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Re: All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers

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  • pniedrich
    Hello Pat here from SlavicReconstructionist list, ... **I don t necessarily see it as *highjacked*. One person gave his opinion, and many may not have agreed
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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      Hello Pat here from SlavicReconstructionist list,

      > At 01:12 AM 2/26/2005 +0000, you wrote:
      > > > It's a shame this conference apparently was hijacked by those
      > >forces.

      **I don't necessarily see it as *highjacked*. One person gave his
      opinion, and many may not have agreed with that! (but you'll never
      hear that side of the story.)

      > >Did you see something positive in all tha stuff?

      **Yes, an alternative to Christianity, and Western Neopaganism, for
      those involved! Is not a return to ones' native faiths for those
      that wish this, a good thing? Ask many Teutonic Asatruar, or Baltic
      Romuvaite, or Hellenismos Reconstructionist Pagans, go to
      http://www.wcer.org for more information. That would be the World
      Council of Ethnic Religions.
      Our movement here in N. America has been a little slower, but it is
      catching on.


      > I tend to feel (others may chime in on this of course) that any
      interest in studying a topic, especially one that gets ignored, is
      a good thing.

      **It may be ignored here, but not on my
      list...SlavicReconstructionist.


      > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so
      cooptated by nationalists.

      **First of all, "Paganism" is not the word that they like to
      use. "Native believers" is more correct. "Paganism" is OUR word to
      describe a modern system, one that has connotations of a thing that
      has a negative focus. In many of the terms, (and it differs from
      nationality to nationality) the most you will find is "Wiara", which
      is "way".
      *ROD* is also the name of the God that looks out for the heritage of
      his people, so "Rodna Wiara" is used as well.
      *Jazyk" from *Jazychestwo" or (*y* as appropriate in some Slavic
      languages). So, as one who believes in the Native faith, I would be
      a "Jazyk".

      From the Ukrainian Native faith believers on wcer.org:

      Ukrainian heathenism is a generic term referring to the national
      religion of our Ukrainian ancestors 1000 years ago, prior to
      Christianity, and which is now enjoying a revival in Ukraine.

      We reject the term Paganism imposed by the Christian priests, as the
      Latin paganus has a negative connotation in the Ukrainian language,
      suggesting bad, in Ukrainian pohany. In the English language, we use
      the transcription Yazychnystvo and the full name Confession of the
      Ukrainian Native Faith Pravo -

      The name Pravoslavya, originally an ancient heathen term, was
      adopted by the Christian Orthodox church to deceive the faithful
      during the first centuries following conversion to the Christian
      religion. Prav means peace of Gods and the Divine Law.

      Slavya is a ceremonial divine heathen service, as well as the name
      of the Godess Slava. Thus, the term means the laudation of the Gods."


      In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to left-wing
      > revolutionary types.

      **Where did you ever get this idea? For some, it may be true, but
      this is not the case at all anymore. The 60's version of Paganism is
      pretty much a joke even IN the Neopagan community now. Sure, many
      people there may have liberal leanings, (I don't personally, you'll
      find many Asatruar with those same feelings)many don't.
      We don't run around a fireplace naked, engage in sex parties, etc.
      That's a myth, and for many in the neopagan faiths as well. (Wicca,
      which has as it's origins being "Celt-based").

      What we are are just like most of you. We get up every day and go to
      work. We pay our bills, we hold an ancestral faith. We don't have
      time whilst raising children to go off and have what people would
      consider *wild times*, while having to meet bills, PTA meetings,
      pick up the car at the shop, et. al.
      We may meet once a month or so, and have a horn of mead to share
      with kin, Ancestors and Gods. We observe a cycle of the year, that
      is based on agriculture. We hold many beliefs, but many are NOT anti-
      Jewish. We are too busy with our lives to meddle in that.
      (also, don't get the idea that *Anti-Zionist* means *Anti-Jewish*,
      they are NOT the SAME THING.)
      On my list, we have Jews,(Ashkenazim) and Cygani(Gysies). We welcome
      them as they are a part of our Slavic communities, we lived by them
      over the course of our history, some may be *kin* but many are not,
      however, they are neighbors, and that is fine for us.

      We do not tolerate racism, as my front page states, as we do not
      build up OUR faith by tearing down those of others. I do not have
      problems with individual Christians, however, we do have some
      issues with the POLITICS of the Christian faiths toward us, and our
      rights to coexist on our Native soils.

      If there are any further questions, please feel free to ask here or
      off-list, or come visit us on our list, you can see the archives
      there for yourself, and *SEE* if there is any hatred of Jews, et.
      al. We do a good job of policing the community, just like any
      community of ANY sort of belief, you can have *bad apples*.

      I thank the list moderator for her indulgence of my post, and hope
      that I may have shed some light on these previous queries and
      comments.

      Patricia Majewska Niedrich
      SlavicReconstructionist list
      http://group.yahoo.com/group/SlavicReconstructionist
    • stiobhard
      ... cooptated by ... left-wing ... i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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        > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so
        cooptated by
        > nationalists. In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to
        left-wing
        > revolutionary types.
        >
        > -- Paul

        i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups
        have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist groups to the
        point that these far right groups are outwardly using german runes and
        such to represent their cause. (not to say that all germanic groups
        are fascist but people are aware of the association.)

        there seems to be a nationalist element even within the more british
        forms of neopaganism which may not be as blatant but still there to
        some degree. and people in that camp have said things that equally
        make me wonder. its also true that celtic nationalism often attracts
        the likes of the national front in england.

        that said i think it is quite justified to make the criticism that
        paul remarked on. especially in a region of the world where this is a
        major political problem.

        stiobhard
      • pniedrich
        ... groups have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist groups to the point that these far right groups are outwardly using german runes and such to
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "stiobhard" <stiobhard@y...> wrote:
          >> i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan
          groups have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist groups
          to the point that these far right groups are outwardly using german
          runes and such to represent their cause. (not to say that all
          germanic groups are fascist but people are aware of the association.)

          **First, of all, many Asatruar/Teutonic Heathens would probably
          cringe at you calling them "Neopagan", as this is usually reserved,
          in the mindset of many of them, for the crystal-hugging fluff
          bunnies that seem to come out of the New age movement. (who have no
          mind, like the many good people here do, to crack open a history
          book and do solid research.)
          The term "Neo" also defines that there is a 'new" aspect of ideas,
          worship, etc. where there WAS a heritage of organizations from the
          1800's or thereabouts to understand the folk-faiths of their
          peoples. (this happened all over Europe)

          This was known in some format as the "Romantic era" in Europe, and
          led to gains in publishing houses, Viking-style artforms, Thule
          societies, Goth societies and it's numerous offshoots (founded in
          1811), and music (Wagner), Translation of Icelandic sagas, (William
          Morris) as well as the Arts and Crafts movement, (which many
          Heathens credit as an acknowledgement of a folk-based awareness of
          their people's heritage in every aspect of the "guild" society. The
          roots of modern Asatru are generations longer than many types of
          Protestantism, reformed Judaism, Mormonism, Bahai, but you won't
          refer to these faiths as "neo" since they have split from the
          original format of their faiths, whether Byzantine Christianity, for
          instance. Saying "neo" denies Asatru's heritage,implies it began in
          the 70's as a counter-culture hippy rebellion that now has been
          hijacked by skinheads. The term "neo" is an insult that one would
          not apply to newer religions.

          > there seems to be a nationalist element even within the more
          british forms of neopaganism which may not be as blatant but still
          there to some degree. and people in that camp have said things that
          equally make me wonder. its also true that celtic nationalism often
          attracts the likes of the national front in england.


          **I am not denying that there are some skinhead elements in these
          folkfaiths, but N. American Asatruar (my husband being a Gothi in
          Chicago for over 25 years)do a good job in policing out that
          particular element in question. There are people that look at
          immigration now to the countries in question, and use the faith as a
          way to hammer what they feel are intruders in their land. They are
          mistaken, just as Hitler was mistaken for taking the folk faith of
          the Germanic peoples as a way to co-opt his agendas. That does not
          make the faith INCORRECT or WRONG for the Germanic peoples, it makes
          them work harder to teach people exactly WHAT their people have
          stood for. The Teutonic peoples are a wonderfully mixed lot, and for
          every skinhead, I would also show you a green party member, or a
          worker in a peace or environmental movement. I myself have some
          Germanic heritage, my birth father's family was descended from Amish
          stock.

          > that said i think it is quite justified to make the criticism that
          > paul remarked on. especially in a region of the world where this
          is a major political problem.

          *I disagree. Again, a *FEW* bad apples should NOT define what is a
          GOOD and wholesome movement. By your definition, then, Christianity
          should be defined thusly, as it has definitely had a history of
          being an oppressor of non-Christians, a co-opter of land, territory
          and riches to amass gains to further it's political aims; and
          destroying the folkfaiths and culture of many of the peoples of this
          earth. I view this as a major political problem.

          We must learn to listen to each other, and learn acceptance. When
          their is peace in your heart, there is balance in action, and
          harmony is the result. To act in mistrust, is to be off-balance.
          Thanks for letting me speak to this issue.

          Patricia Majewska Niedrich/Chicago

          > stiobhard
        • krofnic
          ... participating... ...... Excellent low profile dissection. But, in the world of Prav, this event is of enormous importance. Zhivosila i Silan
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Millar" <alastair@i...> wrote:
            >
            > I was interested by the reference to the Czech group
            participating...
            ......

            Excellent low profile dissection. But, in the world of Prav, this
            event is of enormous importance.

            Zhivosila i Silan
          • krofnic
            ... Do you believe that humans can spiritually control or influence natural forces? Zhivosila i Silan
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "stiobhard" <stiobhard@y...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so
              > cooptated by
              > > nationalists. In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to
              > left-wing
              > > revolutionary types.
              > >
              > > -- Paul
              >
              > i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups
              > ...

              Do you believe that humans can spiritually control or influence
              natural forces?

              Zhivosila i Silan
            • Paul W. Goldschmidt
              ... I think we re getting off topic here. This group is for the research of Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of religion and faith may
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                At 03:59 PM 2/27/2005 +0000, you wrote:
                > > i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups
                > > ...
                >
                >Do you believe that humans can spiritually control or influence
                >natural forces?

                I think we're getting off topic here. This group is for the research of
                Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of religion and
                faith may be a part of that discussion, can we rein this thread back to the
                topic of the list (and move the questions of theology elsewhere)?

                Thanks,
                Paul
              • krofnic
                ... research of ... religion and ... back to the ... kicking us out of the forum? ... Zhivosila and Silan
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                  > I think we're getting off topic here. This group is for the
                  research of
                  > Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of
                  religion and
                  > faith may be a part of that discussion, can we rein this thread
                  back to the
                  > topic of the list (and move the questions of theology elsewhere)?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  > Paul

                  kicking us out of the forum?

                  :(

                  Zhivosila and Silan
                • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                  ... No, I m not the moderator. I m just saying that we are now off-topic.
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                    At 08:57 PM 2/27/2005 +0000, you wrote:
                    > > I think we're getting off topic here. This group is for the
                    >research of
                    > > Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of
                    >religion and
                    > > faith may be a part of that discussion, can we rein this thread
                    >back to the
                    > > topic of the list (and move the questions of theology elsewhere)?
                    >
                    >kicking us out of the forum?
                    >
                    >:(
                    >
                    >Zhivosila and Silan

                    No, I'm not the moderator. I'm just saying that we are now off-topic.
                  • Jenn
                    ... Actually, as moderator, that s *my* decision, which is made on the basis of what feedback I get from the group members. From the FAQ: ** What can I talk
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                      > kicking us out of the forum?
                      >
                      > :(
                      >
                      > Zhivosila and Silan

                      Actually, as moderator, that's *my* decision, which is made on the
                      basis of what feedback I get from the group members.

                      From the FAQ:

                      ** What can I talk about here on SIG-L?
                      Anything relating to pre-1650 CE (approximately) Slavic or Eastern or
                      Central European history and culture or anything Slavic, Eastern
                      European or Central European as it pertains to the SCA is welcome
                      here. Sometimes we talk about modern subjects, which is okay as long
                      as we generally stay on topic.

                      ** What is not permitted on the list?
                      a) Personal Flamewars. Debating a subject is fine, heated argument
                      is not.
                      b) Personal Attacks/Rudeness. Attack the argument, not the author.
                      c) Ethnic and Regional insults. This is absolutely not acceptable here.

                      Generally, we want you to stick to pre-17th century discussion on
                      religious and cultural matters and refrain from anything inflammatory.
                      If a discussion gets too heated, then I officially kill the thread
                      and no one is allowed to discuss it further, at least on this List.
                      After all, that's why I'm (partly) called "Yana Groznaia."

                      The All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers is a modern group
                      that is interested in historical Slavic practices. We can discuss
                      those historical practices, but I'd rather we didn't talk about the
                      modern politics. There are other groups for that.

                      For now; that is all.
                      --Yana the Terrible
                    • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                      Greetings! ... ???????????????????????? French National Front is left-wing revolutionary type ???? Skinheads using the pagan symbol, Celtic Cross, is one? Any
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                        Greetings!

                        > > > It's a shame this conference apparently was hijacked by those
                        > >forces.
                        > >
                        > >Did you see something positive in all tha stuff?
                        >
                        > I tend to feel (others may chime in on this of course) that any interest in
                        > studying a topic, especially one that gets ignored, is a good thing.
                        >
                        > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so cooptated by
                        > nationalists. In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to left-wing
                        > revolutionary types.
                        ????????????????????????
                        French National Front is "left-wing revolutionary type"????
                        Skinheads using the pagan symbol, Celtic Cross, is one?

                        Any country uses conservative notions for right-wingers.

                        Bye,
                        Alex.
                      • krofnic
                        ... really terrible! :) Zhivosila i Silan
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                          <snip>
                          >
                          > For now; that is all.
                          > --Yana the Terrible


                          really terrible! :)

                          Zhivosila i Silan
                        • krofnic
                          ... topic. We do believe that the human is a fine balance between spirit and materia and that it is not always evolutive to separate that two aspects. We are
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                            > No, I'm not the moderator. I'm just saying that we are now off-
                            topic.

                            We do believe that the human is a fine balance between spirit and
                            materia and that it is not always evolutive to separate that two
                            aspects. We are trying to give some higher profile to tihs
                            discussion, that's all! :)

                            Zhivosila i Silan
                          • Jeff Smith
                            All: I m not interested in nor comfortable with discussing modern religious practices and neo-paganism. I m going NO MAIL until this discussion is over.
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                              All:

                              I'm not interested in nor comfortable with discussing modern religious practices and neo-paganism. I'm going NO MAIL until this discussion is over.

                              Barcsi Janos

                              sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                              Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:14:23 -0000
                              From: "Jenn"
                              Subject: Re: All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers

                              Generally, we want you to stick to pre-17th century discussion on religious and cultural matters and refrain from anything inflammatory. If a discussion gets too heated, then I officially kill the thread and no one is allowed to discuss it further, at least on this List. After all, that's why I'm (partly) called "Yana Groznaia."

                              The All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers is a modern group that is interested in historical Slavic practices. We can discuss those historical practices, but I'd rather we didn't talk about the modern politics. There are other groups for that.

                              For now; that is all.
                              --Yana the Terrible


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Alastair Millar
                              krofnic writes ... Nevertheless, as has already been made clear, this is NOT the right place to talk about current religious practices. Two points in regard to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 2, 2005
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                                krofnic writes

                                > We do believe that [snip]

                                Nevertheless, as has already been made clear, this is NOT the right
                                place to talk about current religious practices.

                                Two points in regard to this, and to counter the obvious arguments:

                                1. I do not believe that the modern version of the Slavic pagan/native
                                religion is the same as the medieval... in the same was as I do not
                                believe that modern Catholicism is the same as medieval Catholicism.
                                Entirely different beasts.

                                2. Current religious practice is NOT the same as re-enactment of ancient
                                religious practice, however similar the two may be (and I'm thinking
                                here in particular of that Czech group, where joining requires adoption
                                of an "ancient Slavic name" - sound familiar, anyone? - and the fact
                                that some people/speakers in the photographs of the Ukrainian meeting
                                were in "folk dress").

                                > We are trying to give some higher profile to tihs
                                > discussion, that's all! :)

                                What you will achieve, however, is an argument.

                                Alastair

                                Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
                                = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =

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