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Re: [a-w-h] cheap wind power design

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  • Lesleigh
    Bingo. Exactly. Whew! Lesleigh ... From: TearDown Cc: Awea Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004
    Message 1 of 48 , Aug 31, 2004
      Bingo. Exactly. Whew!
      Lesleigh
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "TearDown" <teardown@...>
      Cc: "Awea" <awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 2:46 AM
      Subject: Re: [a-w-h] cheap wind power design


      > I make Hakan words mine too.
      >
      > I also would like to add my 2 cents on that.
      >
      > I saw the CBS video and I can say that the phase one of a different
      > aproach to capture some wind energy is done. The machine turns, it's not
      > a draw anymore . And also fit's very well on residencial and comercial
      > buildings by not being agressive monster.
      >
      > Phase two should be now data collected from this on going projects and
      > by my undestanding Mike will also be able to get one to have
      > exaustivity tested and reported to us in the near future. ( Mike, btw ,
      > I am praying here to see an e-mail coming from you saying that the
      > lightning or whatever happened to your system is not more that some
      > cheap parts burned, at least for me your data collected are the most
      > important one for anyone that want information before buying a wind
      machine)
      >
      > And I am not expecting a high efficient machine but something that could
      > encourage people to add some RE at their homes at an affordable price.
      >
      >
      > Marcio Otero
      >
      >
      > Hakan Falk wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Lesleigh,
      > >
      > > It is not really any point to discuss it in this forum, you should know
      > > that already. If properly done the HAWT should be around 35%
      > > efficiency and
      > > the VAWT around 30% efficiency. This we have been told by the literature
      > > and also in some of the education material, that the people that now are
      > > asking you, have written or refers to. Assuming that the researchers and
      > > educators are right, we would know approximately how your VAWTs should
      > > work. The ballpark for the numbers are known, but it is not surprising
      > > that
      > > people are curious, I am too. When you have numbers, please let me know.
      > >
      > > I am personally surprised over the "shoot down attitude" on this list,
      > > for
      > > everything that are not a traditional VAWT. I am also convinced that the
      > > site and designs must incorporate urban and suburban environments, for
      > > small wind to succeed, otherwise it is not real incentive for the
      society
      > > to give grants and support for small wind, instead of large wind. The
      > > contribution from small wind is too low to prioritize it on sites where
      > > large wind can be installed, in fact the large wind should be
      prioritized
      > > instead, so the benefits for the society will be secured.
      > >
      > > The sites that you are talking about, are not an option for HAWT and
      > > therefore you are not directly competing with the current small wind
      > > industry. I sincerely wish that you are successful, because it will also
      > > support the whole small wind industry and looking forward to see the
      > > numbers when you have them. I wish you and your company the best of
      > > luck in
      > > your work.
      > >
      > > Hakan
      > >
      > >
      > > At 08:12 PM 8/31/2004, you wrote:
      > > >There is NO hype and no vapor from this quarter of the Midwest, Don in
      > > >Tulsa. There IS more work to do. I found, LONG ago, that genuine,
      > > >heartfelt, transparent, direct communication is easier to
      manage...less
      > > >to remember and track. That you devalue my input, or disbelieve it, is
      > > >your kettle of fish. Continue to keep your disbelief and
      > > characterization
      > > >of 'hype and sales' to my input...I have no power over your perspective
      > > >and personal filters. Skepticism is useful; seeking understanding is
      > > >useful. Leaps to assumptions and distorted characterizations are not.
      > > >There is nothing vaporous about steel and lexan. Nothing vaporous about
      > > >daily visits to the metal building under our turbines, expecting to
      hear
      > > >noise and hearing non; expecting to see/feel/register the building
      > > vibrate
      > > >and getting none; expecting to see the turbines 'disappear' or be in
      > > >pieces after a 65 mph wind assaulted the 3-story flat roof in Pilsen
      and
      > > >seeing the darn thing spinning, in tact.
      > > >
      > > >Meantime, please visit the website (www.aerotecture.com) and ask that I
      > > >send you our DVD or VHS of the darn things built and installed atop
      that
      > > >metal hut...then look the Pilsen installation photos against the
      Chicago
      > > >skyline...or call Dean Wynne (Illinois Engineered Products @
      > > 312.243.6414)
      > > >, whose sponsorship and use of factory rooftop has helped us do our
      > > >work....or come to Chicago and Evanston to see what's there....NO
      > > >Vapor....just steel, lexan, bolts, bearings, and lots of hard work.
      > > >
      > > >What does "As for selling some parts..." - to what does that refer
      > > regards
      > > >Aerotecture? I'm confused.
      > > >
      > > >I'LL REPEAT: we are AWARE that facts and figures are the most important
      > > >task at hand - we were able to purchase an AWP in June. The
      > > alternator we
      > > >developed ourselves and brought with us to McCormick Place in March is
      > > >finished as its own prototype and is being tested this weekend too. If
      > > >someone else makes an off-the-shelf alternator which fits us, however,
      > > >we'd rather have had that from the beginning.
      > > >
      > > >Regardless, the passion and force behind the breif comment from you,
      > > >D.I.T, commends you to me. I hope we prove to ourselves what we all
      want
      > > >to hear...that there IS affordable, easy to manufacture, effective wind
      > > >energy technology for the built environment and that our technology CAN
      > > >provide another vehicle for moving toward energy productive,
      distributed
      > > >sites. I will inform this valuable discussion group about our testing
      > > this
      > > >weekend...warts and all. This invention thing is a process - which I
      > > >remind myself of daily.
      > > >
      > > >Lesleigh in Wisconsin
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Donald A Plisco
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To: Lesleigh
      > > > Cc: Awea
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:51 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] cheap wind power design
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I see alot of hype and sales talk here...Where are the facts and
      > > > figures on the power generation output? Where is the completed and
      > > > operation wind generator located at? Without that, this is just "pie
      in
      > > > the sky" vapor or proposed yard art.
      > > > As for selling some parts...There are fools out there that will buy
      > > > anything, including vapor. As the good ol' boys say, "That dog won't
      > > hunt".
      > > > Don in Tulsa
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: Lesleigh
      > > > To: Hugh Piggott ; cyruscamp ; awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 11:39 PM
      > > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] cheap wind power design
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Hello. Lesleigh from Aerotecture here.
      > > >
      > > > We are beginning to describe our turbines as U(niversal)AWT as
      > > they are
      > > > installed both vertically and horizontally....and could be
      > > diagonally
      > > > if the
      > > > site suggested that to be most appropriate...I can't tell you
      > > how many
      > > > farmers tell us about (surprising) places where winds blow "all
      > > the time"
      > > > and begin to describe otherwise unthought of sites!
      > > >
      > > > Although we have MUCH left to do (Mike Klemen, we are building a
      > > > turbine for
      > > > your wonderful patch of test land), I can tell you that we:
      > > > + have already passed 2 city codes - Evanston and Round Lake
      > > Illinois
      > > > - we
      > > > think Oak Park may be on the way too
      > > > + sold several of our prototypes (sans genset) for between $5000
      > > and
      > > > $10000
      > > > each...eventually sold one installation @ $2500 each
      > > turbine...and are
      > > > working to get the turbines themselves low enough in cost and
      > > paired
      > > > with a
      > > > low-enough-in-cost genset (including a battery-free option for
      > > > residences in
      > > > particular) to be 'quite' affordable...particularly since the
      > > cost of
      > > > towers
      > > > need not, necessarily, be factored in as the aeroturbines are
      > > already
      > > > building-integratable in FACT, not in THEORY
      > > > + have been installed on a metal quonset in Wisconsin and atop 2
      > > 3-story
      > > > factory rooftops in Chicago for nearly 3 years without faltering,
      > > > flinging
      > > > parts, flagging in the snow, failing to self-regulate in even a
      > > 65-70 mph
      > > > wind
      > > > + do NOT require towers - right now, we are asking a site to have
      a
      > > > yearly
      > > > avg mph of between 9 and 12; and DO suggest that 20' is a
      > > minimum height
      > > > from the ground for installation (although many, many people say
      > > the
      > > > have a
      > > > lower site which is PLENTY windy, MUCH of the time)
      > > > + were designed to be modular and not larger and larger for more
      > > > power; and
      > > > were designed to be paired with solar (in particular) and other
      REs
      > > > + have benefited, and greatly appreciate, the counsel (in private
      > > > conversation) from several of the 'heavy' participants and wind
      > > > luminaries
      > > > amongst us on this discussion group - skepticism has NOT
      > > prevented these
      > > > experts from entertaining our hard work, our idea, and our vision
      > > > seriously
      > > > enough to grant phone time, to share personal tech resource
      > > networks,
      > > > and to
      > > > provide hopeful encouragement...oh!...and PLENTY of friendly
      > > warnings,
      > > > cautions, reminders of what is already 'known' about our 'kind' of
      > > > technology
      > > > + are aware that DATA is our most important task (we turbine
      > > test our
      > > > AWP,
      > > > delivered us at MREA in June, this coming weekend)
      > > > + have been specified in the Lakefront Supportive Housing in
      Chicago
      > > > designed by Helmut Jahn - I believe 16 paired turbines are
      > > specified - we
      > > > will have drawings on our site by mid-September or sooner - and
      > > photos as
      > > > soon as building construction begins and photos are allowed by the
      > > > project
      > > > on our site
      > > > + are being included in the Vancouver Art Gallery's Massive Change
      > > > traveling
      > > > exhibit (as suggested by Doug Chapman at Bruce Mau Design)
      > > > + work hard to ensure that we describe ourselves and our status
      > > AS IT
      > > > IS...not as we'd like to be (although we DO have a vision: zero-or
      > > > net-productive buildings and built structures worldwide)...and not
      > > > nearly as
      > > > quickly as we would like
      > > >
      > > > Thank you for your interest, doubt, encouragement, and passion.
      > > >
      > > > Lesleigh Lippitt
      > > > cell: 608.393.2323
      > > >
      > > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > > From: "Hugh Piggott" <yahoo@...>
      > > > To: "cyruscamp" <cyruscamp@...>;
      > > <awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
      > > > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2004 2:59 AM
      > > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] cheap wind power design
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > > At 11:28 AM +0000 29/8/04, cyruscamp wrote:
      > > > > >Hello,
      > > > > > I am new to this group but I am hoping someone can
      > > answer my
      > > > > >question. I was
      > > > > >surfing the net about a month ago and I came across a site for
      a
      > > > > >company who is
      > > > > >developing a windpower system that instead of using large
      rotors,
      > > > > >used a horizontal spiral
      > > > > >(kind of like this:
      > > > <http://www.colors-wind.com/acc>http://www.colors-wind.com/acc
      > > > > >essories/Images/NovaHelix.jpg) which
      > > > > >appeared to be made out a a wire frame and cloth surface
      > > (twisted to
      > > > > >make the spiral, but
      > > > > >maybe only one or 2 revolutions). The set up they had looked
      > > > > >very afforadble and compact, no longer than 5ft. Anyway, I
      > > can't find
      > > > > >their website
      > > > > >anymore and I was hoping someone on this list might know
      > > about it.
      > > > >
      > > > > what about
      > > <http://www.aerotecture.com/>http://www.aerotecture.com/
      > > > >
      > > > > That's in Illinois. Not sure if it's cheap but it is a
      horizontal
      > > > > spiral. It's 'transverse axis' and as such has all the
      > > disadvantages
      > > > > of a VAWT without the omni-directional feature.
      > > > >
      > > > > My views on this sort of thing do not need to be repeated.
      > > > > --
      > > > > Hugh
      > > > > Scoraig Wind Electric
      > > > > <http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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    • windtestingcom
      Truck testing is a great alternative to the expense of tunnel testing and tower testing as long as you understand the pros. and cons. The benefits include but
      Message 48 of 48 , Dec 28, 2004
        Truck testing is a great alternative to the expense of tunnel testing
        and tower testing as long as you understand the pros. and cons.

        The benefits include but are not limited to:
        Quick deployment,
        Lower costs,
        Availability,
        Ease of configuration changes,
        Etc.

        Some of the important things to remember are:
        You must do some pretest calibration to understand the different flow
        characteristics between the turbine and the anemometer locations at
        different speeds (don't rely on your vehicle speedometer).
        You must check local vehicle codes (most limit your height to 16.5').
        You must pre-run your test course and check for low hanging wire
        crossings.
        You must wait for a calm day.
        You should remember that you might be held partially liable for an
        accident if you distract other drivers.
        Be prepared to be very polite with the highway patrol, as they will
        stop you to measure your set-up. I think they are just as curious as
        the other drivers that will turn around and follow you just to watch.
        Be sure to do your testing off of public roads, especially on the
        first run.
        Be prepared for your vehicle to handle much differently than it did
        before the turbine installation.
        Be sure your vehicle is heavy enough to maintain control of the
        turbine you plan to test.

        Here is picture of one of the larger turbines that we have truck
        tested. (posted with permission of the developer)

        http://www.windtesting.com/trucktest.html

        Remember a tunnel also has very different characteristics than a
        tower. We have seen turbines handle a tunnel quite well only to have
        very different results with the turbulence in the real world on a tower.

        Truck testing is a great tool, but not quite as simple as it may seem
        at first look.

        Don't give up on your ideas, they all have a place.

        Best regards,

        Brent


        --- In awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, "dougselsam" <directaudio@s...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > I might add if you haven't thought about it:
        > Truck testing is an old standby that does have its advantages.
        > It's a lot easier to move the turbine than the air. An advantage is
        > if you start with still air, you have a fairly laminar flow to start
        > with, assuming decent vehicle clearance. And while few people have
        > wind tunnels, practically everyone has a motor vehicle. In essence,
        > if you have a truck, you already have one of mother nature's finest
        > wind tunnels. When God created the truck, he accidentally created a
        > wind tunnel for each of his children around the world. I believe
        > that research-class anemometers are calibrated this way.
        > Doug Selsam
        > http://www.superturbine.info
        > P.S. if you use a truck to test a vertical axis drag machine, you
        > have the advantage that when you see the results, you can simply
        > drive your "wind tunnel" off a cliff!
        >
        >
        > --- In awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com, Paul Gipe <pgipe@i...> wrote:
        > >
        > > CEC, I'd agree with Don. It's the wrong question to be asking. A
        > better
        > > question is why you need a wind tunnel in the first place. Most of
        > the wind
        > > products hyped with "wind tunnel tests" were just that hype. Fly
        > it in the
        > > real world and then tell us what you found out.
        > >
        > > And CEC, it's always best to sign your real name so we know who
        > we're
        > > dealing with.
        > >
        > > Paul Gipe
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: "Donald A Plisco"
        > > <<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home/post?
        > postID=HgDiT74y2Vr2ort0E_UQlRqJgaKeC2Ej3e8YZ_iC5RLjdCMqOEoupcosP0JQLk
        > eXI_MKpZGeVw>dplisco@c...>
        > >
        > > Date: Thu Dec 23, 2004 10:01 am
        > > Subject: Re: [a-w-h] Wind Tunnel Design
        > >
        > >
        > > No, you don't need to anchor your tunnel...It's fun watching them
        > fly away. Is
        > > it possible to build a tunnel out of plywood and 2x4s? Of
        > course...You can
        > > build
        > > it out of toothpicks. Will it last? Depends on if the builder is
        > competent or
        > > not...If you have to ask, probably not. Is the length of the
        > tunnel critical?
        > > Depends on what type of win gen turbine you are going to use it on
        > (which you
        > > conveniently left out). The answer is probably yes. But you have
        > to be more
        > > specific. Your questions are too vague to answer.
        > > CEC, a word of wisdom...If you are a very young person, my words
        > might seem a
        > > bit harsh, but you have to build a minimum base knowledge of any
        > subject, to be
        > > able to ask an intelligent question. This, in turn, deserves an
        > legitimate
        > > answer. Right now, you don't warrent a sincere reply...I'm not
        > trying to be
        > > mean, but honest. Go do your homework and come back. There are many
        > > knowledgeable and generous people here who love to help young
        > people with wind
        > > generation questions and discussions about it, but you have ask an
        > intelligent
        > > question first, so that they can help you. Do your homework first
        > and then we
        > > will love to help you. Merry Christmas.
        > > Don in Tulsa
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: cec
        > > To: Awea
        > > Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2004 3:51 PM
        > > Subject: [a-w-h] Wind Tunnel Design
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi,
        > >
        > > Anybody here experienced building a small wind tunnel?
        > > Is it possible to build a tunnel with plywood and 2x4s?
        > > If I have a cross-section of the tunnel (4 x 5 m (13 x 16 feet),
        > how
        > > to calculate size/power/air_flow of axial fans to get 1 to 30 m/s
        > wind?
        > > Is the length of the tunnel critical?
        > >
        > > (Do I need to anchor my tunnel before it starts flying :-)
        > >
        > > Appreciate your support!
        > >
        > > Sincerely,
        > > CEC
        > > >
        > > Paul Gipe
        > > Ontario Sustainable Energy Association
        > > 401 Richmond Street West, Suite 401
        > > Toronto, ON M5V 3A8 Canada
        > > +416 977 4441, 416 535 4563, 661 472 1657 mobile
        > > pgipe@i...
        > > www.ontario-sea.org
        > > Community.Power.
        > >
        > > <http://www.wind-works.org/books/wind_power2004_home.html>Wind
        > Power:
        > > Renewable Energy for Home, Farm, and Business (ISBN: 1-931498-14-
        > 8), 2004.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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