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Re: [slamthedoor] Re: How did it get to this? Error in CFM doctrine

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  • Kevin Hemp
    My wife had already been at the church 8 years by the time I came on the scene.  She was divorced and had 3 kids.  Most of her immediate family was
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 21, 2008
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      My wife had already been at the church 8 years by the time I came on the scene.  She was divorced and had 3 kids.  Most of her immediate family was entrenched at The Door in Yucca Valley so she really had no other support system.  I'm not much of an authoritarian, so I've always felt blessed that my wife was gracious enough to allow me to be the leader of our home and marriage.  Come on guys, let's face it.  Who really runs the family?  Yeah, the wife; however, in it's proper context there's a mutual respect for one another and that's something my wife and I have always had from the beginning.  If it came down to a power struggle, hey I admit it, she wins.  My wife never made me face that ultimatum, and I'm truly thankful for that. Also, by that time, we were becoming well aware of the turmoil that awaited us should we decide to really go through with it.  We took the path of least resistance and, I think, both kind of breathed a sigh of relief.
      Wow, you were at that conference!
      -Kevin- 
      -Kevin-

      --- On Sun, 12/21/08, kenhaining777 <kenhaining777@...> wrote:
      From: kenhaining777 <kenhaining777@...>
      Subject: [slamthedoor] Re: How did it get to this? Error in CFM doctrine
      To: slamthedoor@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, December 21, 2008, 7:58 PM

      Kevin said:

      [4. The Grace of God is mocked. My wife and I attended a CFM
      pastors' conference in Prescott, AZ a while back (in '92). Wayman
      graciously invited a guest speaker to attend and preach who was not a
      part of the CFM ministries. His style was obviously foreign to me,
      and he preached a lot about the grace of God and His amazing love for
      us. After he was done preaching and left the immediate area, he
      became the butt of jokes and a person to be mocked over the pulpit.
      If a CFM preacher wanted to get a good laugh all they had to do for
      the rest of the conference was mock that pastor and say "Ooh, Grace,
      Grace".]

      I also attended that conference.  I was thoroughly disgusted and so were a lot of the people from my church who attended.  It was less than two years before I would leave the fellowship.

      I had been listening to Chuck Swindoll on the radio, and, if you are familiar with him, he is heavy on grace.  When I mentioned to Bill Coolidge that Swindoll says that there are no apostles living today, Coolidge's response was, "He's an idiot." (Coolidge had just referred to Wayman as "the Apostle Mitchell" in his sermon.) All of Swindoll's teachings were dismissed as corrupt because he embraces the eternal security of the believer.  These guys had no problem calling any and all other Christian teachers idiots, and even demonic. (Swindoll's book, The Grace Awakening, is a great book to read, by the way.)

      Wayman and the boys particularly hated Calvary Chapels because of their success, and because they didn't take offerings.  I was guilty of going along with this hatred and preachng against Calvary Chapel. You would think that we would have had something better to preach against than other Bible believing churches, but not so. (Perhaps the fact that the fellowship doesn't really believe the Bible has something to do with that.)  From the day I started attending the Door in Tucson I heard other churches being bashed. It was part of the program of Waymanchrist to impart a religious pride to the members of Waymanland.  That pride was useful in keeping members in the fold, with all the free labor and money that went with them.

      In the early days of the fellowship, we would frequently have preachers from outside the fellowship, and outside Foursquare Gospel, the denomination that we belonged to.  Depending on what they were like, they too were often subject to mockery after they left.  However, we would still keep trying different ministers from different groups.  Once we broke off Foursquare in 1983, we slowly began to have less and less preachers from outside our fellowship.  The preacher you saw in 1992 was probably the last time an outsider was allowed to preach at Prescott conference.  Actually, he was one of the first ones that we had at a conference in about a decade.

      The 1990 split complicated things for those independent ministers who would preach in fellowship churches.  At first Wayman told them that it was there business who they preached for, so some of them continued to preach for "both sides."  Wayman quickly back tracked on this and told these independent ministers that if they preached for the "rebels," they could no longer preach for the fellowship. 

      I guess Wes Baker finally had enough of it, and when Dale Reece split the fellowship in 2001, Wes went to preach for him anyway.  Mitch promptly threw Wes out of the fellowship, but I think Wes just flat didn't care at that point.  He had played Mitch's game for almost 30 years, and was probably planning on retiring anyway. 

      Any independent ministers who preach in the fellowship are few and far between, and the attitude is that they "need to submit to headship," meaning they must give their lives and hearts to Waymanchrist.  It would eventually come to a point where either they did that, or the fellowship wouldn't use them any more. 

      You obviously stayed for a long time after that conference.  It is interesting looking back and recall times where you "saw through it," yet the social mechanisms that were in place were just too effective, and you stayed.  I almost left the first year I was in Wayman's World.  I have often pondered what my life would have been like had I actually left in 1976, instead of 1994. 

      Based on what you wrote in another post, it seems your wife was more than ready to leave.  I would be interested in any comments you would have on that.  One of the methods of keeping people that the fellowship employs has to do with married couples where one is ready to leave, but the other is not.  In many of these cases, the spouse who wants to stay is the one who wins out. 

      Shalom, or Peace to you, Kevin
      Ken


       

    • kenhaining777
      Kevin said: [My wife had already been at the church 8 years by the time I came on the scene. She was divorced and had 3 kids.] Did she get married in the
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 22, 2008
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        Kevin said:

        [My wife had already been at the church 8 years by the time I came on the scene.  She was divorced and had 3 kids.]

        Did she get married in the church the first time?  Or was she already married when she came in?  Was her ex a faithful member of the church?  Did he exercise any visitation rights with the kids?  What did they say about him at the church?

        She must have really been "the one" for you.  Most guys don't want to take on that kind of responsibility just going into a marriage.  Too bad the nephew is so weird.


        Kevin said:

        [Most of her immediate family was entrenched at The Door in Yucca Valley so she really had no other support system.  I'm not much of an authoritarian, so I've always felt blessed that my wife was gracious enough to allow me to be the leader of our home and marriage.]

        I had one gal tell me that she would never leave the fellowship, because if she did her family would disown her, and never speak to her.  Three of her sisters were pastors wives.  The way they teach people to disown family members who leave is especially wicked.  A total distortion of the Bible, and of any kind of decent behavior.

        Some fellowship guys are absolute overlords in their households.  They abuse both wife and children in the name of being the God appointed master of the home.  We had on gal stop over on Escape From the Fellowship and talk about how it was taught by some pastors to virtually rape the wife when she got in a wrong mood and attitude.  She noted that they said it was worth the clothes they tore to put her back in her place.  I have heard so many crazy stories about that fellowship that I tend to believe it.

        Back in the 80s, Larry Huch, who was sent out of Flagstaff, openly taught that women were to give their husbands oral sex on command.  He taught that this is a vital part of sex and that if a wife refused to give oral sex on command, she was causing her husband to commit adultery.  That one I have first hand, as I knew Huch.  He left in the 1990 exodus.  I think you can still catch him on Christian TV. 

        Then there was the way they treated the kids.  Did you send your kids to the boot camps at all?  Those were totally abusive, and designed to break the will of the kids.  The leaders even told me that it was for the purpose of breaking the will.  Crazy.  They even advocated spanking teenagers, which can get really funky. 

        So, it was better that you were not that authoritarian.



        Kevin said:

        [Come on guys, let's face it.  Who really runs the family?  Yeah, the wife; however, in it's proper context there's a mutual respect for one another and that's something my wife and I have always had from the beginning.  If it came down to a power struggle, hey I admit it, she wins.] 

        Members of the fellowship would, of course, point to this as being the "real reason" you left.  You didn't have your house in order and so Satan slipped in.  Mutual respect?  They have no use for that.  I am glad your home works for you.  And a lot of those who mock a man who defers to his wife are the ones who end up divorced. 


        Kevin said:

        [My wife never made me face that ultimatum, and I'm truly thankful for that. Also, by that time, we were becoming well aware of the turmoil that awaited us should we decide to really go through with it.  We took the path of least resistance and, I think, both kind of breathed a sigh of relief.]

        Many have faced the ultimatum to submit to the pastor, or the marriage will end.  George Potkonyak, who posts on Escape and some of the other message boards has a wild tale of his "pastor" breaking up his marriage.  The message is posted on Escape:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Escape_from_the_Fellowship/message/14945

        Take a peek, if you have the time. 

        How much discussion did you have with your wife before the final decision was made?  In one of your posts you seemed to indicate that she was disappointed when you, having come close to leaving, decided to stay.  I think that was where you mentioned the pastor's Vulcan Mind Meld Speech, which really made me laugh. 


        Kevin said:

        [Wow, you were at that conference!]

        Yes I was.  If I recall correctly, the preacher they were mocking was a Jewish Christian.  I forget his name.  Mitch said he was a nice guy, but just couldn't preach.  In other words, he didn't preach enslaving doctrines.

        Well, Kevin, answer as you are inclined and have time.  Thanks for your input.
        Shalom Aleichem



         

      • Kevin Hemp
        ... From: kenhaining777 Subject: [slamthedoor] Re: How did it get to this? Error in CFM doctrine To: slamthedoor@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 22, 2008
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          --- On Tue, 12/23/08, kenhaining777 <kenhaining777@...> wrote:
          From: kenhaining777 <kenhaining777@...>
          Subject: [slamthedoor] Re: How did it get to this? Error in CFM doctrine
          To: slamthedoor@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 3:13 AM
          Yes, she was married in the church.  Her husband really had a problem with the church (surprise); however, he was also pretty much fed up with marriage in general when he left.  He never showed up to the divorce hearing so my wife got full custody of the kids.  This kind of turned out to be a blessing in disguise, because he never interfered with our lives or made any demands, but he also never paid any child support either.  Since my wife was divorced we couldn't get married in the church.  We went to the Justice of the Peace.  Yeah the 'shunning', 'disowning' part of leaving is true and really hard on a family.  My kids have taken the rejection part really hard. 
           
          Ah, the boot camps.  We never sent our kids to the out of town boot camps, but our church in Yucca had mini-camps that they'd do on a Saturday afternoon or something.  I remember some of the ex-jar heads putting together a boot camp called 'The Weapons of Our Warfare'.  My kids went to that and they shot guns for most of the day.  Yeah, kind of weird. 
           
          How much discussion did I have with my wife before the final decision was made?  Not much at all.  We made up our minds the same night we went to visit her other brother, the one who helped convince us to leave.  At that point, it was kind of like "The third time's a charm" and we 'stuck to our guns'.  Yes, my wife was disappointed when I changed my mind the first time and decided to stay.  Things were really tense between us for about a week.  But eventually things went back to the normalacy of wearing blinders again.  Thanks for writing.
          -Kevin-
          Kevin said:

          [My wife had already been at the church 8 years by the time I came on the scene.  She was divorced and had 3 kids.]

          Did she get married in the church the first time?  Or was she already married when she came in?  Was her ex a faithful member of the church?  Did he exercise any visitation rights with the kids?  What did they say about him at the church?

          She must have really been "the one" for you.  Most guys don't want to take on that kind of responsibility just going into a marriage.  Too bad the nephew is so weird.


          Kevin said:

          [Most of her immediate family was entrenched at The Door in Yucca Valley so she really had no other support system.  I'm not much of an authoritarian, so I've always felt blessed that my wife was gracious enough to allow me to be the leader of our home and marriage.]

          I had one gal tell me that she would never leave the fellowship, because if she did her family would disown her, and never speak to her.  Three of her sisters were pastors wives.  The way they teach people to disown family members who leave is especially wicked.  A total distortion of the Bible, and of any kind of decent behavior.

          Some fellowship guys are absolute overlords in their households.  They abuse both wife and children in the name of being the God appointed master of the home.  We had on gal stop over on Escape From the Fellowship and talk about how it was taught by some pastors to virtually rape the wife when she got in a wrong mood and attitude.  She noted that they said it was worth the clothes they tore to put her back in her place.  I have heard so many crazy stories about that fellowship that I tend to believe it.

          Back in the 80s, Larry Huch, who was sent out of Flagstaff, openly taught that women were to give their husbands oral sex on command.  He taught that this is a vital part of sex and that if a wife refused to give oral sex on command, she was causing her husband to commit adultery.  That one I have first hand, as I knew Huch.  He left in the 1990 exodus.  I think you can still catch him on Christian TV. 

          Then there was the way they treated the kids.  Did you send your kids to the boot camps at all?  Those were totally abusive, and designed to break the will of the kids.  The leaders even told me that it was for the purpose of breaking the will.  Crazy.  They even advocated spanking teenagers, which can get really funky. 

          So, it was better that you were not that authoritarian.



          Kevin said:

          [Come on guys, let's face it.  Who really runs the family?  Yeah, the wife; however, in it's proper context there's a mutual respect for one another and that's something my wife and I have always had from the beginning.  If it came down to a power struggle, hey I admit it, she wins.] 

          Members of the fellowship would, of course, point to this as being the "real reason" you left.  You didn't have your house in order and so Satan slipped in.  Mutual respect?  They have no use for that.  I am glad your home works for you.  And a lot of those who mock a man who defers to his wife are the ones who end up divorced. 


          Kevin said:

          [My wife never made me face that ultimatum, and I'm truly thankful for that. Also, by that time, we were becoming well aware of the turmoil that awaited us should we decide to really go through with it.  We took the path of least resistance and, I think, both kind of breathed a sigh of relief.]

          Many have faced the ultimatum to submit to the pastor, or the marriage will end.  George Potkonyak, who posts on Escape and some of the other message boards has a wild tale of his "pastor" breaking up his marriage.  The message is posted on Escape:

          http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/Escape_ from_the_ Fellowship/ message/14945

          Take a peek, if you have the time. 

          How much discussion did you have with your wife before the final decision was made?  In one of your posts you seemed to indicate that she was disappointed when you, having come close to leaving, decided to stay.  I think that was where you mentioned the pastor's Vulcan Mind Meld Speech, which really made me laugh. 


          Kevin said:

          [Wow, you were at that conference!]

          Yes I was.  If I recall correctly, the preacher they were mocking was a Jewish Christian.  I forget his name.  Mitch said he was a nice guy, but just couldn't preach.  In other words, he didn't preach enslaving doctrines.

          Well, Kevin, answer as you are inclined and have time.  Thanks for your input.
          Shalom Aleichem



           


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