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Re[2]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    Greetings! ... They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo general review of Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of 14-18 centuries . I do not like it. It dores
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 1 2:24 AM
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      Greetings!
      > Just thought I'd share
      > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html

      > Thank you for your post. I am very interested in creating some Ukrainian
      > garb and an appropriate persona to go with the garb, so this is right up my
      > alley. Do you have a date for these pictures? Now I wish that I kept my
      > daughter in Ukrainian school so she could translate for me.
      They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo general review of "Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of 14-18 centuries". I do not like it. It dores not say what was where, why, or at least, when. Instead, it says "they wore ..., ..., ... . This and this had different variant patterns depending on the region (no naming what teh differences were)". 5\7 of tehg text is city and countryside wear of Ukraine. The rest is the story of what Cossacks looked like. I appreciated the piece where the author pretended to depict the general look, costume and hairdressing of the Cossacks, speaking ONLY of the hairdressing. The most strange notion is that (after extensive review of Ukrainian costume) the Cossacks had two outfits - the working/battle one, called Podly Odyag (low outfit), again no description, and the holiday outfit, consisting of most posh garb, "mainly trophies". Thus, nothing about the Cossacks, the story says about Ukraine traditional wear and about SOME Cossack features.

      The weakest pouint (but - sorry, I am again stepping on Today's minefield) is that the text pretends to review Ukraine's own dress but the pics show mostly Polish wear (no wonder - remembering who ruled Ukraine in the period mentioned, especially when Lietuva and Poland united), as it was a lower status symbol for those times. The autrhor should have mentioned at least _why_ polish look was considered in-status for Ukraine - but it does vice versa, pretending all that Ukrainians had and wore those centuries, was their original development. How typical of young states... :-(((
    • Jenna Mitelman
      Looking at the text more closely, I would have to agree with Alexei that it s not a great resource if you re looking for a reliable source on pre-1600
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 1 12:03 PM
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        Looking at the text more closely, I would have to agree with Alexei
        that it's not a great resource if you're looking for a reliable source
        on pre-1600 clothing.
        It's more of a general view of Cossack clothing, beginning at the very
        end of our period of interest, and going on for a couple of centuries
        after, which makes makes it not reliable for specifics if you want to
        say that "I say this here, so it must be *period* for me".
        I would say it is rather useful if you want to get a general "feel"
        for the look common in the area, and know nothing about it. But you
        have to keep in mind the limitations of a text like this for producing
        something "accurate" to a given time period. You would be fairly
        likely to get something that is an 18th century variation on garments
        that existed in your desired time frame, and this text wouldn't really
        tell you the difference.
        But for a very generalized look at the area and its general feel,
        which I think can be useful for some people, it's decent.

        This is entirely my opinion, so you're welcome to disregard it
        entirely if you so choose, but you've been warned that there are
        reservations about this text as an accurate timely source.

        ~Aryenne
      • Susan Koziel
        ... Not really a suprize, I don t think the text is directly from the book... mostly because the pictures are cut apart and placed differently then how they
        Message 3 of 16 , Mar 1 4:24 PM
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          --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
          wrote:
          >
          >
          > Greetings!
          > > Just thought I'd share
          > > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html
          >
          > > Thank you for your post. I am very interested in
          > creating some Ukrainian
          > > garb and an appropriate persona to go with the
          > garb, so this is right up my
          > > alley. Do you have a date for these pictures?
          > Now I wish that I kept my
          > > daughter in Ukrainian school so she could
          > translate for me.
          > They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo
          > general review of "Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of
          > 14-18 centuries".

          Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
          directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
          are cut apart and placed differently then how they
          were actually placed in the text I had copies from.

          Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
          specific costume for women that would cover... the
          period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
          when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
          up.
          I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
          they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
          a bit more focused way then they do the later years
          which they sort of just stick all together.)
          -Kataryna
        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
          Greetings! ... Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 2 1:07 AM
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            Greetings!

            > Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
            > directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
            > are cut apart and placed differently then how they
            > were actually placed in the text I had copies from.
            Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I didn't find out why the second (third, if we start the count from the women's boots at the very top) picture of high boots was placed where it was placed (opposite the passage saying about textiles).

            >
            > Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
            > specific costume for women that would cover... the
            > period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
            > when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
            > up.
            > I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
            > they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
            > a bit more focused way then they do the later years
            > which they sort of just stick all together.)
            Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific interest. All I have is the well-known book on costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* - can't remember the exact title being at work, here it is often mentioned as a source reliable but rather generalized), there is a chapter about Ukraine.
            Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume, I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported items - as status symbols, especially in late period.

            Bye,
            Alex.
          • Susan Koziel
            ... I just thought I d ask. ... If you manage to dig up the title one of these days that would be great. ... Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 2 8:30 AM
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              --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
              > interest. All I have is the well-known book on
              > costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
              > can't remember the exact title being at work, here
              > it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
              > rather generalized), there is a chapter about
              > Ukraine.

              I just thought I'd ask.
              :)
              If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
              that would be great.

              > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
              > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
              > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
              > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
              > items - as status symbols, especially in late
              > period.

              Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
              such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
              they put the pieces together - and find some primary
              sources from the area as back up.
              Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
              the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
              translation & report how it is as a source.
              ;)
              -Kataryna
            • Lente
              don t know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I don t remember
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 2 9:31 AM
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                don't know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine
                Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I
                don't remember if it goes into how the folk dress developed or not but had
                some wonderful designs and in the last chapter or so it had instructions for
                making a shirt with embroidery. since it is spesicfally on the Ukraine
                embroidery it may be better than the general folk costumes books. Another
                book to maybe look for is called _Costumes of the East_ has a bit of text on
                the balkans, casasus and ukraines region, some line drawings and possibly
                some pictures.

                Kathws

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Susan Koziel" <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
                To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:30 AM
                Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page


                >
                > --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                > wrote:
                >>
                >> Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
                >> interest. All I have is the well-known book on
                >> costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
                >> can't remember the exact title being at work, here
                >> it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
                >> rather generalized), there is a chapter about
                >> Ukraine.
                >
                > I just thought I'd ask.
                > :)
                > If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
                > that would be great.
                >
                >> Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
                >> inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
                >> costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
                >> I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
                >> items - as status symbols, especially in late
                >> period.
                >
                > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
                > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
                > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
                > sources from the area as back up.
                > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
                > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
                > translation & report how it is as a source.
                > ;)
                > -Kataryna
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Rick Orli
                Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men, in the 15th-16th C seems to have
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 2 9:32 AM
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                  Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
                  partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
                  in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
                  tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
                  that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
                  local military fashions as their own, which because common
                  throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
                  the Lithuanians.

                  Generations later it might work more as you say, with the Ukranians
                  following the Polish Commonwealth fashions (that were variants of
                  what was once a Ukraninan fashion). However, they would not have
                  been seen as alien imports, I do not think. Also, if we try to
                  speculate where the 17th C. kontuz fashion came from, a good guess
                  is that it came from fresh influences again from the east, perhaps
                  tatar, and via people who were either Ukranian or serving there.

                  Warning, there is a lot of guesswork in my assertions above! Just
                  my best guess on how things might have gone (but at least I can
                  assure you that I am not a Ukranian nationalism booster.)




                  > > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
                  > > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
                  > > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
                  > > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
                  > > items - as status symbols, especially in late
                  > > period.
                  >
                  > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
                  > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
                  > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
                  > sources from the area as back up.
                  > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
                  > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
                  > translation & report how it is as a source.
                  > ;)
                  > -Kataryna
                • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                  ... Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were roman/byzantine
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 2 9:46 AM
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                    > Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
                    > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
                    > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
                    > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
                    > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
                    > local military fashions as their own, which because common
                    > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
                    > the Lithuanians.

                    Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were
                    Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were
                    roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've seen still show a
                    pretty standard German/Italian influence in the costumes, but with the
                    zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.

                    --
                    -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                    "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a Communist or a
                    Republican." - Karen Schneider
                  • Tim Nalley
                    Got to agree there but differ only slightly in pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 2 10:37 AM
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                      Got to agree there but differ only slightly in
                      pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the
                      dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in
                      the 16C when Stephen Bathory, former prince of
                      Transylvania, was invited to be King of Poland by the
                      Polish Senate, an brought his Haduk soldiers into
                      Cracow and Warsaw in their "eastern fashions". Also,
                      the fashion had started to morph earlier than that as
                      witnessed in the Battle of Orsa" painting which shows
                      Polish riders wearinga mixture of Western fashions
                      populat during the Jagellion Dynasty and eastern
                      fashions popular in Hungary and Ruthenia, popularised
                      by contacts with the Turks after the Battle of Mohacs
                      just a few short years before.
                      'dak
                      --- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                      <jenne@...> wrote:

                      > > Actually, I would put this argument on its head,
                      > at least
                      > > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume,
                      > at least for men,
                      > > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from
                      > Eastern inflences -
                      > > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian.
                      > Specifically, my belief is
                      > > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area
                      > picked up the common
                      > > local military fashions as their own, which
                      > because common
                      > > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles
                      > picked it up from
                      > > the Lithuanians.
                      >
                      > Well, it seems that there was a set of military
                      > fashions that were
                      > Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century
                      > that were
                      > roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've
                      > seen still show a
                      > pretty standard German/Italian influence in the
                      > costumes, but with the
                      > zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.
                      >
                      > --
                      > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                      > jenne@...
                      > "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a
                      > Communist or a
                      > Republican." - Karen Schneider
                      >





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