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Ukraine Costuming page

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  • Susan Koziel
    It s on Ukrainian, but it s some of the pages that went missing in my collection of stuff and now I ve found them again. ... Just thought I d share
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 27 10:06 PM
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      It's on Ukrainian, but it's some of the pages that
      went missing in my collection of stuff and now I've
      found them again.
      :)
      Just thought I'd share
      http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html

      Also if anyone ever translates this page I'd love a
      copy (I can't translate... and my regular translator
      is too busy.)
      :(

      :)
      -Kataryna-Doing-A-Happy-Dance
      PS: Volchok - these are only some of the boots that
      were shown in the pages I lost.
    • Susan Saladini
      -Kataryna said: Just thought I d share http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html Thank you for your post. I am very interested in creating some Ukrainian
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 28 5:56 AM
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        -Kataryna said:



        Just thought I'd share
        http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html





        Thank you for your post. I am very interested in creating some Ukrainian
        garb and an appropriate persona to go with the garb, so this is right up my
        alley. Do you have a date for these pictures? Now I wish that I kept my
        daughter in Ukrainian school so she could translate for me.





        Susan Rae

        susan@...

        www.susan-rae.com





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tim Nalley
        Isn t this a derivative production of the costuming book by Bayda Publishing in Australia? Better drawings but definitely very, very similar. Anyone else
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 28 6:00 AM
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          Isn't this a derivative production of the costuming
          book by Bayda Publishing in Australia? Better drawings
          but definitely very, very similar.
          Anyone else notice the similarity, or am I just
          suffering from caffiene depletion?
          'dok
          --- Susan Koziel <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
          wrote:

          > It's on Ukrainian, but it's some of the pages that
          > went missing in my collection of stuff and now I've
          > found them again.
          > :)
          > Just thought I'd share
          > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html
          >
          > Also if anyone ever translates this page I'd love a
          > copy (I can't translate... and my regular translator
          > is too busy.)
          > :(
          >
          > :)
          > -Kataryna-Doing-A-Happy-Dance
          > PS: Volchok - these are only some of the boots that
          > were shown in the pages I lost.
          >




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        • Susan Koziel
          I ve only ever seen the book in parts (I had a section of it mailed to me via inter library loan a number of years ago.) It could be the same book for all I
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 28 8:58 AM
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            I've only ever seen the book in parts (I had a section
            of it mailed to me via inter library loan a number of
            years ago.) It could be the same book for all I know.
            This is the book description from the nearest library:

            Istori�i`a ukra�ns�koho kost�i`uma

            Personal Author: Nikola�i`eva, T. O. (Tamara
            Oleksandrivna)
            Title: Istori�i`a ukra�ns�koho kost�i`uma / Tamara
            Nikola�i`eva.
            Publication info: Ky�v : "Lybid�", 1996.
            Physical descrip: 171 p. : ill. (some col.) ; 21 cm.

            Subject term: Costume--Ukraine--History.
            Bibliography note: Includes bibliographical
            references (p. [167]-171).
            ISBN: 5325004743

            -Sue

            --- Tim Nalley <mordakus@...> wrote:
            > Isn't this a derivative production of the costuming
            > book by Bayda Publishing in Australia? Better
            > drawings
            > but definitely very, very similar.
            > Anyone else notice the similarity, or am I just
            > suffering from caffiene depletion?
            > 'dok
            > --- Susan Koziel <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > It's on Ukrainian, but it's some of the pages that
            > > went missing in my collection of stuff and now
            > I've
            > > found them again.
            > > :)
            > > Just thought I'd share
            > > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html
            > >
            > > Also if anyone ever translates this page I'd love
            > a
            > > copy (I can't translate... and my regular
            > translator
            > > is too busy.)
            > > :(
            > >
            > > :)
            > > -Kataryna-Doing-A-Happy-Dance
            > > PS: Volchok - these are only some of the boots
            > that
            > > were shown in the pages I lost.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________
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            > Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
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          • Jenna Mitelman
            I could probably get the document translated, but as it s pretty long, that would take quite a bit of time. If I ever get it completed, I will certainly let
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 28 11:23 AM
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              I could probably get the document translated, but as it's pretty long,
              that would take quite a bit of time. If I ever get it completed, I
              will certainly let the list know.

              In the mean time, if anyone would like specific sections of it
              translated, please let me know, and I'll try to get those specifically
              translated for you sooner.
              I can be reached at: Jenna.Mitelman@...

              In service,

              ~Aryenne
            • Susan Koziel
              Hmm sort of... I don t translate, but the date on the title is XIV - XVIII ñò which is 14-18 centuries. I had better dates on my original copies because the
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 28 3:05 PM
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                Hmm sort of...
                I don't translate, but the date on the title is
                XIV - XVIII ��
                which is 14-18 centuries. I had better dates on my
                original copies because the prof who photocopied the
                stuff for me originally had written the info in.
                :(
                I was very sad to find they had gone.
                -Kataryna

                --- Susan Saladini <susan@...> wrote:
                >
                > -Kataryna said:
                >
                >
                >
                > Just thought I'd share
                > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you for your post. I am very interested in
                > creating some Ukrainian
                > garb and an appropriate persona to go with the garb,
                > so this is right up my
                > alley. Do you have a date for these pictures? Now
                > I wish that I kept my
                > daughter in Ukrainian school so she could translate
                > for me.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Susan Rae
                >
                > susan@...
                >
                > www.susan-rae.com
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Susan Koziel
                Hi, the bits that consern womens dress before 1600 are what I m interested in at the moment. Specifically the 1450 to 1550 time span. I don t know if that
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 28 3:14 PM
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                  Hi, the bits that consern womens dress before 1600 are
                  what I'm interested in at the moment. Specifically the
                  1450 to 1550 time span.
                  I don't know if that would help at all, since I can't
                  read the text. I'm actually hoping to have get the
                  book from the libarary again & I'd rather have certian
                  pages of that translated.
                  :)
                  -Kataryna
                  PS: if anyone knows the value of this book as a
                  resource for Ukrainian SCA garb, please tell me... I'd
                  like to stay away from spending time on a bad source.
                • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                  Greetings! ... They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo general review of Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of 14-18 centuries . I do not like it. It dores
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                    Greetings!
                    > Just thought I'd share
                    > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html

                    > Thank you for your post. I am very interested in creating some Ukrainian
                    > garb and an appropriate persona to go with the garb, so this is right up my
                    > alley. Do you have a date for these pictures? Now I wish that I kept my
                    > daughter in Ukrainian school so she could translate for me.
                    They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo general review of "Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of 14-18 centuries". I do not like it. It dores not say what was where, why, or at least, when. Instead, it says "they wore ..., ..., ... . This and this had different variant patterns depending on the region (no naming what teh differences were)". 5\7 of tehg text is city and countryside wear of Ukraine. The rest is the story of what Cossacks looked like. I appreciated the piece where the author pretended to depict the general look, costume and hairdressing of the Cossacks, speaking ONLY of the hairdressing. The most strange notion is that (after extensive review of Ukrainian costume) the Cossacks had two outfits - the working/battle one, called Podly Odyag (low outfit), again no description, and the holiday outfit, consisting of most posh garb, "mainly trophies". Thus, nothing about the Cossacks, the story says about Ukraine traditional wear and about SOME Cossack features.

                    The weakest pouint (but - sorry, I am again stepping on Today's minefield) is that the text pretends to review Ukraine's own dress but the pics show mostly Polish wear (no wonder - remembering who ruled Ukraine in the period mentioned, especially when Lietuva and Poland united), as it was a lower status symbol for those times. The autrhor should have mentioned at least _why_ polish look was considered in-status for Ukraine - but it does vice versa, pretending all that Ukrainians had and wore those centuries, was their original development. How typical of young states... :-(((
                  • Jenna Mitelman
                    Looking at the text more closely, I would have to agree with Alexei that it s not a great resource if you re looking for a reliable source on pre-1600
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                      Looking at the text more closely, I would have to agree with Alexei
                      that it's not a great resource if you're looking for a reliable source
                      on pre-1600 clothing.
                      It's more of a general view of Cossack clothing, beginning at the very
                      end of our period of interest, and going on for a couple of centuries
                      after, which makes makes it not reliable for specifics if you want to
                      say that "I say this here, so it must be *period* for me".
                      I would say it is rather useful if you want to get a general "feel"
                      for the look common in the area, and know nothing about it. But you
                      have to keep in mind the limitations of a text like this for producing
                      something "accurate" to a given time period. You would be fairly
                      likely to get something that is an 18th century variation on garments
                      that existed in your desired time frame, and this text wouldn't really
                      tell you the difference.
                      But for a very generalized look at the area and its general feel,
                      which I think can be useful for some people, it's decent.

                      This is entirely my opinion, so you're welcome to disregard it
                      entirely if you so choose, but you've been warned that there are
                      reservations about this text as an accurate timely source.

                      ~Aryenne
                    • Susan Koziel
                      ... Not really a suprize, I don t think the text is directly from the book... mostly because the pictures are cut apart and placed differently then how they
                      Message 10 of 16 , Mar 1, 2005
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                        --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Greetings!
                        > > Just thought I'd share
                        > > http://sweetukraine.narod.ru/odyag/odyag1.html
                        >
                        > > Thank you for your post. I am very interested in
                        > creating some Ukrainian
                        > > garb and an appropriate persona to go with the
                        > garb, so this is right up my
                        > > alley. Do you have a date for these pictures?
                        > Now I wish that I kept my
                        > > daughter in Ukrainian school so she could
                        > translate for me.
                        > They are not dated. It is a general, toooooooooo
                        > general review of "Zaporozhie Kossacks Costume of
                        > 14-18 centuries".

                        Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
                        directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
                        are cut apart and placed differently then how they
                        were actually placed in the text I had copies from.

                        Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
                        specific costume for women that would cover... the
                        period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
                        when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
                        up.
                        I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
                        they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
                        a bit more focused way then they do the later years
                        which they sort of just stick all together.)
                        -Kataryna
                      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                        Greetings! ... Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I
                        Message 11 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                          Greetings!

                          > Not really a suprize, I don't think the text is
                          > directly from the book... mostly because the pictures
                          > are cut apart and placed differently then how they
                          > were actually placed in the text I had copies from.
                          Actually, the first half of the text has the garb pics where that garb is mentioned. Then there are pics of garb not mentioned at all. Say, I didn't find out why the second (third, if we start the count from the women's boots at the very top) picture of high boots was placed where it was placed (opposite the passage saying about textiles).

                          >
                          > Alexey, do you know of any other books on Ukrainian
                          > specific costume for women that would cover... the
                          > period of late 1400's to mid 1500's. IIRC this was
                          > when the Ukrainian Cossacks were just starting to show
                          > up.
                          > I have a few Ukrainian specific costuming books, but
                          > they are pretty generalized (and cover the 900-1100 in
                          > a bit more focused way then they do the later years
                          > which they sort of just stick all together.)
                          Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific interest. All I have is the well-known book on costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* - can't remember the exact title being at work, here it is often mentioned as a source reliable but rather generalized), there is a chapter about Ukraine.
                          Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume, I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported items - as status symbols, especially in late period.

                          Bye,
                          Alex.
                        • Susan Koziel
                          ... I just thought I d ask. ... If you manage to dig up the title one of these days that would be great. ... Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to
                          Message 12 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                            --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
                            > interest. All I have is the well-known book on
                            > costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
                            > can't remember the exact title being at work, here
                            > it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
                            > rather generalized), there is a chapter about
                            > Ukraine.

                            I just thought I'd ask.
                            :)
                            If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
                            that would be great.

                            > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
                            > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
                            > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
                            > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
                            > items - as status symbols, especially in late
                            > period.

                            Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
                            such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
                            they put the pieces together - and find some primary
                            sources from the area as back up.
                            Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
                            the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
                            translation & report how it is as a source.
                            ;)
                            -Kataryna
                          • Lente
                            don t know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I don t remember
                            Message 13 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                              don't know why but this just reminded me that I saw a book on _Ukraine
                              Embroidery_ that has a bunch of pictures of the more modern folk dress, I
                              don't remember if it goes into how the folk dress developed or not but had
                              some wonderful designs and in the last chapter or so it had instructions for
                              making a shirt with embroidery. since it is spesicfally on the Ukraine
                              embroidery it may be better than the general folk costumes books. Another
                              book to maybe look for is called _Costumes of the East_ has a bit of text on
                              the balkans, casasus and ukraines region, some line drawings and possibly
                              some pictures.

                              Kathws

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Susan Koziel" <kataryna_dragonweaver@...>
                              To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 9:30 AM
                              Subject: Re: Re[4]: [sig] Ukraine Costuming page


                              >
                              > --- Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik <Posadnik@...>
                              > wrote:
                              >>
                              >> Well.... First, Ukraine was never my specific
                              >> interest. All I have is the well-known book on
                              >> costume of Eastern Europe peoples (Moscow, 198* -
                              >> can't remember the exact title being at work, here
                              >> it is often mentioned as a source reliable but
                              >> rather generalized), there is a chapter about
                              >> Ukraine.
                              >
                              > I just thought I'd ask.
                              > :)
                              > If you manage to dig up the title one of these days
                              > that would be great.
                              >
                              >> Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
                              >> inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
                              >> costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
                              >> I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
                              >> items - as status symbols, especially in late
                              >> period.
                              >
                              > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
                              > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
                              > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
                              > sources from the area as back up.
                              > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
                              > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
                              > translation & report how it is as a source.
                              > ;)
                              > -Kataryna
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Rick Orli
                              Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men, in the 15th-16th C seems to have
                              Message 14 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                                Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
                                partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
                                in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
                                tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
                                that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
                                local military fashions as their own, which because common
                                throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
                                the Lithuanians.

                                Generations later it might work more as you say, with the Ukranians
                                following the Polish Commonwealth fashions (that were variants of
                                what was once a Ukraninan fashion). However, they would not have
                                been seen as alien imports, I do not think. Also, if we try to
                                speculate where the 17th C. kontuz fashion came from, a good guess
                                is that it came from fresh influences again from the east, perhaps
                                tatar, and via people who were either Ukranian or serving there.

                                Warning, there is a lot of guesswork in my assertions above! Just
                                my best guess on how things might have gone (but at least I can
                                assure you that I am not a Ukranian nationalism booster.)




                                > > Second, Ukraine, being a Lietuvan-Polish province
                                > > inlate period, had borrowed much from the Polish
                                > > costume. Thus, speaking of wealthy people's costume,
                                > > I'd suggest it could include up to 3/4 of imported
                                > > items - as status symbols, especially in late
                                > > period.
                                >
                                > Yes, I realize that but because the area tended to be
                                > such a mix of cultures I'd kind of like to see how
                                > they put the pieces together - and find some primary
                                > sources from the area as back up.
                                > Anyhow thanks for the info on the webpage, when I get
                                > the real book I'll see what I can do about getting a
                                > translation & report how it is as a source.
                                > ;)
                                > -Kataryna
                              • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                                ... Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were roman/byzantine
                                Message 15 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                                  > Actually, I would put this argument on its head, at least
                                  > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume, at least for men,
                                  > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from Eastern inflences -
                                  > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian. Specifically, my belief is
                                  > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area picked up the common
                                  > local military fashions as their own, which because common
                                  > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles picked it up from
                                  > the Lithuanians.

                                  Well, it seems that there was a set of military fashions that were
                                  Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century that were
                                  roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've seen still show a
                                  pretty standard German/Italian influence in the costumes, but with the
                                  zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.

                                  --
                                  -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                  "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a Communist or a
                                  Republican." - Karen Schneider
                                • Tim Nalley
                                  Got to agree there but differ only slightly in pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in the
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Mar 2, 2005
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                                    Got to agree there but differ only slightly in
                                    pointing out that the Polish fashions embodied in the
                                    dolman, kontusz, etc. were made popular primarily in
                                    the 16C when Stephen Bathory, former prince of
                                    Transylvania, was invited to be King of Poland by the
                                    Polish Senate, an brought his Haduk soldiers into
                                    Cracow and Warsaw in their "eastern fashions". Also,
                                    the fashion had started to morph earlier than that as
                                    witnessed in the Battle of Orsa" painting which shows
                                    Polish riders wearinga mixture of Western fashions
                                    populat during the Jagellion Dynasty and eastern
                                    fashions popular in Hungary and Ruthenia, popularised
                                    by contacts with the Turks after the Battle of Mohacs
                                    just a few short years before.
                                    'dak
                                    --- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                                    <jenne@...> wrote:

                                    > > Actually, I would put this argument on its head,
                                    > at least
                                    > > partially. Polish-Lithuanian fashionable costume,
                                    > at least for men,
                                    > > in the 15th-16th C seems to have originated from
                                    > Eastern inflences -
                                    > > tatar, turk and also perhaps ukranian.
                                    > Specifically, my belief is
                                    > > that the Lituanian rulers in the Ukraine area
                                    > picked up the common
                                    > > local military fashions as their own, which
                                    > because common
                                    > > throughout the grand duchy. Then, later, the Poles
                                    > picked it up from
                                    > > the Lithuanians.
                                    >
                                    > Well, it seems that there was a set of military
                                    > fashions that were
                                    > Eastern-Influenced, and a bunch in the 17th century
                                    > that were
                                    > roman/byzantine influenced, but the pictures I've
                                    > seen still show a
                                    > pretty standard German/Italian influence in the
                                    > costumes, but with the
                                    > zupan-like coat as an additional fashion statement.
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                                    > jenne@...
                                    > "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a
                                    > Communist or a
                                    > Republican." - Karen Schneider
                                    >





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