Matt et al
                      >>
                      >>Would you take a look at this one and comment...
                      >>
                      >>They are using an AWP alternator.
                      >>
                      >>Plenty of intellectual clout and investment here too...
                      >>
                      >>http://www.aerotecture.com/
                      >
                      > Perhaps too much intellectual clout gets in the way of noticing that
                      > the energy density on such sites is typically low. OK maybe it would
                      > work under a bridge but the idea that it is somehow an advantage not
                      > to put it on a tower is absurd. You could equally put a horizontal
                      > axis machine on a rooftop with no tower (indeed some do nowadays) but
                      > in both cases the result will be low returns.
                      >
                      > I would also worry about fatigue of the blades, and some other issues.
                      >
                      > From their own data the efficiency seems to be about 5% or less.
                      >
                      > I would like to see a successful vertical axis wind turbine for the
                      > built environment, but as yet they all seem very expensive and
                      > inefficient and I do not have confidence that they will be quiet and
                      > safe.
                      > --
                      > Hugh
                      >
                      > Scoraig Wind Electric
                      > http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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