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887Re: making and destroying saints we wish we had

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  • Andrea Arden
    Jan 5, 2000
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      To Ruy, Margaret and All:

      From Ruy:

      >Dear Margaret,
      >The problem is that lot of stuff about ancient healing and civilization is
      >channelled material which can't be proved to be true or false. What you
      have said
      >in fact is much of what I have said here and on other lists but I noticed
      that
      >you have not noted that others like myself just don't see things in the
      same way
      >as you or Patrick. I don't know who you are refering to "stoning Patrick".
      All I
      >those I have seen are people who do not see the things as he does. He is
      not
      >irritating me. I am just saying although I am prepared to let him do his
      own
      >thing and believe what he wants to believe we have a right believe what we
      all
      >want to believe individually. I know Patrick knows what I mean when I say
      he does
      >not reflect the image that he can accept that others not not see things
      his way
      >and that he is the one, it appears, won't let things and people be what
      they are.


      I agree with you, Ruy, and I think that's the major issue here. Yesterday,
      a list member asked me privately why what seemed to him to be so simple to
      resolve never did. I answered by basically saying the same thing: that
      Patrick is unwilling to allow anyone to disagree with him or question his
      methods. Unfortunately, some of us here are unwilling to embrace those
      methods. I think *questioning* is a sign of good mental health. The
      insistance that everyone in a group see things the way it's leader does is
      one of the signs of cult behavior.

      I think Patrick's reactions here are interesting when you consider the fact
      that Faith and Fiona left the list voluntarily soon after he arrived and
      haven't returned. I don't consider my remarks to him to be an attack,
      though he did. Yes, I challenged the misrepresentations he made here and
      refused to close the list (which was never his, BTW), but I consider that
      to be more defensive than attacking. In the past year, I haven't posted
      anything about him anywhere, and there's nothing on my website about him,
      so I don't think he has a good reason to think I was persecuting him.

      >I think a short while ago he was doing more than
      >speaking out. That is why I thought he was fostering the same situation
      which may
      >have happened in his class.


      Yes, in my view he was, which is interesting to me because in the core
      group he was much less "active" (to use his word). At that time, his focus
      was more on encouraging that sort of negative interaction between the class
      members, and then he would withdraw and not respond to our requests for
      intervention. In thinking about it now, the fact that he could get so
      "active" here suggests that maybe there *has* been some healing and he's
      having an epiphany! :)

      But seriously, I don't mean to make light of it or be cynical, because I
      truly would like to see him have a better understanding of his part in
      creating the situation -- not because I need vindication, but because after
      20 years of counseling people about their negative life patterns, I know
      that you can't change anything until you see how you've created if for
      yourself. This concept is a pretty basic piece of spiritual awareness, so
      I'm really surprised that he's so resistant to embracing it.

      Again from Ruy to Margaret:

      >You assumed I was "irritated by him" because of my message. It would seem
      that
      >you are saying I am one of those stoning him. If my messages here do make
      it
      >appear that I am doing that I am sorry. I offer my deepest apologies to
      him,
      >yourself and others who feel the same way. And if I am not welcomed on
      this list
      >because I am expressing views that do not agree with Patrick's and others
      on this
      >list I am prepared to leave it.

      Ruy, you are most certainly welcome on this list. The only reasons anyone
      should feel unwelcome here is for making untrue statements or pretending to
      be someone other than they are for the purpose of misleading the list. As
      far as I'm concerned, having a different view is NOT a good reason for
      anyone to leave this list. In fact, it's all the more reason to stay.

      Love and Blessings,
      Andrea
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