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Re: The Buck Stops Here

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  • naboth675
    Well said Ken. Nick is talking utter ********! regards...naboth675 ... NZ ... have ... to ... been ... woe ... judgment ... in ... for ... take ... in ... is
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 1, 2009
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      Well said Ken. Nick is talking utter ********!

      regards...naboth675


      --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > Nick said:
      >
      > [I am not dissing the good Vicary has done, but the job seems to be
      > half completed. I mean Australia was almost the in the bad way the
      NZ
      > church went for a while, so any change would have been good, and I
      > think Vicary did a great job in many parts BUT and this seems to be
      > the point missed, the Aussie churches are hurting, I have received
      > emails from people saying that the PH has changed and agreeing with
      > what I have said on forumsau and other pastors, my own and yours,
      have
      > agreed.]
      >
      >
      > I am a Yank. I am originally from New York City. I am a Yankee
      > Doodle Dandy. So, I am familiar with phrases that originate with the
      > good old U.S.A. One of those phrases is, The Buck Stops Here. The
      > phrase originated with President Harry Truman. The term "pass the
      > buck," was meant to say that someone was passing on responsibility
      to
      > someone else for whatever was going wrong. When Truman became
      > President of the United States, he put a sign on his desk, "The Buck
      > Stops Here." In other words, he was taking responsibility for any
      > problems the country had. Refreshing!
      >
      > Nick points to David Vicary as the source of problems in the
      > Australian branch of Wayman's World. He notes that if Vicary had
      been
      > doing HIS job, then these problems wouldn't exist. As "leader" of
      > this branch of Waymanland, Nick pinpoints Vicary as the source of
      woe
      > and dismay in the holy "move of God," which is Wayman, Inc. Nick
      > laments that "Wendy's for God" has become too much like "Burger King
      > for the Devil." Nick sees "clearly" that the problem lies with the
      > leadership of David Vicary. So, naturally, Nick supports the
      judgment
      > and removal of Vicary de Satan from leadership. Not that Nick thinks
      > he is all bad. But Dave must go, that Wayman may be free to appoint
      > the "real" leader of the Australian branch of Wayman's World. Who
      > would dare disagree?
      >
      > OK. If Nick says that the Australian fellowship of Waymanchrist is
      in
      > disarray because of the faulty leadership of David Vicary, then we
      > really must apply that same standard to Wayman O. Christ himself.
      > Just to be fair. Who has been pastor of the Perth church, and leader
      > of the Australian fellowship of Wayman O.? Whoever Wayman appointed.
      > So, where does the buck stop? I, as a Yank, want to know. Since
      > Wayman O. has appointed the leaders of the Australian "fellowship,"
      > where does the buck stop? Wayman O. appointed the following: Ron
      > Burrell, removed for repeatedly adultery. Greg Johnson, whom Wayman
      > has called the worst of names, and who has rejoined Foursquare. Mike
      > Mastin, married to Waymanchrist's daughter, whom Wayman gave a
      > settlement to leave the fellowship forever. And, of course, David
      > Vicary, who was supposed to bring a real "indigenous" quality to the
      > Australian fellowship, has been "judged" by Waymanchrist as unfit
      for
      > duty. So where does the buck stop? At David Vicary? Hmmm
      >
      > Wayman's track record for appointed leaders is pathetic. No, it is
      > not "All of Asia has forsaken me," it is the repeated failure of
      > Wayman O. to appoint leaders who will "remain." Imagine the Apostle
      > Paul saying to Titus and Timothy, "Look, those leaders I appointed
      > about 8 years ago, they are getting, well, funky. They no longer
      take
      > my word as the Word of God, and I need them ousted. Put Tilli in
      > charge. At least he has his fresh lip prints on my ass. I just don't
      > know. What's it going to take? Call my son and tell him to threaten
      > anyone who disagrees with the removal of these guys..."
      >
      > Nick's attempt to make Vicary responsible for the lack of "revival"
      in
      > the Australian churches of Waymanland is misplaced. If Waymanchrist
      > is the leader of the fellowship, then the buck should stop with
      > Wayman. Who appointed David Vicary Lord of Australia? Why, it was
      > Wayman! So every accusation that Nick makes against Vicary should go
      > to the desk of Wayman O. Christ.
      >
      > Wayman removed Vicary. Who can remove Wayman? It might seem like the
      > answer is, "No one." However, there are people who can remove Wayman
      > O. Christ from the position of power that he has given himself. It
      is
      > the people in those "churches." Rise up and LEAVE! If enough of you
      > do it, then that will be the end of the horrid destruction that this
      > man continually brings on so many people. And if you are the only
      one
      > who leaves, at least it will end his destruction on your life.
      >
      > The Buck Stops Here.
      >
      > Ken
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Escape_from_the_Fellowship/
      > <../../../../../Escape_from_the_Fellowship/>
      >
    • redhotcfmpepper
      ... It is unbelievable, but I actually agree with Mr. Haining on this one. Today I was reading Acts 4:21. So when they had further threatened them, they let
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 5, 2009
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        --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, kenhaining777
        <no_reply@...> wrote:

        > Wayman removed Vicary. Who can remove Wayman? It might seem like the
        > answer is, "No one." However, there are people who can remove Wayman
        > O. Christ from the position of power that he has given himself. It is
        > the people in those "churches." Rise up and LEAVE! If enough of you
        > do it, then that will be the end of the horrid destruction that this
        > man continually brings on so many people. And if you are the only one
        > who leaves, at least it will end his destruction on your life.
        >
        > The Buck Stops Here.
        >
        > Ken
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Escape_from_the_Fellowship/
        > <../../../../../Escape_from_the_Fellowship/>


        It is unbelievable, but I actually agree with Mr. Haining on this one.
        Today I was reading Acts 4:21. So when they had further threatened
        them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them,
        because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was done.

        "Because of the people", that sentence stood out to me. And together
        with what Mr. Haining wrote it is clear that this is guided by God.
        Let no man, and especially no woman (but that should be obvious, see
        bible texts and the which is also explained ad nausea by the anointed
        apostle of the faith W. O. Mitchell) say otherwise or the wrath of God
        will be on him or her. Yes, I love people. The pharisees did mind what
        the people said in a big way. The same also happened many times in the
        live of Jesus Christ when they wanted Him dead.

        In the CFM and shortly after I left, I noticed the similarities
        between my pastor and the pharisees. Everybody has his own reasons for
        leaving, these were some of mine. The most important was that I was
        wasted and had no more money left. So the reasoning was that I was
        useless for the organization, and could as well leave. This may seem
        daft now but not at the time. It also shows that you know in your
        heart what your brain is afraid to think and your mouth dare not to
        speak, what the CFM really stands for. If only the members of the CFM
        stood up and listened to their heart instead of going the safer but in
        the end more destructive way of conformity to what is essentially
        cultic behavior.

        Jesus withstood his mother once. Was He immediately a rebel because He
        did not honor her it seemed? No, not according to the bible, He
        wasn't. Was Paul in rebellion when he spoke out against Peter? You can
        answer that yourself if you were or are a member of the CFM.
        Furthermore there is David and Saul, and not to forget the prophets of
        old of which most died because they had the insolence to speak out
        against their by God appointed superiors. Lets not forget Cromwell and
        his king, the Americans and British just to name some more recent
        events. The bible can play some nasty tricks on the mind in the hands
        of the evil and the ignorant. In WW2 some Dutch churches preached that
        because Germany was ruling our country, we had to obey them. Luckily
        Corrie the Boom did think otherwise and saved many Jews. She paid for
        it alright, her sister died in a concentration camp and she barely
        escaped the same fate.

        Isn't it ridiculous that people that have sometimes been faithful for
        many years in the CFM and tithed till it hurt, simply can be removed
        out of this "church". Yes, even out of gatherings with the whole
        congregation watching. Without a soul asking questions to why this was
        done? Nobody does a thing. No wonder CFM pastors are so bloated, they
        get away with everything. Now when everybody dares to withstand the
        pastor, you'll be surprised how reasonably he can be all of a sudden
        like the pharisee he really is. Power to the people.

        Greetings.

        Yes, I have written another inspired post. Surely, all who read it
        will weep and repent in a big way. It is just like in the Christian
        Fellowship Ministries led by Mitchell: revival is just around the corner.
      • naboth675
        Another thing to add to that. A person is not being rebellious or unsubmitted because they leave. The headship doctrine is unbiblical and cultic. It is based
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 6, 2009
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          Another thing to add to that. A person is not being rebellious or
          unsubmitted because they leave. The headship doctrine is unbiblical
          and cultic. It is based on a misinterpretation of scripture.
          You want to leave?
          You CAN leave.
          So leave and never look back!

          I did several years ago and I am so much better off.
          I am better off financially.
          I have better and more friendships.
          I am better off mentally.
          I am better of spiritually.
          I am happier.

          Leaving is one of the best things I ever did even thought at the time
          it seemed so daunting. You CAN leave and you have EVERY RIGHT to
          leave. So if you are still in the feollowship leave and NEVER look
          back! It's the best decision you could make.

          God bless you...naboth675




          --- In
          slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "redhotcfmpepper"
          <redhotcfmpepper@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com,
          kenhaining777
          > <no_reply@> wrote:
          >
          > > Wayman removed Vicary. Who can remove Wayman? It might seem like
          the
          > > answer is, "No one." However, there are people who can remove
          Wayman
          > > O. Christ from the position of power that he has given himself.
          It is
          > > the people in those "churches." Rise up and LEAVE! If enough of
          you
          > > do it, then that will be the end of the horrid destruction that
          this
          > > man continually brings on so many people. And if you are the only
          one
          > > who leaves, at least it will end his destruction on your life.
          > >
          > > The Buck Stops Here.
          > >
          > > Ken
          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Escape_from_the_Fellowship/
          > > <../../../../../Escape_from_the_Fellowship/>
          >
          >
          > It is unbelievable, but I actually agree with Mr. Haining on this
          one.
          > Today I was reading Acts 4:21. So when they had further threatened
          > them, they let them go, finding nothing how they might punish them,
          > because of the people: for all men glorified God for that which was
          done.
          >
          > "Because of the people", that sentence stood out to me. And together
          > with what Mr. Haining wrote it is clear that this is guided by God.
          > Let no man, and especially no woman (but that should be obvious, see
          > bible texts and the which is also explained ad nausea by the
          anointed
          > apostle of the faith W. O. Mitchell) say otherwise or the wrath of
          God
          > will be on him or her. Yes, I love people. The pharisees did mind
          what
          > the people said in a big way. The same also happened many times in
          the
          > live of Jesus Christ when they wanted Him dead.
          >
          > In the CFM and shortly after I left, I noticed the similarities
          > between my pastor and the pharisees. Everybody has his own reasons
          for
          > leaving, these were some of mine. The most important was that I was
          > wasted and had no more money left. So the reasoning was that I was
          > useless for the organization, and could as well leave. This may seem
          > daft now but not at the time. It also shows that you know in your
          > heart what your brain is afraid to think and your mouth dare not to
          > speak, what the CFM really stands for. If only the members of the
          CFM
          > stood up and listened to their heart instead of going the safer but
          in
          > the end more destructive way of conformity to what is essentially
          > cultic behavior.
          >
          > Jesus withstood his mother once. Was He immediately a rebel because
          He
          > did not honor her it seemed? No, not according to the bible, He
          > wasn't. Was Paul in rebellion when he spoke out against Peter? You
          can
          > answer that yourself if you were or are a member of the CFM.
          > Furthermore there is David and Saul, and not to forget the prophets
          of
          > old of which most died because they had the insolence to speak out
          > against their by God appointed superiors. Lets not forget Cromwell
          and
          > his king, the Americans and British just to name some more recent
          > events. The bible can play some nasty tricks on the mind in the
          hands
          > of the evil and the ignorant. In WW2 some Dutch churches preached
          that
          > because Germany was ruling our country, we had to obey them.
          Luckily
          > Corrie the Boom did think otherwise and saved many Jews. She paid
          for
          > it alright, her sister died in a concentration camp and she barely
          > escaped the same fate.
          >
          > Isn't it ridiculous that people that have sometimes been faithful
          for
          > many years in the CFM and tithed till it hurt, simply can be
          removed
          > out of this "church". Yes, even out of gatherings with the whole
          > congregation watching. Without a soul asking questions to why this
          was
          > done? Nobody does a thing. No wonder CFM pastors are so bloated,
          they
          > get away with everything. Now when everybody dares to withstand the
          > pastor, you'll be surprised how reasonably he can be all of a sudden
          > like the pharisee he really is. Power to the people.
          >
          > Greetings.
          >
          > Yes, I have written another inspired post. Surely, all who read it
          > will weep and repent in a big way. It is just like in the Christian
          > Fellowship Ministries led by Mitchell: revival is just around the
          corner.
          >
        • redhotcfmpepper
          Your answer concerning leaving the Door indicates that it is not as simple as the Pottershouse ( or the Door) claims it to be.The saying you are not chained to
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 7, 2009
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            Your answer concerning leaving the Door indicates that it is not as
            simple as the Pottershouse ( or the Door) claims it to be.The saying
            you are not chained to your chairs, is just a poor excuse for not
            being accountable for holding people hostage, the which is illegal and
            if proven, is effectively the end of the Door. But cults seem to get
            away with a lot, it seems. This is not a small thing, it is that
            serious. So they have to hide this very fact for the outside world.
            The truth is when on-fire disciples are made to believe that leaving
            the CFM is at least stepping out of the plan of God for your live, and
            in all instances they have witnessed, they say, will end in
            backsliding and much physical and spiritual harm. The result is in my
            opinion the same as to tie someone to a chair. Highly illegal. The
            same goes for tithing. There is so much pressure to give because souls
            are at stake and people who don't tithe are robbing God. It is
            essentially stealing.

            If people want to be a member of the Christian Fellowship Ministries
            out of their own free will, that is their own choice. That I can't
            object. What I do mind is the lies and the false teachings that hold
            them hostage and robs them. They seem to have slackened their hold on
            the reigns, or is it that they are more careful so they don't lose to
            many people because of what they read on the Internet? Just enough to
            give the idea of being free, but really are not? But tight enough to
            keep them in bondage.

            Hello to you Naboth675. How are you doing? Still a rebel? You still
            can return to the greatest move of god on this earth and listen to the
            blessed messages of your by god appointed leadership. You will be
            accepted back among the chosen few in love in theory, but looked down
            upon and avoided in practice. Isn't that what the CFM really stands
            for. It sounds and looks sooo great, but it really isn't.

            Greetings.



            --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "naboth675"
            <naboth675@...> wrote:
            >
            > Another thing to add to that. A person is not being rebellious or
            > unsubmitted because they leave. The headship doctrine is unbiblical
            > and cultic. It is based on a misinterpretation of scripture.
            > You want to leave?
            > You CAN leave.
            > So leave and never look back!
            >
            > I did several years ago and I am so much better off.
            > I am better off financially.
            > I have better and more friendships.
            > I am better off mentally.
            > I am better of spiritually.
            > I am happier.
            >
            > Leaving is one of the best things I ever did even thought at the time
            > it seemed so daunting. You CAN leave and you have EVERY RIGHT to
            > leave. So if you are still in the feollowship leave and NEVER look
            > back! It's the best decision you could make.
            >
            > God bless you...naboth675
            >
          • naboth675
            Hello redhotcfmpepper! Good to hear from you again. Yes I am still a rebel but I am submitted in the truest sense of the word. My rebellion against the
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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              Hello redhotcfmpepper! Good to hear from you again. Yes I am still a rebel but I am submitted in the truest sense of the word. My 'rebellion' against the Potters House is an expresion of my submission to Jesus. Rebellion against tyrany is faithfulness to liberty.

              I agree with what you said. It IS a form of enslavement. It is unreasonable, it is immoral, it is unjust  but most importantly, it is all in the past. The present is very sweet.

              Do you think Vicary will change much now he's out? How bad to you think the exodus will get for Perth. Poor old Mitch. LOL It couldn't have happened to a more appropriate person. I hope that wicked man loses Prescott too while his back is turned.

              regards...naboth675 


              --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "redhotcfmpepper" <redhotcfmpepper@...> wrote:
              >
              > Your answer concerning leaving the Door indicates that it is not as
              > simple as the Pottershouse ( or the Door) claims it to be.The saying
              > you are not chained to your chairs, is just a poor excuse for not
              > being accountable for holding people hostage, the which is illegal and
              > if proven, is effectively the end of the Door. But cults seem to get
              > away with a lot, it seems. This is not a small thing, it is that
              > serious. So they have to hide this very fact for the outside world.
              > The truth is when on-fire disciples are made to believe that leaving
              > the CFM is at least stepping out of the plan of God for your live, and
              > in all instances they have witnessed, they say, will end in
              > backsliding and much physical and spiritual harm. The result is in my
              > opinion the same as to tie someone to a chair. Highly illegal. The
              > same goes for tithing. There is so much pressure to give because souls
              > are at stake and people who don't tithe are robbing God. It is
              > essentially stealing.
              >
              > If people want to be a member of the Christian Fellowship Ministries
              > out of their own free will, that is their own choice. That I can't
              > object. What I do mind is the lies and the false teachings that hold
              > them hostage and robs them. They seem to have slackened their hold on
              > the reigns, or is it that they are more careful so they don't lose to
              > many people because of what they read on the Internet? Just enough to
              > give the idea of being free, but really are not? But tight enough to
              > keep them in bondage.
              >
              > Hello to you Naboth675. How are you doing? Still a rebel? You still
              > can return to the greatest move of god on this earth and listen to the
              > blessed messages of your by god appointed leadership. You will be
              > accepted back among the chosen few in love in theory, but looked down
              > upon and avoided in practice. Isn't that what the CFM really stands
              > for. It sounds and looks sooo great, but it really isn't.
              >
              > Greetings.
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "naboth675"
              > naboth675@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Another thing to add to that. A person is not being rebellious or
              > > unsubmitted because they leave. The headship doctrine is unbiblical
              > > and cultic. It is based on a misinterpretation of scripture.
              > > You want to leave?
              > > You CAN leave.
              > > So leave and never look back!
              > >
              > > I did several years ago and I am so much better off.
              > > I am better off financially.
              > > I have better and more friendships.
              > > I am better off mentally.
              > > I am better of spiritually.
              > > I am happier.
              > >
              > > Leaving is one of the best things I ever did even thought at the time
              > > it seemed so daunting. You CAN leave and you have EVERY RIGHT to
              > > leave. So if you are still in the feollowship leave and NEVER look
              > > back! It's the best decision you could make.
              > >
              > > God bless you...naboth675
              > >
              >

            • redhotcfmpepper
              ... In theory it is possible that Vicary will change much. But according to others many pastors who have left the fellowship and who are still pastoring are
              Message 6 of 9 , Feb 10, 2009
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                --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "naboth675"
                <naboth675@...> wrote:

                > Do you think Vicary will change much now he's out? How bad to you think
                > the exodus will get for Perth. Poor old Mitch. LOL It couldn't have
                > happened to a more appropriate person. I hope that wicked man loses
                > Prescott too while his back is turned.
                >
                > regards...naboth675
                >


                In theory it is possible that Vicary will change much. But according
                to others many pastors who have left the fellowship and who are still
                pastoring are not that different now as they were before. One can only
                hope it will happen, but that sounds so passive. Better is, one can
                make sure it will happen. For instance by applying the normal rules
                that are used by other churches and which are biblical. And by healthy
                Christian preaching, aimed at setting people free instead of enslaving
                them in the CFM. But that is up to the present members of Vicary's
                church. The first thing that comes to mind is to let the finances of
                the church be handled by someone different then the pastor.

                If I remember correctly Ken Haining was of the opinion that it was
                best to dismantle the church and let everyone go his own merry way to
                save everybody from a lot of harm. That could be to another church or
                no church at all. Vicary opened a church not far away from his old
                church. Is he brave or a fool? In any case it is a challenge for
                Wayman O. Mitchell. Much more so then if Vicary's new church was on
                the other side of town. Will Mitchell react accordingly or is he too
                old for that? If he accepts the challenge, more people will get hurt.
                But that seems not to be an issue. So much love there, it is painful
                to watch.

                Quite frankly, I don't know what is best. Something to ponder about I
                guess, the which I like very much. Theory has to be practised and then
                it is often a whole different ballgame. But you have to start
                somewhere. The important thing is that the people who have left the
                Perth church are now free from the Pottershouse, and if they are wise
                they will stay that way and not again be enslaved by another cultic
                religion. That could be the first hurdle, to come to the realisation
                that the CFM is a cult. And that is devastating, as I experienced
                first hand. Till a few years ago I considered them as doing God's
                will, because they preached the gospel. Although they had some very
                serious issues though.

                About Mitchell. I did not understand why my pastor adored him that
                much. My feelings about this man were not likewise. To me he was a
                stranger I did not trust. One time after one of his sermons I went to
                the altar ( hope that is the right expression) to pray and be
                delivered. I felt bad after that, as if I had done something wrong.

                It is a pity that the first slamthedoor site is not available anymore.
                There were some very good posts about grace. And how the Pottershouse
                had fallen away from grace like the Galatians. They try to maintain
                their salvation by performing works like tithing, preaching, not to
                miss church and all the rest. Nothing wrong with these but those
                should however be the result of your salvation not the way to keep it.
                But Mrs Slam is much more able to explain this then I am.

                Galatians 5:4
                New American Standard Bible (©1995)
                You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified
                by law; you have fallen from grace.

                King James Bible
                Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified
                by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

                American King James Version
                Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by
                the law; you are fallen from grace.

                American Standard Version
                Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are
                fallen away from grace.

                Douay-Rheims Bible
                You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are
                fallen from grace.

                Darby Bible Translation
                Ye are deprived of all profit from the Christ as separated from him,
                as many as are justified by law; ye have fallen from grace.

                English Revised Version
                Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye
                are fallen away from grace.

                Webster's Bible Translation
                Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by
                the law; ye have fallen from grace.

                World English Bible
                You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the
                law. You have fallen away from grace.

                Young's Literal Translation
                ye were freed from the Christ, ye who in law are declared righteous;
                from the grace ye fell away;


                Greetings.
              • redhotcfmpepper
                ... Hello to you too Naboth67. What are your thoughts about Vicary? Do you think he will change, or just continue in the same way? And more importantly what do
                Message 7 of 9 , Feb 11, 2009
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                  --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "naboth675"
                  <naboth675@...> wrote:

                  > Do you think Vicary will change much now he's out? How bad to you think
                  > the exodus will get for Perth. Poor old Mitch. LOL It couldn't have
                  > happened to a more appropriate person. I hope that wicked man loses
                  > Prescott too while his back is turned.
                  >
                  > regards...naboth675


                  Hello to you too Naboth67. What are your thoughts about Vicary? Do you
                  think he will change, or just continue in the same way? And more
                  importantly what do you think about the exodus and its implications to
                  the ordinary members of the Perth church and maybe to the rest of the
                  churches in Australia? Will Mitchell get away with it yet another
                  time? Or is this the beginning of the end, hopefully worldwide? Amaze
                  and enlighten us with your wisdom. In all humbleness and in a gentle
                  spirit of course.

                  Its great to hear you're doing just fine. It seems that God can even
                  work outside the covering of the Pottershouse.


                  Greetings.
                • naboth675
                  ... I m glad he has found his way out. Not least because it gives many others a reason to leave and wakes people up to reality about this fellowship. Vicary
                  Message 8 of 9 , Feb 14, 2009
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                    --- In slamthedoor_on_the_pottershouse@yahoogroups.com, "redhotcfmpepper" <redhotcfmpepper@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello to you too Naboth67. What are your thoughts about Vicary? Do you
                    > think he will change, or just continue in the same way?

                    I'm glad he has found his way out. Not least because it gives many others a reason to leave and wakes people up to reality about this fellowship. Vicary was the U.K fellowship head back in the nineties. I liked him at the time. Some of his sermons were decent. {mind you I was a fellowship hardliner at the time and in awe of anything from Walthamstow}. I have a report from someone in the Bury st Edmunds church which he astored before taking over on W'stow in 94 and Vicary was pretty brutal back then. It would seem he has calmed down a bit since. I still think he was part of the problem though. I mean we can't just keep blaming Beyerman for the extremist attitude of the pioneer pastors and disciples from Walthamstow. That's going back 15 years now. As for him changing I think that won't hapen overnight if at all. You may see minor changes but then again who can tell whether this situation will cause him to rethink a lot of stuff. Perhaps it would have been better to take some serious time out of ministry first. That would have given him the time to re-evaluate. Then again if he wanted to take part of the erth church with him that might not have been so easily possible if he didn't strike while the iron was hot. I hope he does change though and I'd encourage every christian reading here to pray for him as well as the people in the Aussie churches.

                    And more
                    > importantly what do you think about the exodus and its implications to
                    > the ordinary members of the Perth church and maybe to the rest of the
                    > churches in Australia?

                    That's where my central concern lies. Despite the many who have left there will be many more who stay and sadly will become even more hardline. I think it is a reaction based on fear and insecurity. I liken it to the workhorse in George Orwell's 'animal farm'. When the communist leadership was doubted in any way he would respond by working even harder. That was his answer for everything. Eventually he worked himself  to death. I think we will see some who become more radicalised as a result of this with the result that more are hurt by this organisation. At least more may leave which is a consolation. Who knows who Mitchell puts in his place. Tilli? That would be the best thing next to a guarantee that more will leave from what I've heard. Having said that, although I want to see people get out of that organisation and though I recognise that events such as what we have recently seen hasten the departure of many I know that there is much fallout in the lives of congregants from this and that's why these splits are always tinged with sadness for me. Not that I care much for the organisation or some misguided desire for peole to stay but rather a aadness in knowing a lot of people get hurt in all this and many may leave the faith altogether. Men like Mitchell have a lot to answer for.  

                    Will Mitchell get away with it yet another
                    > time? Or is this the beginning of the end, hopefully worldwide?

                    The old man has got away with it so many time that many of us barely dare bet against him but remember that even the most successful lose eventually. Both Napolean and Hitler found that out when their forces froze on the battlefield as they attempted to take Russia. I think Mitch has overreached himself this time. The Aussie fellowship is the jewel in the foreign missions crown. If this goes badly wrong for him their reputation for being a worldwide movement will be hit hard. {I have no doubt that this news will have greatly shaken pastors in the U.K}. As far as I'm concerned Mitchell didn't even have to move against Vicary. While Ken portrays him as a cynical and cold hearted master of control {which I agree with greatly} I also think Mitchell is a paranoid control freak who is losing touch with reality. He has become more and more convinced of his own infallability and surrounds himself with men who say what he wants them to say. This will {and I believe already is} coming back to haunt him. Mitchell's roblem is that although at heart he is a natural dictator he has no gus, no bombs, no absolute power to weild over the helpless masses. Stalin, for examle, always had the option of a bloody pogrom or massacre when the people didn't go along with everything he said. Mitchell's arsenal of weapons is more limited. Also I think that Mitch is in a rather different osition than he is used to. Usually he sends someone in to split a rebel church. Now there is a rebellion against his church and people {and pastors} are leaving him. Seems to me that had Vicary tried to take the Perth church out of the fellowship he would have been destroyed but now he leaves and then sets up another church {setting up a rival church is usually Mitchells tactic}. This could cause more and more damage for Mitchell. Remember Vicary is no poor man either. He has his own personal fortune to back him up. If the numbers are down he can still bankroll several churches for some time. He can hold out against successful legal action. While I'm not a big fan of Vicary I hope he proves to be the undoing of Mitchell.    

                    Amaze
                    > and enlighten us with your wisdom. In all humbleness and in a gentle
                    > spirit of course.

                    I'm sure you could do as much to enlighten me as I could you {if not more} 
                    >
                    > Its great to hear you're doing just fine. It seems that God can even
                    > work outside the covering of the Pottershouse.

                    Indeed he can. I saw that in a fresh way in Kenya last year, not only in my own life but in the ministry of former fellowship pastor Joseph Karanja. I'm looking forward to all God has for me this year as well.

                    ps : I was hoping to make it back to Kenya this year. {May still do so} but I have been invited to another country to minister. Please pray that I may know God's perfect will in all this and for the release of finances for all I believe He has put on my heart. I'm going to be a lot more involved in evangelism this year as well.

                    God bless you...naboth675

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