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Re: [sig] Re: Ukrainian Rus Clothing

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  • Susan Koziel
    ... Will do.. give me a couple of days
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 23, 2005
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      --- mamainna2000 <LiudmilaV@...> wrote:
      > Hi Katarina,
      >
      > would it be too much trouble to scan some of the
      > text? In particular,
      > I care for pages corresponding to picture #5 in your
      > files. I wonder
      > if she has any better proof of these reconstractions
      > than I saw
      > before. Thank you!
      >
      > Liudmila
      >
      Will do.. give me a couple of days
    • Rick Orli
      I would especially appreciate any images of 16th-17th C. womans clothing, that is not of a clearly western cut. -Rick
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 28, 2005
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        I would especially appreciate any images of 16th-17th C. womans
        clothing, that is not of a clearly western cut.
        -Rick

        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Kataryna Dragonweaver"
        <kataryna_dragonweaver@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings,
        > I just uploaded some pictures I scanned from a book on Historical
        > Ukrainian Costume. These pictures come from the section of the book
        > that discusses pre-1800's clothing (aside from the front cover and
        > inside page pictures). I have copies of those chapeters of the book
        > (In Ukrainian)... if people would like I can scan and post some of
        > those pages.
        > They are in my folder in the files section of the yahoo group.
        > -Kataryna
      • aleannain@aol.com
        It would be nice to see some 14th centiry if there is any. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 28, 2005
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          It would be nice to see some 14th centiry if there is any.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jennifer knox
          well, i have some images of 14th century moldavian costume (just reproduced it for an a&s entry) i could upload it if anyone is interested? if any of you reads
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 29, 2005
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            well, i have some images of 14th century moldavian costume (just reproduced it for an a&s entry) i could upload it if anyone is interested? if any of you reads german ive got a great book which is about byzantine art but focuses on the slavic areas.
            anya


            aleannain@... wrote:

            It would be nice to see some 14th centiry if there is any.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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          • L. Williams
            Yes please! I d like to see! Lisa W. in Montana well, i have some images of 14th century moldavian costume (just reproduced it for an a&s entry) i could upload
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 30, 2005
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              Yes please! I'd like to see!
              Lisa W. in Montana


              well, i have some images of 14th century moldavian costume (just reproduced it for an a&s entry) i could upload it if anyone is interested?

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Hedwig zum Zuckerbar
              What I d LOVE to find is Bohemian garb from the late 12th to mid 13th centuries. Every thing I ve found so far is mostly Western European in influence. Any
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 30, 2005
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                What I'd LOVE to find is Bohemian garb from the late 12th to mid 13th
                centuries. Every thing I've found so far is mostly Western European
                in influence. Any help would be great!

                --
                Hedwig

                "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell them you
                are, then you aren't."
                Margaret Thatcher
              • trishkavictoria
                Please do upload the images, I for one would love to see them. Trishka ... reproduced it for an a&s entry) i could upload it if anyone is interested? if any of
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 30, 2005
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                  Please do upload the images, I for one would love to see them.

                  Trishka
                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, jennifer knox <jeniferknox@y...> wrote:
                  > well, i have some images of 14th century moldavian costume (just
                  reproduced it for an a&s entry) i could upload it if anyone is
                  interested? if any of you reads german ive got a great book which is
                  about byzantine art but focuses on the slavic areas.
                  > anya
                  >
                  >
                • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                  ... Ok, have you checked out Srokova, Gothic Women s Dress? -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net Even monsters don t like to be
                  Message 8 of 13 , Mar 30, 2005
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                    > What I'd LOVE to find is Bohemian garb from the late 12th to mid 13th
                    > centuries. Every thing I've found so far is mostly Western European
                    > in influence. Any help would be great!

                    Ok, have you checked out Srokova, Gothic Women's Dress?

                    --
                    -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                    "Even monsters don't like to be misunderstood." - J. Von Culin
                  • Cathy or Catey
                    With all this talk about garb, I figure I should ask my Qs too. Anyone have websites or books with pix of 13th/14th C Hungarian women s (men s OK too)
                    Message 9 of 13 , Mar 30, 2005
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                      With all this talk about garb, I figure I should ask my Qs too. Anyone have
                      websites or books with pix of 13th/14th C Hungarian women's (men's OK too)
                      clothing? How about the same for Mongolian armor?



                      Thankx,

                      Katara





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tim Nalley
                      Persian manuscripts by Grey. Lots of detailed drawings of mongol era warriors, and an excellent guide to mongol armor in the White Horde. Also some very good
                      Message 10 of 13 , Mar 31, 2005
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                        Persian manuscripts by Grey. Lots of detailed drawings
                        of mongol era warriors, and an excellent guide to
                        mongol armor in the White Horde. Also some very good
                        contemporary invasion drawings.


                        --- Cathy or Catey <daycl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > With all this talk about garb, I figure I should ask
                        > my Qs too. Anyone have
                        > websites or books with pix of 13th/14th C Hungarian
                        > women's (men's OK too)
                        > clothing? How about the same for Mongolian armor?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thankx,
                        >
                        > Katara
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



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                      • Elysska z Turnow
                        Hello Hedwig, I am happy to see someone else interested in Bohemia! We are few and far between! I understand your curiosity about non-western influences in
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 2, 2005
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                          Hello Hedwig,

                          I am happy to see someone else interested in Bohemia! We are few and far
                          between! I understand your curiosity about non-western influences in medieval
                          Bohemian dress, and if you are able to find any, please let me know! My interest is
                          in mid to late 14th century but because there is so little in english out there, I end up
                          reviewing the entire medieval period, especially when it comes to costume history!

                          Although Bohemia was an unusually nationalist state of the middle ages (where
                          ethnic czechs were concerned), the cultural focus was directed towards the west,
                          and by extension, the nonslavic. As you are probably aware, the aggressive
                          settlement of bohemia by Germans and exodus to Bohemian German-Law towns
                          during the 12th and 13th centuries also had a strong cultural impact. German dress
                          style, music/literature/poetry, and manners were adopted by anyone wishing to show
                          that they too had power and money. Although there was a lot of conflict and
                          resentment of this, the pretensions of the wealthy were often accompanied by
                          German-style pretensions as well.

                          Prague was a cosmopolitan centre, attracting people from surrounding nations as
                          well as Germans, French, and Italians, all bringing cultural exchange. In addition,
                          the discovery of silver mines in the mid 13th century brought another major shift.
                          From 1250-1412, precious metal production shifted from western europe to Bohemia.
                          The massive output of silver mines at Jihlava enabled King Otakar II to draw 2000
                          marks, or 4 tonnes of silver, per year for his own personal coffers. This silver was
                          often traded for goods from outside the country, importing fabrics and other cultural
                          goods to bohemia instead of encouraging the indigenous production of unique and
                          culturally specific goods.

                          I continue my search for costuming references that highlight the distinctly
                          "bohemian" in dress, but so far the references I have found have shown that
                          Medieval Bohemian dress was consistent with that of other western european
                          nations. In some cases, especially in the 14th century, czechs were very
                          flamboyant, favouring embellished and apparently exagerrated fashion.

                          There have been a couple intriguing little pictures in the anthology of czech poetry
                          which look quite distinctive. Also, refer to the Velislav Picture Bible for the
                          similarities to Western clothing. Some of the art I've seen shows a distinctly
                          byzantine styling, however the clothing remains without the ethnic distinctiveness
                          that contemporary ukrainian or hungarian fashion had. My understanding is that
                          Bohemia's closest eastern cultural neighbour was Poland, and I would suggest a
                          cross-comparison between contemporary German, Polish and Bohemian pictorial
                          sources.


                          Now... on to the References:


                          French, A., Anthology of Czech Poetry . Ann Arbor, Mich. : Czechoslovak Society
                          of Arts and Sciences in America, 1973- Has just a few wee images before each
                          poem, some are fascinatingly obscure.

                          Sronkova, Olga. Gothic Woman's Fashion. Prague: Artia. - this is excellent and
                          covers earlier as well as later women's fashion.

                          Drobná, Zoroslava. Les Tresors de la Broderie Religieuse en
                          Tchecoslovaquie. [Wloszczowski] Prague, Sfinx, 1950. 63 p. plates
                          (part col.), a small volume with about 27 pages of French language
                          text relevant to our period. Plates are gorgeous. this book describes
                          embellishment. I have translated the relevant section on beading in
                          the fourteenth century, not anything further however. it covers
                          secular and religious embroidery.

                          Drobná, Zoroslava. Gothic drawing Translated by Jean Layton. Prague, :
                          Artia [195-]. Line drawings and unfinished illuminations spanning 13th-15th century.
                          Excellent source material, unusual/rarely seen images - including a fascinating
                          series of occupational dress illustrations - 14th century tavern-keeper,
                          bathhouse girl, miller etc etc.

                          Newton, Stella Mary. Fashion in the Age of the Black Prince: a study
                          of the years 1340-65. Woodbridge: Boydell Press; Totowa, NJ: Rowman
                          and Littlefield,1980. 157p. Index and bibliography. ISBN 0847669394.
                          Newton describes regional differences including a long discussion of
                          the frilled or goffered veil and its popularity in Bohemia. - this will only be useful for
                          you to see that Western stylings were well-entrenched in Bohemia by the 14th
                          century.

                          Medieval Costume, Armour, and Weapons
                          by Eduard Wagner, Zoroslava Drobna, Jan Durdik. Dover Publications,
                          2001. This book has line drawings copied from czech miniatures,
                          illuminations and other artwork. If you have been looking at medieval
                          czech art (i have references for that, too), you will be familiar with
                          most of these images, but the helpful thing is that Wagner has
                          organized them into topics - a whole page of belt-purses, a whole page
                          of knives, etc etc, so you can view the variations on this without
                          having to actually do as I was doing before getting this book: tracing
                          the art. Only comment on this is WATCH out for drawings of people who
                          might actually have originally been illustrated as angels (now taken
                          out of context). Their clothes are usually not representative of what
                          was actually worn but rather a fantasy of finery. I usually note any
                          outfit that looks out of place, unusual in length or decoration, and
                          try to find other examples of the same style, shown in a secular
                          environment.

                          Boucher, Francois. 20,000 Years of Fashion - The History of Costume &
                          Personal Adornment. New York: Harry N. Abrams, Inc., 1962. FA RF RM
                          391.09 B75h1 Pretty standard general history of costume. Is a decent
                          introduction to costume history. Divides medieval Europe into
                          western and eastern regions, does not cover east central europe,
                          however. Boucher "is honorary curator of Musee Carnavalet and
                          director of french center for costume studies."

                          With hopes of having helped,

                          Elysska


                          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Hedwig zum Zuckerbar <honeyfrog1968@g...> wrote:
                          >
                          > What I'd LOVE to find is Bohemian garb from the late 12th to mid 13th
                          > centuries. Every thing I've found so far is mostly Western European
                          > in influence. Any help would be great!
                          >
                          > --
                          > Hedwig
                          >
                          > "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell them you
                          > are, then you aren't."
                          > Margaret Thatcher
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