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Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD

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  • James Hanlon
    Historical failures of any technology have many causes. Usually it s the lack of financial ability to see the idea through to market. That doesn t mean the
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 31, 2004
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      Historical failures of any technology have many causes. Usually it's the lack of financial ability to see the idea through to market. That doesn't mean the ideas were "impossible". There were undoubtedly many attempts at manned flight before the Wright Brothers finally proved it was possible. Even so, their critics were still claiming it to be "impossible" for the ensuing 5 years, L.O.L. Tesla was ridiculed for his idea regarding A/C. It's always easier to be a skeptic than keep an open mind. Nothing new there, L.O.L.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: med Barnell<mailto:waray002@...>
      To: Hugh Piggott<mailto:yahoo@...>
      Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 10:48 AM
      Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


      The MARKET not of yesterday, today but TOMORROW.
      Be left behind on an arcane mindset. the MARKET is not passive. it is dynamic.
      It happened in the PC industry, the Car guzzlers, etc. etc. etc.
      We thrive on surplus of everything.....
      Maybe they just closed shop.
      Or maybe they had their minds on controlling the MARKET.
      Or maybe we'll just see it.
      A year from now what happens to these HAWT. It will start to stagnate. what we will see inthe market demand is a downhill curve, except for replacement and some innovative
      changes comes around demand will not pick up.
      It is not about stock offers, but the unity limit of saturation vs. demand.
      A mass production to flood the market, in the end similar products will compete on a singular client with nothing to compare but the copy text on the brochure.

      As for me, i don't mind about the market, but what I am after is how to get the most of the lowest prevalent wind speed whatever the cost. How would a HAWT high pole genset and turbine fare with an average typhoon frequency of 21 in the Pacific? with a usual 2 coconut trees downed per 8 acres in every typhoon event. culminated with raging flood.

      How do we choose a suitable configuration for household use in a clustered community if it will alarm the surrounding houses of high probability of disaster brought about by its erection in close proximity. VAWT and mini genset clusters will be the route to full utilization of renewable wind energy.

      Regarding market, there is no market here in this part of the Pacific. people will not buy, they will just copy from scrap.

      My venture into this thype of energy resource was driven by lack of emergency power
      available, It is like end of the world "always" scenario here.

      regards.


      Hugh Piggott <yahoo@...<mailto:yahoo@...>> wrote:
      At 8:29 AM -0700 24/7/04, med Barnell wrote:
      >
      >maybe the market will be the judge.

      The Darreius turbine has been around for many decades. The ones
      installed in the California wind rush in the early 1980s failed. The
      market has judged. We do not see them being sold anywhere now.
      --
      Hugh

      Scoraig Wind Electric
      http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/<http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>

      Home from Ghana



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      . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
      http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen> .
      . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
      the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
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      Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
      those wishing to learn more about home energy
      systems, and takes no responsibility for the
      opinions or technical advice provided on the
      list.
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      list.
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      ==========================================================
      THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      . Please feel free to send your input to:
      awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
      . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
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      .. To view previous messages from the list,
      subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
      or stop receiving the list by e-mail
      (and read it on the Web), go to
      http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home<http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home> .
      . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
      http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen> .
      . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
      the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
      http://www.awea.org<http://www.awea.org/> . AWEA maintains the Home
      Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
      those wishing to learn more about home energy
      systems, and takes no responsibility for the
      opinions or technical advice provided on the
      list.
      ----------------------------------------------------------
      ical advice provided on the
      list.
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    • James Hanlon
      Hugh: I ve been on this forum for nearly two years now. What I ve learned in that time is the names of the experts you being recognized by your peers as one
      Message 2 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        Hugh: I've been on this forum for nearly two years now. What I've learned in that time is the names of the "experts" you being recognized by your peers as one . Another thing that seems quite evident is that the "small wind" HAWT's spend a whole lot of time under repair. They may "work " but for how much of the time??
        It takes an engineer to own one unless he wants to spend a fortune on the maintenance. L.O.L.!!! Doesn't that mean you fellas should quit trying??? Isn't that a waste of time & money?? Aren't you apt to be an embarrassment to the wind power industry?? Hmmmm.

        You fellas crack me up with all of your fretting, L.O.L. Could it be that you're in fear that the Wind Tree could indeed be a success and upset your apple carts?? I've come to the belief that you fellas are simply biased and wondering how you can protect your domains. Everyone should show respect and accommodate you in that regard, right?? After all you're the "experts" therefore if you say it's "impossible" then it must be.

        ------- To avoid criticism one must say nothing, do nothing, be nothing -----

        Well, it won't be long now and we'll all find out if the Wind Tree is viable or simply a piece of junk. You already know who I'll be rooting for, L.O.L.

        Jim
        ( Aristotle )


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Hugh Piggott<mailto:yahoo@...>
        To: James Hanlon<mailto:jhsolar@...> ; Hugh Piggott<mailto:yahoo@...> ; med Barnell<mailto:waray002@...>
        Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 11:50 PM
        Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


        At 2:01 PM -0700 31/7/04, James Hanlon wrote:
        >Historical failures of any technology have many causes. Usually it's
        >the lack of financial ability to see the idea through to market.
        >That doesn't mean the ideas were "impossible". There were
        >undoubtedly many attempts at manned flight before the Wright
        >Brothers finally proved it was possible. Even so, their critics were
        >still claiming it to be "impossible" for the ensuing 5 years, L.O.L.
        >Tesla was ridiculed for his idea regarding A/C. It's always easier
        >to be a skeptic than keep an open mind. Nothing new there, L.O.L.

        As usual in the debate about vertical axis, I am characterised as
        having a closed mind. It is true that my personality is convergent.
        But I am open to considering any new ideas. I just have not heard
        any in this thread. Just the same old nonsense.

        Manned flight has some advantages. Vertical axis does not have any
        noticeable advantages. You can put it at ground level in a box if
        you like, but you won't catch much power! The power in the wind
        varies with the cube of the windspeed, and the wind is much stronger
        on top of a tower. So it would be like putting a solar panel in the
        shade or trying to drink from a puddle. Putting a vertical axis up
        on a tower where it can catch useful power is actually rather
        difficult because they are such an awkward shape.

        Talking about being interested in something new, why not have a look
        at http://www.ropatec.com/<http://www.ropatec.com/> At least these guys ave a new style of
        rotor. Let's see how much market they can catch.

        Why does nobody believe me when I say that there has been plenty of
        financial backing for VAWTs and plenty of testing and marketing done?
        A Canadian company was building them in large numbers (Flowind?) and
        there were all sorts of Cycloturbines etc... I also saw a
        straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s.

        It mostly took place a while ago, it is true, but still even now,
        everywhere I go I see evidence of VAWT activity going on, wasting
        people's time and money. I wonder if any lessons are being learned,
        or whether these are always guys who have just discovered this 'new'
        technology of the future?

        Here is a quote from a supporting message I got from a lurker on this list:

        At 3:16 PM -0700 28/7/04, Jim Nelson wrote:
        >
        >I live less than 10 miles away from NREL's Wind Testing Site on the
        >Rocky Flats area here.
        >I used to see various VAWTs as well as the HAWTs there. Most of the
        >verticals were not operating or had been torn up in the winds there.
        >The HAWTs had a few problems early on but always survived.
        >
        >Since that time, which was about 20 years ago, I have seen no VAWTs
        >there. Only HAWTs. They are positioned over a large area of the
        >former Nuclear trigger facility.
        > There are more going up for testing all the time. It seems that
        >they are never taken down as there are more every year. Thes range
        >in size from small 1kw units all the way up to the huge commercial
        >turbines. All VAWTS have been removed as far as I can see.

        I guess Rocky Flats have got closed minds too.

        oh well.

        --
        Hugh

        Scoraig Wind Electric
        http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/<http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • med Barnell
        Hello EWA! I tried experiment on what you said about tape deck motors using rotor from an aluminum cut out to 6 in dia. swept area and twisted on the edges. It
        Message 3 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004
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          Hello EWA!

          I tried experiment on what you said about tape deck motors using rotor from an aluminum cut out to 6 in dia. swept area and twisted on the edges. It charged 3 20AH UPS discarded batteries. Originally, I store up charge on my batteries for emergencies and outages lasting through the night. I have 12V wired lighting on every room in the house. Charged to trickle with a 6 amp charger.

          I have assembled a 1.0KVA inverter and intends to build a bigger one for every ckt branch and subfeeders. I used N3055/2955 in parallel pairs rated at 150Watts a pair.
          higher rated transistors are scarce in our area. No parts no market, but promising, it has yet to bud.

          When I have have R-&-R time (usually after handover of a project), I indulge in this hobby.

          Ok am not buiding a Darrieus, like anyone else would think, I do scrimp on expense. It is more like a Savonious but a modified one. I have also made a 2'-6" blade to make a 5' Tri-rotor for a test. But still have to find a suitable drum stator or better have to get a similar automotive alternator.

          My father has sunk 4 PVC pipe lengths casing and poured the foundations, along with the sleeve in the rice farm in anticipation.

          I will see for myself which one will generate power readily with the prevailing wind we have here.

          attached, my design (version), of a passive wind gen turbines. VAWT and HAWT small scale.

          In my stay with awea, I just tried to coax ideas how I may go about in this.
          It has been a long overdue intention. I have been aware of this revolutionary energy resource. years ago. with only a figment of the idea. culled from the files, referenceand video tapes of USIS Library in Buendia, Makati.

          Thanks, AWEA and you people... pro or con. whatever the attitude we show in this argument.. er discussion, it is the info and links that did it.

          Loosen up.. .
          One day, I will be able to go "off-grid, " in your terminology.



          Donald A Plisco <dplisco@...> wrote:
          I'm having trouble understanding all of this misinformation.....

          What does the price of tea in China has to do with a turbine blade's ability to withstand a full-blown typhoon's fury? That is like saying my wind gen's tower must be built to withstand a class 4 tornado....If you suffer a direct hit, you're simply out of luck....It's "Dorothy in Kansas" time.

          A heavy typhoon is going to blow away most of the island, include ANY type of turbine. It will blow away boats, docks, homes, trees, dogs, cats, people....And yes, all types of turbines.

          NOTE: The abilty to withstand excessive wind depends on the tower's heavy design and the furling ability, not blade design. Granted, a vertical turbine is extremely inefficient and won't catch much of a strong wind's energy. But a typhoon?

          I'm sure you could build a tower strong enough to withstand any typhoon, but to what avail? If the tyhoon is that strong, what are you gonna run electricity to?

          In the meanwhile, when half of the island is not being subject to a disappeering act, wouldn't it make sense to build a wind gen that is worth the effort, and not have a payback time measured in centuries, if ever?

          I think a willingness to compare facts to facts and not pipedreams, is a good beginning for anyone wanting to fly a wind gen. Wind gens don't fly on wishful thinking.

          Don in Tulsa

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: med Barnell
          To: Hugh Piggott
          Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, July 30, 2004 12:48 PM
          Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


          The MARKET not of yesterday, today but TOMORROW.
          Be left behind on an arcane mindset. the MARKET is not passive. it is dynamic.
          It happened in the PC industry, the Car guzzlers, etc. etc. etc.
          We thrive on surplus of everything.....
          Maybe they just closed shop.
          Or maybe they had their minds on controlling the MARKET.
          Or maybe we'll just see it.
          A year from now what happens to these HAWT. It will start to stagnate. what we will see inthe market demand is a downhill curve, except for replacement and some innovative
          changes comes around demand will not pick up.
          It is not about stock offers, but the unity limit of saturation vs. demand.
          A mass production to flood the market, in the end similar products will compete on a singular client with nothing to compare but the copy text on the brochure.

          As for me, i don't mind about the market, but what I am after is how to get the most of the lowest prevalent wind speed whatever the cost. How would a HAWT high pole genset and turbine fare with an average typhoon frequency of 21 in the Pacific? with a usual 2 coconut trees downed per 8 acres in every typhoon event. culminated with raging flood.

          How do we choose a suitable configuration for household use in a clustered community if it will alarm the surrounding houses of high probability of disaster brought about by its erection in close proximity. VAWT and mini genset clusters will be the route to full utilization of renewable wind energy.

          Regarding market, there is no market here in this part of the Pacific. people will not buy, they will just copy from scrap.

          My venture into this thype of energy resource was driven by lack of emergency power
          available, It is like end of the world "always" scenario here.

          regards.


          Hugh Piggott <yahoo@...> wrote:
          At 8:29 AM -0700 24/7/04, med Barnell wrote:
          >
          >maybe the market will be the judge.

          The Darreius turbine has been around for many decades. The ones
          installed in the California wind rush in the early 1980s failed. The
          market has judged. We do not see them being sold anywhere now.
          --
          Hugh

          Scoraig Wind Electric
          http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/

          Home from Ghana



          ==========================================================
          THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
          ----------------------------------------------------------
          . Please feel free to send your input to:
          awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
          awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          .. To view previous messages from the list,
          subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
          or stop receiving the list by e-mail
          (and read it on the Web), go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
          . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
          http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
          . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
          the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
          http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
          Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
          those wishing to learn more about home energy
          systems, and takes no responsibility for the
          opinions or technical advice provided on the
          list.
          ----------------------------------------------------------
          ical advice provided on the
          list.
          ----------------------------------------------------------



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          ==========================================================
          THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
          ----------------------------------------------------------
          . Please feel free to send your input to:
          awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com
          . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
          awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          .. To view previous messages from the list,
          subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
          or stop receiving the list by e-mail
          (and read it on the Web), go to
          http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
          . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
          http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
          . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
          the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
          http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
          Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
          those wishing to learn more about home energy
          systems, and takes no responsibility for the
          opinions or technical advice provided on the
          list.
          ----------------------------------------------------------
          ical advice provided on the
          list.
          ----------------------------------------------------------



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          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/awea-wind-home/

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        • med Barnell
          Right on the Head! Anyone in this forum can say he built the wind farms I saw in movies? Small Wind is small wind. As for those bragged about patents on HAWT,
          Message 4 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Right on the Head!
            Anyone in this forum can say he built the wind farms I saw in movies?

            Small Wind is small wind.
            As for those bragged about patents on HAWT, are there subscriptions offers from
            large manufacturers and/or investors?
            Or is it still being funded by tax payers' money, in perpetuum?
            And all the while, its gain is shifted to some company for test market.
            With UL certifications except the genset and the turbine?
            Why?


            James Hanlon <jhsolar@...> wrote:
            Hugh: I've been on this forum for nearly two years now. What I've learned in that time is the names of the "experts" you being recognized by your peers as one . Another thing that seems quite evident is that the "small wind" HAWT's spend a whole lot of time under repair. They may "work " but for how much of the time??
            It takes an engineer to own one unless he wants to spend a fortune on the maintenance. L.O.L.!!! Doesn't that mean you fellas should quit trying??? Isn't that a waste of time & money?? Aren't you apt to be an embarrassment to the wind power industry?? Hmmmm.

            You fellas crack me up with all of your fretting, L.O.L. Could it be that you're in fear that the Wind Tree could indeed be a success and upset your apple carts?? I've come to the belief that you fellas are simply biased and wondering how you can protect your domains. Everyone should show respect and accommodate you in that regard, right?? After all you're the "experts" therefore if you say it's "impossible" then it must be.

            ------- To avoid criticism one must say nothing, do nothing, be nothing -----

            Well, it won't be long now and we'll all find out if the Wind Tree is viable or simply a piece of junk. You already know who I'll be rooting for, L.O.L.

            Jim
            ( Aristotle )


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Hugh Piggott
            To: James Hanlon ; Hugh Piggott ; med Barnell
            Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroupscom
            Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2004 11:50 PM
            Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


            At 2:01 PM -0700 31/7/04, James Hanlon wrote:
            >Historical failures of any technology have many causes. Usually it's
            >the lack of financial ability to see the idea through to market.
            >That doesn't mean the ideas were "impossible". There were
            >undoubtedly many attempts at manned flight before the Wright
            >Brothers finally proved it was possible. Even so, their critics were
            >still claiming it to be "impossible" for the ensuing 5 years, L.O.L.
            >Tesla was ridiculed for his idea regarding A/C. It's always easier
            >to be a skeptic than keep an open mind. Nothing new there, L.O.L.

            As usual in the debate about vertical axis, I am characterised as
            having a closed mind. It is true that my personality is convergent.
            But I am open to considering any new ideas. I just have not heard
            any in this thread. Just the same old nonsense.

            Manned flight has some advantages. Vertical axis does not have any
            noticeable advantages. You can put it at ground level in a box if
            you like, but you won't catch much power! The power in the wind
            varies with the cube of the windspeed, and the wind is much stronger
            on top of a tower. So it would be like putting a solar panel in the
            shade or trying to drink from a puddle. Putting a vertical axis up
            on a tower where it can catch useful power is actually rather
            difficult because they are such an awkward shape.

            Talking about being interested in something new, why not have a look
            at http://www.ropatec.com/ At least these guys ave a new style of
            rotor. Let's see how much market they can catch.

            Why does nobody believe me when I say that there has been plenty of
            financial backing for VAWTs and plenty of testing and marketing done?
            A Canadian company was building them in large numbers (Flowind?) and
            there were all sorts of Cycloturbines etc... I also saw a
            straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s.

            It mostly took place a while ago, it is true, but still even now,
            everywhere I go I see evidence of VAWT activity going on, wasting
            people's time and money. I wonder if any lessons are being learned,
            or whether these are always guys who have just discovered this 'new'
            technology of the future?

            Here is a quote from a supporting message I got from a lurker on this list:

            At 3:16 PM -0700 28/7/04, Jim Nelson wrote:
            >
            >I live less than 10 miles away from NREL's Wind Testing Site on the
            >Rocky Flats area here.
            >I used to see various VAWTs as well as the HAWTs there. Most of the
            >verticals were not operating or had been torn up in the winds there.
            >The HAWTs had a few problems early on but always survived.
            >
            >Since that time, which was about 20 years ago, I have seen no VAWTs
            >there. Only HAWTs. They are positioned over a large area of the
            >former Nuclear trigger facility.
            > There are more going up for testing all the time. It seems that
            >they are never taken down as there are more every year. Thes range
            >in size from small 1kw units all the way up to the huge commercial
            >turbines. All VAWTS have been removed as far as I can see.

            I guess Rocky Flats have got closed minds too.

            oh well.

            --
            Hugh

            Scoraig Wind Electric
            http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/



            ---------------------------------
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            Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out!

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • med Barnell
            James Hanlon wrote: Hugh: I ve been on this forum for nearly two years now. What I ve learned in that time is the names of the experts you
            Message 5 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              James Hanlon <jhsolar@...> wrote: Hugh: I've been on this forum for nearly two years now. What I've learned in that time is the names of the "experts" you being recognized by your peers as one . Another thing that seems quite evident is that the "small wind" HAWT's spend a whole lot of time under repair. They may "work " but for how much of the time??
              It takes an engineer to own one unless he wants to spend a fortune on the maintenance. L.O.L.!!! Doesn't that mean you fellas should quit trying??? Isn't that a waste of time & money?? Aren't you apt to be an embarrassment to the wind power industry?? Hmmmm.

              You fellas crack me up with all of your fretting, L.O.L. Could it be that you're in fear that the Wind Tree could indeed be a success and upset your apple carts?? I've come to the belief that you fellas are simply biased and wondering how you can protect your domains. Everyone should show respect and accommodate you in that regard, right?? After all you're the "experts" therefore if you say it's "impossible" then it must be.

              ------- To avoid criticism one must say nothing, do nothing, be nothing -----

              Well, it won't be long now and we'll all find out if the Wind Tree is viable or simply a piece of junk. You already know who I'll be rooting for, L.O.L.

              Jim


              Like my first PC, the warranty specified cover for only 3 months on parts, 6 months service. But it forgot to add, 1 year replace!

              I got a 386 AMD DXL-40 I bought (for a price equivalent of two units now-a-days) based then on PC Mag raves/review.
              I spent my time knowing how to make windows3.1 work. I asked for an OS reinstal, it took them 2 weeks to "tune up." After getting used to its abnormal power-ups and downs, the hard drive made a clicking sound. I bought a PC Repair Manual Book. Having digested enough, I then get into the CMOS Setup. It could not detect the harddisk. Off again to service. After 3 weeks they replaced the harddisk. just before the sixth month. The monitor would not light up. But I heard the 8-beep sound. Presto its avideo. I did not wait for
              service. As I suspect they may just have to wait for the warranty to expire and charge me on same type. I canvassed in the mall and found the parts add up to a lot lower than a whole of branded ones.
              It was my first upgrade. Later, almost every month a new video speed card came about with flashing reviews rating. As I was deep into CAD and 3D rendering, clutter of used peripheral cards increased.

              I literally got schooled in the hard knocks into PC assembly. That on my part-time I assembled or upgraded then for a fee PCs for my friends. On BUDGET or for SPEED.

              Almost converted my startup office into a net cafe if I did not relocate and split with my inlaws who moved-in.

              But this alternative energy research am doing has taken up so much of my time and resources. I hate the way faceless people bark. I was used to an office environment that discussions were held openly almost getting personal but we all rejoice when a solution was successfully applied.

              Here it is like speaking your mind into corporate vultures, where better it is to keep your ideas to yourself. While keeping tab on the activities of the others just to keep abreast of news.

              I wonder why not enough informative messages posted. All I get is links to where I get sizeable leads on information and technology.

              While here you just express you ideas, hoping some "expert" will coach you, instead you receive "exclusive" rants, character assasination, labelling,
              bragging, and all one can do is fuel it further. L.O.L. (allow me to copy ur xpression.)

              I have exhausted almost 20 reams of copy paper just to read and digest.
              I have even downloaded johnson's Tesla and the PSI files (very nice and enlightening, it distinctly defined homosapiens from monkeys, the MIND I mean, L.O.L).


              WE can't express here formulae or processes.
              All we express here area ideas. do Math? as Dough once raged.
              I'll do math, I'll have books rather.
              I have downloaded almost all PDFs and Printed to PDF webpages pertaining to wind. Sourced from Denmark to UK, down to Australia, Hawaii, even China. All I got fromthe US' home pages are math. no categorically measured prescription
              for an outright solution, all we see are protected/patented ideas.
              Though whom we could have cultivated relational attachment and have business.

              No one understands the fact that not all propective clients are ignorant of their need. Who knows if there could have been a solution I could have gathered, present it to one client ( I have one, through a nephew of a Senator). They own island resorts. And the form of business is not a venture but a turn-key. It is not a production royalty.

              Yes true, an open mind is not being able to accept ideas and form his own mindset based on his factual stimuli. It also extends to being able to see the line of thinking of the author/speaker. Feel his struggle and effect a solution in the good samaritan norm.

              Yet, my mind is clearer now. This forum is not about sharing it is about protecting interests. And ensnaring deals. Maybe am wrong...

              However grateful I am that there remains some who helped me refine the concept am pursuing which I believe is the most suitable (NEED based) and adaptable means of harvesting energy from the wind. WIth all environmental conditions, hazards and life safety in place. Indeed it is possible.


              Be happy...PV is best if you have money.
              ROI is not an issue, endurance and optimally reliable service
              Tax money nil.


              MedB








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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Hugh Piggott
              ... You make a good point. Small wind is a very challenging and rather unsuccessful technology. That s one big reason why I try to steer people toward the
              Message 6 of 15 , Aug 1, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                >Hugh: I've been on this forum for nearly two years now. What I've
                >learned in that time is the names of the "experts" you being
                >recognized by your peers as one . Another thing that seems quite
                >evident is that the "small wind" HAWT's spend a whole lot of time
                >under repair. They may "work " but for how much of the time??

                You make a good point. Small wind is a very challenging and rather
                unsuccessful technology. That's one big reason why I try to steer
                people toward the stuff that works, and away from the stuff that has
                never yet worked but might, I suppose, if people could learn the
                lessons instead of repeating the mistakes.... maybe.

                >It takes an engineer to own one unless he wants to spend a fortune
                >on the maintenance. L.O.L.!!! Doesn't that mean you fellas should
                >quit trying??? Isn't that a waste of time & money?? Aren't you apt
                >to be an embarrassment to the wind power industry?? Hmmmm.

                Small wind is an embarrassment to the windpower industry, yes, but we
                should keep trying and also try to communicate with each other what
                works and what does not. I try to do this.

                >
                >You fellas crack me up with all of your fretting, L.O.L. Could it be
                >that you're in fear that the Wind Tree could indeed be a success and
                >upset your apple carts?? I've come to the belief that you fellas are
                >simply biased and wondering how you can protect your domains.
                >Everyone should show respect and accommodate you in that regard,
                >right?? After all you're the "experts" therefore if you say it's
                >"impossible" then it must be.

                Nothing to stop you proving us wrong. Just get on with it. This has
                taken a long time.

                --
                Hugh

                Scoraig Wind Electric
                http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/
              • Claus Nybroe
                ... straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s. Yes, I saw it, too. As a very young architect it fascinated me tremendoulsly, standing
                Message 7 of 15 , Aug 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  >>I also saw a
                  straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s.


                  Yes, I saw it, too. As a very young architect it fascinated me
                  tremendoulsly, standing there lonely among all the other HAWts.
                  Unfortunately it never worked properly, and the manufacturer, Mr
                  Bjerre, had to flee - Later, through violent California winds, I
                  also saw bunches of stopped Flowinds, felt like being on a
                  cementary.

                  To add some perspective into this, I'm a HAWT guy living from
                  large manufacturer projects through decades. Necessity turned me
                  into a HAWT guy. We had to come up with reliable products serving
                  customers and keeping bread on the table for employees. That
                  meant HAWTs. Ocationally VAWTs appeared as refreshing newcomers,
                  but unfortunately they so far never really made it .

                  However, my hart is totally with small mills, and I have joined
                  this list for 6-7 years now. So, I hope that some of you will
                  accept experience when claiming some pattern in the postings.

                  For instance strong critism has spread its hails in both camps.
                  Take a HAWT guy like Andy Kruse (Air, H40, Whisper etc). He has
                  been hit strongly on a regular basis all through the years. His
                  responses has been taking up the dialogue based on the practical
                  samples being criticized. I have also been criticizing him, but I
                  sure respect his constructive willingness to answer, and I think
                  most of us has learned a lot from this.

                  When hail falls in the VAWT-camp, it is quit another matter, well
                  illustrated by the latest responses from med Barnell and James
                  Hanlon. One claims that since you are not a professor you are not
                  welcome on this list, while the other in rather vulgar language
                  also ride on the expert thing while at the same claiming that the
                  the HAWT guys simply want to protect their territory, despite
                  their mills are shit anyway.

                  Why are the VAWT guys, in my opinion, so angry and emontinal in
                  their response?? For my part, I think that it is because they
                  have fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to promote
                  due to the lack of a variety of well documented samples. So, we
                  get looooong messages in a very general tone with little results
                  from practical experience. I must admit, I find them hard to
                  read - truely look forward to see the actual curves of the highly
                  beloved.

                  No need to get desperate. I wish everybody all the best of
                  constructive luck, whether they are doing it horizontally or
                  vertically.

                  best
                  claus

                  *
                  Claus Nybroe
                  Danish Windmiller
                  http://www.windmission.dk
                • James Hanlon
                  Claus: You missed your calling. You should have been a politician. You do a great job of twist what others say to suite your agenda. As an example: Just what
                  Message 8 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Claus: You missed your calling. You should have been a politician. You do a great job of twist what others say to suite your agenda. As an example: Just what language that I used was so " vulgar "?? . Is it because I made reference to the "experts" in the fashion that I did? WOW, how sensitive, L.O.L. Yes Claus , I"ll accept your years of experience as you put it and include you in the inventory of "experts", R.O.L.O.L.!! My "claims" as you put it were "questions" regarding possible motives. It seems that I truly struck a nerve, L.O.L. You also state that the VAWT guys are so "emotional and angry". Nothing like calling the pot kettle black. It looks like selective interpretation to me, L.O.L.

                    And "we've fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to promote". I can't see how that will be any problem at all should it prove to be for real. And don't fret even a little, I'll let you know either way. I have a gut feeling you'll not like the news, L.O.L. "despite their mills are shit anyway". How vulgar !!! But I'm still rooting for them and I'm also rooting for Med Barnell too.

                    Like I said before , you fellas really crack me up!!!, ROLOL!!

                    JamesHanlon
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Claus Nybroe<mailto:windmission@...>
                    To: Donald A Plisco<mailto:dplisco@...> ; med Barnell<mailto:waray002@...>
                    Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:14 AM
                    Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


                    >>I also saw a
                    straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s.


                    Yes, I saw it, too. As a very young architect it fascinated me
                    tremendoulsly, standing there lonely among all the other HAWts.
                    Unfortunately it never worked properly, and the manufacturer, Mr
                    Bjerre, had to flee - Later, through violent California winds, I
                    also saw bunches of stopped Flowinds, felt like being on a
                    cementary.

                    To add some perspective into this, I'm a HAWT guy living from
                    large manufacturer projects through decades. Necessity turned me
                    into a HAWT guy. We had to come up with reliable products serving
                    customers and keeping bread on the table for employees. That
                    meant HAWTs. Ocationally VAWTs appeared as refreshing newcomers,
                    but unfortunately they so far never really made it .

                    However, my hart is totally with small mills, and I have joined
                    this list for 6-7 years now. So, I hope that some of you will
                    accept experience when claiming some pattern in the postings.

                    For instance strong critism has spread its hails in both camps.
                    Take a HAWT guy like Andy Kruse (Air, H40, Whisper etc). He has
                    been hit strongly on a regular basis all through the years. His
                    responses has been taking up the dialogue based on the practical
                    samples being criticized. I have also been criticizing him, but I
                    sure respect his constructive willingness to answer, and I think
                    most of us has learned a lot from this.

                    When hail falls in the VAWT-camp, it is quit another matter, well
                    illustrated by the latest responses from med Barnell and James
                    Hanlon. One claims that since you are not a professor you are not
                    welcome on this list, while the other in rather vulgar language
                    also ride on the expert thing while at the same claiming that the
                    the HAWT guys simply want to protect their territory, despite
                    their mills are shit anyway.

                    Why are the VAWT guys, in my opinion, so angry and emontinal in
                    their response?? For my part, I think that it is because they
                    have fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to promote
                    due to the lack of a variety of well documented samples. So, we
                    get looooong messages in a very general tone with little results
                    from practical experience. I must admit, I find them hard to
                    read - truely look forward to see the actual curves of the highly
                    beloved.

                    No need to get desperate. I wish everybody all the best of
                    constructive luck, whether they are doing it horizontally or
                    vertically.

                    best
                    claus

                    *
                    Claus Nybroe
                    Danish Windmiller
                    http://www.windmission.dk<http://www.windmission.dk/>





                    ==========================================================
                    THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                    ----------------------------------------------------------
                    . Please feel free to send your input to:
                    awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>
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                    . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                    http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen> .
                    . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                    the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                    http://www.awea.org<http://www.awea.org/> . AWEA maintains the Home
                    Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                    those wishing to learn more about home energy
                    systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                    opinions or technical advice provided on the
                    list.
                    ----------------------------------------------------------
                    ical advice provided on the
                    list.
                    ----------------------------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Claus Nybroe
                    That is what I mean James. Quite rethoric answer, but with little technical stuf, which I know many list members want. In this respect, please let me
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That is what I mean James. Quite rethoric answer, but with little
                      technical stuf, which I know many list members want. In this
                      respect, please let me contribute with some photos of the
                      prototype work on my new little WING generator, can be used with
                      HAWT, VAWT and Hydro
                      http://www.windmission.dk/workshop/wing%20generators.htm

                      love
                      claus

                      *
                      Claus Nybroe
                      Danish Windmiller
                      http://www.windmission.dk






                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "James Hanlon" <jhsolar@...>
                      To: "Donald A Plisco" <dplisco@...>; "med Barnell"
                      <waray002@...>; "Claus Nybroe" <windmission@...>
                      Cc: <awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com>; <jhsolar@...>
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 12:43 PM
                      Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


                      Claus: You missed your calling. You should have been a
                      politician. You do a great job of twist what others say to suite
                      your agenda. As an example: Just what language that I used was so
                      " vulgar "?? . Is it because I made reference to the "experts" in
                      the fashion that I did? WOW, how sensitive, L.O.L. Yes Claus ,
                      I"ll accept your years of experience as you put it and include
                      you in the inventory of "experts", R.O.L.O.L.!! My "claims" as
                      you put it were "questions" regarding possible motives. It seems
                      that I truly struck a nerve, L.O.L. You also state that the VAWT
                      guys are so "emotional and angry". Nothing like calling the pot
                      kettle black. It looks like selective interpretation to me,
                      L.O.L.

                      And "we've fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to
                      promote". I can't see how that will be any problem at all should
                      it prove to be for real. And don't fret even a little, I'll let
                      you know either way. I have a gut feeling you'll not like the
                      news, L.O.L. "despite their mills are shit anyway". How vulgar
                      !!! But I'm still rooting for them and I'm also rooting for Med
                      Barnell too.

                      Like I said before , you fellas really crack me up!!!, ROLOL!!

                      JamesHanlon
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Claus Nybroe<mailto:windmission@...>
                      To: Donald A Plisco<mailto:dplisco@...> ; med
                      Barnell<mailto:waray002@...>
                      Cc:
                      awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com<mailto:awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.
                      com>
                      Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:14 AM
                      Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


                      >>I also saw a
                      straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s.


                      Yes, I saw it, too. As a very young architect it fascinated me
                      tremendoulsly, standing there lonely among all the other HAWts.
                      Unfortunately it never worked properly, and the manufacturer,
                      Mr
                      Bjerre, had to flee - Later, through violent California winds,
                      I
                      also saw bunches of stopped Flowinds, felt like being on a
                      cementary.

                      To add some perspective into this, I'm a HAWT guy living from
                      large manufacturer projects through decades. Necessity turned
                      me
                      into a HAWT guy. We had to come up with reliable products
                      serving
                      customers and keeping bread on the table for employees. That
                      meant HAWTs. Ocationally VAWTs appeared as refreshing
                      newcomers,
                      but unfortunately they so far never really made it .

                      However, my hart is totally with small mills, and I have joined
                      this list for 6-7 years now. So, I hope that some of you will
                      accept experience when claiming some pattern in the postings.

                      For instance strong critism has spread its hails in both camps.
                      Take a HAWT guy like Andy Kruse (Air, H40, Whisper etc). He has
                      been hit strongly on a regular basis all through the years. His
                      responses has been taking up the dialogue based on the
                      practical
                      samples being criticized. I have also been criticizing him, but
                      I
                      sure respect his constructive willingness to answer, and I
                      think
                      most of us has learned a lot from this.

                      When hail falls in the VAWT-camp, it is quit another matter,
                      well
                      illustrated by the latest responses from med Barnell and James
                      Hanlon. One claims that since you are not a professor you are
                      not
                      welcome on this list, while the other in rather vulgar language
                      also ride on the expert thing while at the same claiming that
                      the
                      the HAWT guys simply want to protect their territory, despite
                      their mills are shit anyway.

                      Why are the VAWT guys, in my opinion, so angry and emontinal in
                      their response?? For my part, I think that it is because they
                      have fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to
                      promote
                      due to the lack of a variety of well documented samples. So, we
                      get looooong messages in a very general tone with little
                      results
                      from practical experience. I must admit, I find them hard to
                      read - truely look forward to see the actual curves of the
                      highly
                      beloved.

                      No need to get desperate. I wish everybody all the best of
                      constructive luck, whether they are doing it horizontally or
                      vertically.

                      best
                      claus

                      *
                      Claus Nybroe
                      Danish Windmiller
                      http://www.windmission.dk<http://www.windmission.dk/>




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                      . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:

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                      (and read it on the Web), go to

                      http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home<http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home> .
                      . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at

                      http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen<http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen> .
                      . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                      the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                      http://www.awea.org<http://www.awea.org/> . AWEA maintains
                      the Home
                      Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                      those wishing to learn more about home energy
                      systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                      opinions or technical advice provided on the
                      list.
                      ----------------------------------------------------------
                      ical advice provided on the
                      list.
                      ----------------------------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links

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                    • Donald A Plisco
                      All the pompous posturing aside, fellows, we need new concrete and verifiable numbers, not wind blowing out both ends, to justify giving the vertical turbine a
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        All the pompous posturing aside, fellows, we need new concrete and verifiable numbers, not wind blowing out both ends, to justify giving the vertical turbine a second hard look.
                        Right now, the verticals have a fly in their soup...Verticals simply don't give much bang for the buck. Until a new radical vertical design comes along, or better legitimate figures, the ball is still in the horizontal's court. I'm open to that, if the proof comes along...
                        Proof is in the pudding....Let's see more proof and less blow.

                        Don in Tulsa


                        You know, there is an old saying: "Conservatives only believe the facts when they see them; Liberals only see the facts when they believe them."
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: James Hanlon
                        To: Donald A Plisco ; med Barnell ; Claus Nybroe
                        Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroups.com ; jhsolar@...
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 2004 5:43 AM
                        Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


                        Claus: You missed your calling. You should have been a politician. You do a great job of twist what others say to suite your agenda. As an example: Just what language that I used was so " vulgar "?? . Is it because I made reference to the "experts" in the fashion that I did? WOW, how sensitive, L.O.L. Yes Claus , I"ll accept your years of experience as you put it and include you in the inventory of "experts", R.O.L.O.L.!! My "claims" as you put it were "questions" regarding possible motives. It seems that I truly struck a nerve, L.O.L. You also state that the VAWT guys are so "emotional and angry". Nothing like calling the pot kettle black. It looks like selective interpretation to me, L.O.L.

                        And "we've fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to promote". I can't see how that will be any problem at all should it prove to be for real. And don't fret even a little, I'll let you know either way. I have a gut feeling you'll not like the news, L.O.L. "despite their mills are shit anyway". How vulgar !!! But I'm still rooting for them and I'm also rooting for Med Barnell too.

                        Like I said before , you fellas really crack me up!!!, ROLOL!!

                        JamesHanlon
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Claus Nybroe
                        To: Donald A Plisco ; med Barnell
                        Cc: awea-wind-home@yahoogroupscom
                        Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 9:14 AM
                        Subject: Re: [a-w-h] DARREIUS WHEEL MISUNDERSTOOD


                        >>I also saw a
                        straight-bladed darrieus at Riso in Denmark in the early 1980s.


                        Yes, I saw it, too. As a very young architect it fascinated me
                        tremendoulsly, standing there lonely among all the other HAWts.
                        Unfortunately it never worked properly, and the manufacturer, Mr
                        Bjerre, had to flee - Later, through violent California winds, I
                        also saw bunches of stopped Flowinds, felt like being on a
                        cementary.

                        To add some perspective into this, I'm a HAWT guy living from
                        large manufacturer projects through decades. Necessity turned me
                        into a HAWT guy. We had to come up with reliable products serving
                        customers and keeping bread on the table for employees. That
                        meant HAWTs. Ocationally VAWTs appeared as refreshing newcomers,
                        but unfortunately they so far never really made it .

                        However, my hart is totally with small mills, and I have joined
                        this list for 6-7 years now. So, I hope that some of you will
                        accept experience when claiming some pattern in the postings.

                        For instance strong critism has spread its hails in both camps.
                        Take a HAWT guy like Andy Kruse (Air, H40, Whisper etc). He has
                        been hit strongly on a regular basis all through the years. His
                        responses has been taking up the dialogue based on the practical
                        samples being criticized. I have also been criticizing him, but I
                        sure respect his constructive willingness to answer, and I think
                        most of us has learned a lot from this.

                        When hail falls in the VAWT-camp, it is quit another matter, well
                        illustrated by the latest responses from med Barnell and James
                        Hanlon. One claims that since you are not a professor you are not
                        welcome on this list, while the other in rather vulgar language
                        also ride on the expert thing while at the same claiming that the
                        the HAWT guys simply want to protect their territory, despite
                        their mills are shit anyway.

                        Why are the VAWT guys, in my opinion, so angry and emontinal in
                        their response?? For my part, I think that it is because they
                        have fallen in love with a case being relatively hard to promote
                        due to the lack of a variety of well documented samples. So, we
                        get looooong messages in a very general tone with little results
                        from practical experience. I must admit, I find them hard to
                        read - truely look forward to see the actual curves of the highly
                        beloved.

                        No need to get desperate. I wish everybody all the best of
                        constructive luck, whether they are doing it horizontally or
                        vertically.

                        best
                        claus

                        *
                        Claus Nybroe
                        Danish Windmiller
                        http://www.windmission.dk





                        ==========================================================
                        THANK YOU FOR PARTICIPATING IN THE HOME ENERGY LIST.
                        ----------------------------------------------------------
                        . Please feel free to send your input to:
                        awea-wind-home@yahoogroupscom
                        . Join the list by sending a blank e-mail to:
                        awea-wind-home-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        .. To view previous messages from the list,
                        subscribe to a daily digest of the list,
                        or stop receiving the list by e-mail
                        (and read it on the Web), go to
                        http://www.yahoogroups.com/list/awea-wind-home .
                        . An FAQ on small wind systems is located at
                        http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen .
                        . This e-mail discussion list is managed by
                        the American Wind Energy Association (AWEA):
                        http://www.awea.org . AWEA maintains the Home
                        Energy list as an "open discussion space" for
                        those wishing to learn more about home energy
                        systems, and takes no responsibility for the
                        opinions or technical advice provided on the
                        list.
                        ----------------------------------------------------------
                        ical advice provided on the
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                      • Michael Klemen
                        Hi Jim, ... Hmmm. Interesting. There are some makes and models that don t do as well as others. I haven t had a structural failure on the Proven WT2500
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 3, 2004
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                          Hi Jim,

                          > Another thing that seems quite evident is that the
                          > "small wind" HAWT's spend a whole lot of time under
                          > repair.

                          Hmmm. Interesting. There are some makes and models
                          that don't do as well as others. I haven't had a structural
                          failure on the Proven WT2500 since I've put it in the air
                          (but it hasn't given me 2500 watts, either). I haven't
                          had any major issues with the Bergey XL.1 since I've flown
                          that. And for the AWP3.6, I've replaced the blades, and
                          those were covered under warranty. Life has been good in
                          my small wind turbine world for a while with these machines.

                          > They may "work " but for how much of the time??

                          When designed right, as Hugh tries to do, they can work
                          for a long time. People who try to make them and don't
                          bother to learn from others reinvent the wheel.

                          >It takes an engineer to own one

                          I don't know about that.

                          > unless he wants to spend a fortune on the maintenance.

                          I'm not sure that's necessary.

                          > L.O.L.!!!

                          I don't understand what you're laughing about. EcoQuest
                          isn't even advertising the WindTree anymore on their
                          web site. LOL!!!

                          > Doesn't that mean you fellas should quit trying???

                          Absolutely not.

                          > Isn't that a waste of time & money??

                          No.

                          > Aren't you apt to be an embarrassment to the wind power
                          > industry??

                          It would be nice if every HAWT would survive a good wind
                          site. If the HAWTs can't make it and they attempt overspeed
                          protection, what will a VAWT do?

                          You don't seem to realize the difference between small turbine
                          technology and big turbine technology, either.

                          Big wind turbines can spend tens of thousands of dollars on
                          failsafe overspeed controls. Small turbines cost thousands
                          of dollars, so the same mechanisms don't exist to protect
                          the small turbine that exist to protect the large turbine.
                          The more I work with these things, the more awed I am that
                          any small turbine manufacturer can get this right.

                          >You fellas crack me up with all of your fretting, L.O.L.

                          Who is fretting?

                          > Could it be that you're in fear that the Wind Tree could
                          > indeed be a success and upset your apple carts??

                          Fear? Hardly. Show us a product that works. In fact, send
                          me one. We'll see if it can work. It was last advertised
                          to be capable of the impossible. Now it isn't even
                          advertised!!! LOL!!!

                          > I've come to the belief that you fellas are simply biased

                          I'm not biased. I want energy from the wind, and that's
                          what everybody wants. HAWT products are availble. Some
                          work better than others in a decent wind regime. The
                          only VAWT products I've heard about are prototypes, and
                          the manufacturers of those want you to BUY a prototype.
                          That's not even funny. I would never buy a prototype,
                          nor should any potential customer. That should be an
                          R&D expense for the company.

                          >and wondering how you can protect your domains.

                          I don't have any domain. Show me a product that works.
                          Period. That's all anybody is asking for.

                          >Well, it won't be long now and we'll all find out if the
                          >Wind Tree is viable or simply a piece of junk.

                          Well, it had been advertised as an upcoming product at
                          the EcoQuest web site for quite a few years. It was
                          supposed to be out 2 years ago. It is now presently in
                          NONE of the marketing on the EcoQuest web site. It appears
                          somebody has figured out that it cannot do what they
                          were claiming it could do. Who has the last laugh?

                          Sincerely,
                          Mike Klemen
                          http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/ndsu/klemen
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