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Re: All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers

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  • krofnic
    Concerning the hijacking of Slavic original pre-christianic faith, it started with spreading of Christianity in Slavic countries. Even the official name of
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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      Concerning " the hijacking" of Slavic original
      pre-christianic faith,
      it started with spreading of Christianity in Slavic countries. Even
      the official name of orthodox Christianity – Pravoslavlye (means
      :
      Glorification of Prav – the upper world where Slavic Gods live)
      was
      hijacked. 99% of today's orthodox saint's day are stolen from
      our
      native faith and used to enforce the assumption of cleric's power
      over normal people.

      Zhivosila i Silan
    • pniedrich
      Hello Pat here from SlavicReconstructionist list, ... **I don t necessarily see it as *highjacked*. One person gave his opinion, and many may not have agreed
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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        Hello Pat here from SlavicReconstructionist list,

        > At 01:12 AM 2/26/2005 +0000, you wrote:
        > > > It's a shame this conference apparently was hijacked by those
        > >forces.

        **I don't necessarily see it as *highjacked*. One person gave his
        opinion, and many may not have agreed with that! (but you'll never
        hear that side of the story.)

        > >Did you see something positive in all tha stuff?

        **Yes, an alternative to Christianity, and Western Neopaganism, for
        those involved! Is not a return to ones' native faiths for those
        that wish this, a good thing? Ask many Teutonic Asatruar, or Baltic
        Romuvaite, or Hellenismos Reconstructionist Pagans, go to
        http://www.wcer.org for more information. That would be the World
        Council of Ethnic Religions.
        Our movement here in N. America has been a little slower, but it is
        catching on.


        > I tend to feel (others may chime in on this of course) that any
        interest in studying a topic, especially one that gets ignored, is
        a good thing.

        **It may be ignored here, but not on my
        list...SlavicReconstructionist.


        > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so
        cooptated by nationalists.

        **First of all, "Paganism" is not the word that they like to
        use. "Native believers" is more correct. "Paganism" is OUR word to
        describe a modern system, one that has connotations of a thing that
        has a negative focus. In many of the terms, (and it differs from
        nationality to nationality) the most you will find is "Wiara", which
        is "way".
        *ROD* is also the name of the God that looks out for the heritage of
        his people, so "Rodna Wiara" is used as well.
        *Jazyk" from *Jazychestwo" or (*y* as appropriate in some Slavic
        languages). So, as one who believes in the Native faith, I would be
        a "Jazyk".

        From the Ukrainian Native faith believers on wcer.org:

        Ukrainian heathenism is a generic term referring to the national
        religion of our Ukrainian ancestors 1000 years ago, prior to
        Christianity, and which is now enjoying a revival in Ukraine.

        We reject the term Paganism imposed by the Christian priests, as the
        Latin paganus has a negative connotation in the Ukrainian language,
        suggesting bad, in Ukrainian pohany. In the English language, we use
        the transcription Yazychnystvo and the full name Confession of the
        Ukrainian Native Faith Pravo -

        The name Pravoslavya, originally an ancient heathen term, was
        adopted by the Christian Orthodox church to deceive the faithful
        during the first centuries following conversion to the Christian
        religion. Prav means peace of Gods and the Divine Law.

        Slavya is a ceremonial divine heathen service, as well as the name
        of the Godess Slava. Thus, the term means the laudation of the Gods."


        In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to left-wing
        > revolutionary types.

        **Where did you ever get this idea? For some, it may be true, but
        this is not the case at all anymore. The 60's version of Paganism is
        pretty much a joke even IN the Neopagan community now. Sure, many
        people there may have liberal leanings, (I don't personally, you'll
        find many Asatruar with those same feelings)many don't.
        We don't run around a fireplace naked, engage in sex parties, etc.
        That's a myth, and for many in the neopagan faiths as well. (Wicca,
        which has as it's origins being "Celt-based").

        What we are are just like most of you. We get up every day and go to
        work. We pay our bills, we hold an ancestral faith. We don't have
        time whilst raising children to go off and have what people would
        consider *wild times*, while having to meet bills, PTA meetings,
        pick up the car at the shop, et. al.
        We may meet once a month or so, and have a horn of mead to share
        with kin, Ancestors and Gods. We observe a cycle of the year, that
        is based on agriculture. We hold many beliefs, but many are NOT anti-
        Jewish. We are too busy with our lives to meddle in that.
        (also, don't get the idea that *Anti-Zionist* means *Anti-Jewish*,
        they are NOT the SAME THING.)
        On my list, we have Jews,(Ashkenazim) and Cygani(Gysies). We welcome
        them as they are a part of our Slavic communities, we lived by them
        over the course of our history, some may be *kin* but many are not,
        however, they are neighbors, and that is fine for us.

        We do not tolerate racism, as my front page states, as we do not
        build up OUR faith by tearing down those of others. I do not have
        problems with individual Christians, however, we do have some
        issues with the POLITICS of the Christian faiths toward us, and our
        rights to coexist on our Native soils.

        If there are any further questions, please feel free to ask here or
        off-list, or come visit us on our list, you can see the archives
        there for yourself, and *SEE* if there is any hatred of Jews, et.
        al. We do a good job of policing the community, just like any
        community of ANY sort of belief, you can have *bad apples*.

        I thank the list moderator for her indulgence of my post, and hope
        that I may have shed some light on these previous queries and
        comments.

        Patricia Majewska Niedrich
        SlavicReconstructionist list
        http://group.yahoo.com/group/SlavicReconstructionist
      • stiobhard
        ... cooptated by ... left-wing ... i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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          > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so
          cooptated by
          > nationalists. In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to
          left-wing
          > revolutionary types.
          >
          > -- Paul

          i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups
          have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist groups to the
          point that these far right groups are outwardly using german runes and
          such to represent their cause. (not to say that all germanic groups
          are fascist but people are aware of the association.)

          there seems to be a nationalist element even within the more british
          forms of neopaganism which may not be as blatant but still there to
          some degree. and people in that camp have said things that equally
          make me wonder. its also true that celtic nationalism often attracts
          the likes of the national front in england.

          that said i think it is quite justified to make the criticism that
          paul remarked on. especially in a region of the world where this is a
          major political problem.

          stiobhard
        • pniedrich
          ... groups have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist groups to the point that these far right groups are outwardly using german runes and such to
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 26, 2005
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            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "stiobhard" <stiobhard@y...> wrote:
            >> i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan
            groups have a well known contact with neo fascist/nationalist groups
            to the point that these far right groups are outwardly using german
            runes and such to represent their cause. (not to say that all
            germanic groups are fascist but people are aware of the association.)

            **First, of all, many Asatruar/Teutonic Heathens would probably
            cringe at you calling them "Neopagan", as this is usually reserved,
            in the mindset of many of them, for the crystal-hugging fluff
            bunnies that seem to come out of the New age movement. (who have no
            mind, like the many good people here do, to crack open a history
            book and do solid research.)
            The term "Neo" also defines that there is a 'new" aspect of ideas,
            worship, etc. where there WAS a heritage of organizations from the
            1800's or thereabouts to understand the folk-faiths of their
            peoples. (this happened all over Europe)

            This was known in some format as the "Romantic era" in Europe, and
            led to gains in publishing houses, Viking-style artforms, Thule
            societies, Goth societies and it's numerous offshoots (founded in
            1811), and music (Wagner), Translation of Icelandic sagas, (William
            Morris) as well as the Arts and Crafts movement, (which many
            Heathens credit as an acknowledgement of a folk-based awareness of
            their people's heritage in every aspect of the "guild" society. The
            roots of modern Asatru are generations longer than many types of
            Protestantism, reformed Judaism, Mormonism, Bahai, but you won't
            refer to these faiths as "neo" since they have split from the
            original format of their faiths, whether Byzantine Christianity, for
            instance. Saying "neo" denies Asatru's heritage,implies it began in
            the 70's as a counter-culture hippy rebellion that now has been
            hijacked by skinheads. The term "neo" is an insult that one would
            not apply to newer religions.

            > there seems to be a nationalist element even within the more
            british forms of neopaganism which may not be as blatant but still
            there to some degree. and people in that camp have said things that
            equally make me wonder. its also true that celtic nationalism often
            attracts the likes of the national front in england.


            **I am not denying that there are some skinhead elements in these
            folkfaiths, but N. American Asatruar (my husband being a Gothi in
            Chicago for over 25 years)do a good job in policing out that
            particular element in question. There are people that look at
            immigration now to the countries in question, and use the faith as a
            way to hammer what they feel are intruders in their land. They are
            mistaken, just as Hitler was mistaken for taking the folk faith of
            the Germanic peoples as a way to co-opt his agendas. That does not
            make the faith INCORRECT or WRONG for the Germanic peoples, it makes
            them work harder to teach people exactly WHAT their people have
            stood for. The Teutonic peoples are a wonderfully mixed lot, and for
            every skinhead, I would also show you a green party member, or a
            worker in a peace or environmental movement. I myself have some
            Germanic heritage, my birth father's family was descended from Amish
            stock.

            > that said i think it is quite justified to make the criticism that
            > paul remarked on. especially in a region of the world where this
            is a major political problem.

            *I disagree. Again, a *FEW* bad apples should NOT define what is a
            GOOD and wholesome movement. By your definition, then, Christianity
            should be defined thusly, as it has definitely had a history of
            being an oppressor of non-Christians, a co-opter of land, territory
            and riches to amass gains to further it's political aims; and
            destroying the folkfaiths and culture of many of the peoples of this
            earth. I view this as a major political problem.

            We must learn to listen to each other, and learn acceptance. When
            their is peace in your heart, there is balance in action, and
            harmony is the result. To act in mistrust, is to be off-balance.
            Thanks for letting me speak to this issue.

            Patricia Majewska Niedrich/Chicago

            > stiobhard
          • krofnic
            ... participating... ...... Excellent low profile dissection. But, in the world of Prav, this event is of enormous importance. Zhivosila i Silan
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Millar" <alastair@i...> wrote:
              >
              > I was interested by the reference to the Czech group
              participating...
              ......

              Excellent low profile dissection. But, in the world of Prav, this
              event is of enormous importance.

              Zhivosila i Silan
            • krofnic
              ... Do you believe that humans can spiritually control or influence natural forces? Zhivosila i Silan
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "stiobhard" <stiobhard@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so
                > cooptated by
                > > nationalists. In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to
                > left-wing
                > > revolutionary types.
                > >
                > > -- Paul
                >
                > i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups
                > ...

                Do you believe that humans can spiritually control or influence
                natural forces?

                Zhivosila i Silan
              • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                ... I think we re getting off topic here. This group is for the research of Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of religion and faith may
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                  At 03:59 PM 2/27/2005 +0000, you wrote:
                  > > i would have to point out that germanic/scandinavian neopagan groups
                  > > ...
                  >
                  >Do you believe that humans can spiritually control or influence
                  >natural forces?

                  I think we're getting off topic here. This group is for the research of
                  Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of religion and
                  faith may be a part of that discussion, can we rein this thread back to the
                  topic of the list (and move the questions of theology elsewhere)?

                  Thanks,
                  Paul
                • krofnic
                  ... research of ... religion and ... back to the ... kicking us out of the forum? ... Zhivosila and Silan
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                    > I think we're getting off topic here. This group is for the
                    research of
                    > Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of
                    religion and
                    > faith may be a part of that discussion, can we rein this thread
                    back to the
                    > topic of the list (and move the questions of theology elsewhere)?
                    >
                    > Thanks,
                    > Paul

                    kicking us out of the forum?

                    :(

                    Zhivosila and Silan
                  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                    ... No, I m not the moderator. I m just saying that we are now off-topic.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                      At 08:57 PM 2/27/2005 +0000, you wrote:
                      > > I think we're getting off topic here. This group is for the
                      >research of
                      > > Slavic and East European history. While some discussion of
                      >religion and
                      > > faith may be a part of that discussion, can we rein this thread
                      >back to the
                      > > topic of the list (and move the questions of theology elsewhere)?
                      >
                      >kicking us out of the forum?
                      >
                      >:(
                      >
                      >Zhivosila and Silan

                      No, I'm not the moderator. I'm just saying that we are now off-topic.
                    • Jenn
                      ... Actually, as moderator, that s *my* decision, which is made on the basis of what feedback I get from the group members. From the FAQ: ** What can I talk
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 27, 2005
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                        > kicking us out of the forum?
                        >
                        > :(
                        >
                        > Zhivosila and Silan

                        Actually, as moderator, that's *my* decision, which is made on the
                        basis of what feedback I get from the group members.

                        From the FAQ:

                        ** What can I talk about here on SIG-L?
                        Anything relating to pre-1650 CE (approximately) Slavic or Eastern or
                        Central European history and culture or anything Slavic, Eastern
                        European or Central European as it pertains to the SCA is welcome
                        here. Sometimes we talk about modern subjects, which is okay as long
                        as we generally stay on topic.

                        ** What is not permitted on the list?
                        a) Personal Flamewars. Debating a subject is fine, heated argument
                        is not.
                        b) Personal Attacks/Rudeness. Attack the argument, not the author.
                        c) Ethnic and Regional insults. This is absolutely not acceptable here.

                        Generally, we want you to stick to pre-17th century discussion on
                        religious and cultural matters and refrain from anything inflammatory.
                        If a discussion gets too heated, then I officially kill the thread
                        and no one is allowed to discuss it further, at least on this List.
                        After all, that's why I'm (partly) called "Yana Groznaia."

                        The All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers is a modern group
                        that is interested in historical Slavic practices. We can discuss
                        those historical practices, but I'd rather we didn't talk about the
                        modern politics. There are other groups for that.

                        For now; that is all.
                        --Yana the Terrible
                      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                        Greetings! ... ???????????????????????? French National Front is left-wing revolutionary type ???? Skinheads using the pagan symbol, Celtic Cross, is one? Any
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                          Greetings!

                          > > > It's a shame this conference apparently was hijacked by those
                          > >forces.
                          > >
                          > >Did you see something positive in all tha stuff?
                          >
                          > I tend to feel (others may chime in on this of course) that any interest in
                          > studying a topic, especially one that gets ignored, is a good thing.
                          >
                          > It does fascinate me the way that Slavic Paganism has been so cooptated by
                          > nationalists. In the West, Paganism is largely marginalized to left-wing
                          > revolutionary types.
                          ????????????????????????
                          French National Front is "left-wing revolutionary type"????
                          Skinheads using the pagan symbol, Celtic Cross, is one?

                          Any country uses conservative notions for right-wingers.

                          Bye,
                          Alex.
                        • krofnic
                          ... really terrible! :) Zhivosila i Silan
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                            <snip>
                            >
                            > For now; that is all.
                            > --Yana the Terrible


                            really terrible! :)

                            Zhivosila i Silan
                          • krofnic
                            ... topic. We do believe that the human is a fine balance between spirit and materia and that it is not always evolutive to separate that two aspects. We are
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                              > No, I'm not the moderator. I'm just saying that we are now off-
                              topic.

                              We do believe that the human is a fine balance between spirit and
                              materia and that it is not always evolutive to separate that two
                              aspects. We are trying to give some higher profile to tihs
                              discussion, that's all! :)

                              Zhivosila i Silan
                            • Jeff Smith
                              All: I m not interested in nor comfortable with discussing modern religious practices and neo-paganism. I m going NO MAIL until this discussion is over.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 28, 2005
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                                All:

                                I'm not interested in nor comfortable with discussing modern religious practices and neo-paganism. I'm going NO MAIL until this discussion is over.

                                Barcsi Janos

                                sig@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:14:23 -0000
                                From: "Jenn"
                                Subject: Re: All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers

                                Generally, we want you to stick to pre-17th century discussion on religious and cultural matters and refrain from anything inflammatory. If a discussion gets too heated, then I officially kill the thread and no one is allowed to discuss it further, at least on this List. After all, that's why I'm (partly) called "Yana Groznaia."

                                The All-Slavic Council Of Native Faith Believers is a modern group that is interested in historical Slavic practices. We can discuss those historical practices, but I'd rather we didn't talk about the modern politics. There are other groups for that.

                                For now; that is all.
                                --Yana the Terrible


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Alastair Millar
                                krofnic writes ... Nevertheless, as has already been made clear, this is NOT the right place to talk about current religious practices. Two points in regard to
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 2, 2005
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                                  krofnic writes

                                  > We do believe that [snip]

                                  Nevertheless, as has already been made clear, this is NOT the right
                                  place to talk about current religious practices.

                                  Two points in regard to this, and to counter the obvious arguments:

                                  1. I do not believe that the modern version of the Slavic pagan/native
                                  religion is the same as the medieval... in the same was as I do not
                                  believe that modern Catholicism is the same as medieval Catholicism.
                                  Entirely different beasts.

                                  2. Current religious practice is NOT the same as re-enactment of ancient
                                  religious practice, however similar the two may be (and I'm thinking
                                  here in particular of that Czech group, where joining requires adoption
                                  of an "ancient Slavic name" - sound familiar, anyone? - and the fact
                                  that some people/speakers in the photographs of the Ukrainian meeting
                                  were in "folk dress").

                                  > We are trying to give some higher profile to tihs
                                  > discussion, that's all! :)

                                  What you will achieve, however, is an argument.

                                  Alastair

                                  Alastair Millar BSc(Hons) - http://www.skriptorium.info
                                  = Translation & consultancy for the heritage industry =

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