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Re[4]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    Greetings! ... Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
      Greetings!

      > Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
      > directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
      > are cut apart and placed differently then how they
      > were actually placed in the text I had copies from.
      Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I didn't find out why the second (third, if we start the count from the women's boots at the very top) picture of high boots was placed where it was placed (opposite the passage saying about textiles).

      >
      > Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
      > specific costume for women that would cover... the
      > period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
      > when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
      > up.
      > I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
      > they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
      > a bit more focused way then they do the later years
      > which they sort of just stick all together.)
      Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific interest. All I have is the well-known book on costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* - can't remember the exact title being at work, here it is often mentioned as a source reliable but rather generalized), there is a chapter about Ukraine.
      Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume, I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported items - as status symbols, especially in late period.

      Bye,
      Alex.
    • Susan Koziel
      ... I just thought I d ask. ... If you manage to dig up the title one of these days that would be great. ... Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
        --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
        > interest. All I have is the well-known book on
        > costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
        > can't remember the exact title being at work, here
        > it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
        > rather generalized), there is a chapter about
        > Ukraine.

        I just thought I'd ask.
        :)
        If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
        that would be great.

        > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
        > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
        > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
        > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
        > items - as status symbols, especially in late
        > period.

        Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
        such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
        they put the pieces together - and find some primary
        sources from the area as back up.
        Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
        the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
        translation & report how it is as a source.
        ;)
        -Kataryna
      • Lente
        don t know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I don t remember
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
          don't know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine
          Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I
          don't remember if it goes into how the folk dress developed or not but had
          some wonderful designs and in the last chapter or so it had instructions for
          making a shirt with embroidery. since it is spesicfally on the Ukraine
          embroidery it may be better than the general folk costumes books. Another
          book to maybe look for is called _Costumes of the East_ has a bit of text on
          the balkans, casasus and ukraines region, some line drawings and possibly
          some pictures.

          Kathws

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Susan Koziel" <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
          To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:30 AM
          Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page


          >
          > --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
          > wrote:
          >>
          >> Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
          >> interest. All I have is the well-known book on
          >> costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
          >> can't remember the exact title being at work, here
          >> it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
          >> rather generalized), there is a chapter about
          >> Ukraine.
          >
          > I just thought I'd ask.
          > :)
          > If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
          > that would be great.
          >
          >> Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
          >> inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
          >> costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
          >> I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
          >> items - as status symbols, especially in late
          >> period.
          >
          > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
          > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
          > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
          > sources from the area as back up.
          > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
          > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
          > translation & report how it is as a source.
          > ;)
          > -Kataryna
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Rick Orli
          Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men, in the 15th-16th C seems to have
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
            Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
            partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
            in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
            tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
            that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
            local military fashions as their own, which because common
            throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
            the Lithuanians.

            Generations later it might work more as you say, with the Ukranians
            following the Polish Commonwealth fashions (that were variants of
            what was once a Ukraninan fashion). However, they would not have
            been seen as alien imports, I do not think. Also, if we try to
            speculate where the 17th C. kontuz fashion came from, a good guess
            is that it came from fresh influences again from the east, perhaps
            tatar, and via people who were either Ukranian or serving there.

            Warning, there is a lot of guesswork in my assertions above! Just
            my best guess on how things might have gone (but at least I can
            assure you that I am not a Ukranian nationalism booster.)




            > > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
            > > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
            > > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
            > > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
            > > items - as status symbols, especially in late
            > > period.
            >
            > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
            > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
            > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
            > sources from the area as back up.
            > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
            > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
            > translation & report how it is as a source.
            > ;)
            > -Kataryna
          • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
            ... Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were roman/byzantine
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
              > Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
              > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
              > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
              > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
              > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
              > local military fashions as their own, which because common
              > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
              > the Lithuanians.

              Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were
              Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were
              roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've seen still show a
              pretty standard German/Italian influence in the costumes, but with the
              zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.

              --
              -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
              "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a Communist or a
              Republican." - Karen Schneider
            • Tim Nalley
              Got to agree there but differ only slightly in pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in the
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
                Got to agree there but differ only slightly in
                pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the
                dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in
                the 16C when Stephen Bathory, former prince of
                Transylvania, was invited to be King of Poland by the
                Polish Senate, an brought his Haduk soldiers into
                Cracow and Warsaw in their "eastern fashions". Also,
                the fashion had started to morph earlier than that as
                witnessed in the Battle of Orsa" painting which shows
                Polish riders wearinga mixture of Western fashions
                populat during the Jagellion Dynasty and eastern
                fashions popular in Hungary and Ruthenia, popularised
                by contacts with the Turks after the Battle of Mohacs
                just a few short years before.
                'dak
                --- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                <jenne@...> wrote:

                > > Actually, I would put this argument on its head,
                > at least
                > > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume,
                > at least for men,
                > > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from
                > Eastern inflences -
                > > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian.
                > Specifically, my belief is
                > > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area
                > picked up the common
                > > local military fashions as their own, which
                > because common
                > > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles
                > picked it up from
                > > the Lithuanians.
                >
                > Well, it seems that there was a set of military
                > fashions that were
                > Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century
                > that were
                > roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've
                > seen still show a
                > pretty standard German/Italian influence in the
                > costumes, but with the
                > zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.
                >
                > --
                > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                > jenne@...
                > "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a
                > Communist or a
                > Republican." - Karen Schneider
                >





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