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Re: Re[2]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page

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  • Jenna Mitelman
    Looking at the text more closely, I would have to agree with Alexei that it s not a great resource if you re looking for a reliable source on pre-1600
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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      Looking at the text more closely, I would have to agree with Alexei
      that it's not a great resource if you're looking for a reliable source
      on pre-1600 clothing.
      It's more of a general view of Cossack clothing, beginning at the very
      end of our period of interest, and going on for a couple of centuries
      after, which makes makes it not reliable for specifics if you want to
      say that "I say this here, so it must be *period* for me".
      I would say it is rather useful if you want to get a general "feel"
      for the look common in the area, and know nothing about it. But you
      have to keep in mind the limitations of a text like this for producing
      something "accurate" to a given time period. You would be fairly
      likely to get something that is an 18th century variation on garments
      that existed in your desired time frame, and this text wouldn't really
      tell you the difference.
      But for a very generalized look at the area and its general feel,
      which I think can be useful for some people, it's decent.

      This is entirely my opinion, so you're welcome to disregard it
      entirely if you so choose, but you've been warned that there are
      reservations about this text as an accurate timely source.

      ~Aryenne
    • Susan Koziel
      ... Not really a suprize, I don t think the text is directly from the book... mostly because the pictures are cut apart and placed differently then how they
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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        --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > Greetings!
        > > Just thought I'd share
        > > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html
        >
        > > Thank you for your post. I am very interested in
        > creating some Ukrainian
        > > garb and an appropriate persona to go with the
        > garb, so this is right up my
        > > alley. Do you have a date for these pictures?
        > Now I wish that I kept my
        > > daughter in Ukrainian school so she could
        > translate for me.
        > They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo
        > general review of "Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of
        > 14-18 centuries".

        Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
        directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
        are cut apart and placed differently then how they
        were actually placed in the text I had copies from.

        Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
        specific costume for women that would cover... the
        period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
        when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
        up.
        I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
        they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
        a bit more focused way then they do the later years
        which they sort of just stick all together.)
        -Kataryna
      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Greetings! ... Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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          Greetings!

          > Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
          > directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
          > are cut apart and placed differently then how they
          > were actually placed in the text I had copies from.
          Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I didn't find out why the second (third, if we start the count from the women's boots at the very top) picture of high boots was placed where it was placed (opposite the passage saying about textiles).

          >
          > Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
          > specific costume for women that would cover... the
          > period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
          > when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
          > up.
          > I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
          > they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
          > a bit more focused way then they do the later years
          > which they sort of just stick all together.)
          Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific interest. All I have is the well-known book on costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* - can't remember the exact title being at work, here it is often mentioned as a source reliable but rather generalized), there is a chapter about Ukraine.
          Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume, I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported items - as status symbols, especially in late period.

          Bye,
          Alex.
        • Susan Koziel
          ... I just thought I d ask. ... If you manage to dig up the title one of these days that would be great. ... Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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            --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
            > interest. All I have is the well-known book on
            > costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
            > can't remember the exact title being at work, here
            > it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
            > rather generalized), there is a chapter about
            > Ukraine.

            I just thought I'd ask.
            :)
            If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
            that would be great.

            > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
            > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
            > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
            > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
            > items - as status symbols, especially in late
            > period.

            Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
            such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
            they put the pieces together - and find some primary
            sources from the area as back up.
            Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
            the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
            translation & report how it is as a source.
            ;)
            -Kataryna
          • Lente
            don t know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I don t remember
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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              don't know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine
              Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I
              don't remember if it goes into how the folk dress developed or not but had
              some wonderful designs and in the last chapter or so it had instructions for
              making a shirt with embroidery. since it is spesicfally on the Ukraine
              embroidery it may be better than the general folk costumes books. Another
              book to maybe look for is called _Costumes of the East_ has a bit of text on
              the balkans, casasus and ukraines region, some line drawings and possibly
              some pictures.

              Kathws

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Susan Koziel" <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
              To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:30 AM
              Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page


              >
              > --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
              > wrote:
              >>
              >> Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
              >> interest. All I have is the well-known book on
              >> costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
              >> can't remember the exact title being at work, here
              >> it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
              >> rather generalized), there is a chapter about
              >> Ukraine.
              >
              > I just thought I'd ask.
              > :)
              > If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
              > that would be great.
              >
              >> Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
              >> inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
              >> costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
              >> I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
              >> items - as status symbols, especially in late
              >> period.
              >
              > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
              > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
              > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
              > sources from the area as back up.
              > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
              > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
              > translation & report how it is as a source.
              > ;)
              > -Kataryna
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Rick Orli
              Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men, in the 15th-16th C seems to have
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
                partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
                in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
                tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
                that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
                local military fashions as their own, which because common
                throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
                the Lithuanians.

                Generations later it might work more as you say, with the Ukranians
                following the Polish Commonwealth fashions (that were variants of
                what was once a Ukraninan fashion). However, they would not have
                been seen as alien imports, I do not think. Also, if we try to
                speculate where the 17th C. kontuz fashion came from, a good guess
                is that it came from fresh influences again from the east, perhaps
                tatar, and via people who were either Ukranian or serving there.

                Warning, there is a lot of guesswork in my assertions above! Just
                my best guess on how things might have gone (but at least I can
                assure you that I am not a Ukranian nationalism booster.)




                > > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
                > > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
                > > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
                > > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
                > > items - as status symbols, especially in late
                > > period.
                >
                > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
                > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
                > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
                > sources from the area as back up.
                > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
                > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
                > translation & report how it is as a source.
                > ;)
                > -Kataryna
              • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                ... Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were roman/byzantine
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                  > Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
                  > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
                  > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
                  > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
                  > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
                  > local military fashions as their own, which because common
                  > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
                  > the Lithuanians.

                  Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were
                  Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were
                  roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've seen still show a
                  pretty standard German/Italian influence in the costumes, but with the
                  zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.

                  --
                  -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                  "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a Communist or a
                  Republican." - Karen Schneider
                • Tim Nalley
                  Got to agree there but differ only slightly in pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                    Got to agree there but differ only slightly in
                    pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the
                    dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in
                    the 16C when Stephen Bathory, former prince of
                    Transylvania, was invited to be King of Poland by the
                    Polish Senate, an brought his Haduk soldiers into
                    Cracow and Warsaw in their "eastern fashions". Also,
                    the fashion had started to morph earlier than that as
                    witnessed in the Battle of Orsa" painting which shows
                    Polish riders wearinga mixture of Western fashions
                    populat during the Jagellion Dynasty and eastern
                    fashions popular in Hungary and Ruthenia, popularised
                    by contacts with the Turks after the Battle of Mohacs
                    just a few short years before.
                    'dak
                    --- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                    <jenne@...> wrote:

                    > > Actually, I would put this argument on its head,
                    > at least
                    > > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume,
                    > at least for men,
                    > > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from
                    > Eastern inflences -
                    > > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian.
                    > Specifically, my belief is
                    > > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area
                    > picked up the common
                    > > local military fashions as their own, which
                    > because common
                    > > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles
                    > picked it up from
                    > > the Lithuanians.
                    >
                    > Well, it seems that there was a set of military
                    > fashions that were
                    > Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century
                    > that were
                    > roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've
                    > seen still show a
                    > pretty standard German/Italian influence in the
                    > costumes, but with the
                    > zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.
                    >
                    > --
                    > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                    > jenne@...
                    > "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a
                    > Communist or a
                    > Republican." - Karen Schneider
                    >





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