Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Re[2]: Fwd: Re: [sig] Russian Cooking

Expand Messages
  • Jenna Mitelman
    I double checked the Pokhlebkin book that Alexey had referenced, and indeed, it does state that the making of creme and butter were almost unknown up until the
    Message 1 of 15 , Feb 14, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      I double checked the Pokhlebkin book that Alexey had referenced, and
      indeed, it does state that the making of creme and butter were almost
      unknown up until the XIXth century.

      However, I'm puzzled by 2 other statements in the same book, given the
      above claim.

      At one point, a bit earlier in the book, Pokhlebkin writes that
      different "butters" or "oils" (depends on how you read the word - no
      problems there) were used, *primarily plant-based ones*. The way the
      word "oils"/"butters" is being used, it really doesn't sound like it
      could mean pork fat (salo), beef fat, or other animal fats, so I don't
      understand the meaning of *primarily* vegetable "oils" is butter was
      unavailable. Sure, it might have been rare, but if it was unavailable
      completely, I don't see why say "primarily", or what he might be
      referring to as the other, non-vegetable, options. The way "oils" is
      being used also really doesn't sound like he could be referring to
      sour cream, so I'm quite confused by that statement.

      The other statement that confuses me even more also comes from the
      same book, from his discussion on kashas. He says that for since
      ancient times (which he generally uses throughout the book to mean
      pre-17th century), crumbly kashas were made with "creme-based [read:
      dairy] and molten butters/oils" and also a list of some plant-based
      oils that could also be used. The plant oils are made to sound
      secondary, and certainly not exclusive.
      (For those of you who can read Russian, the quote is: "Для рассыпчатых
      каш исстари использовали сливочное и топлёное масла, а из растительных
      – подсолнечное, конопляное, маковое, ореховое, в том числе и
      миндальное.")

      I have a hard time understanding how it could be both that
      butter-making was unknown, and yet butter was used. And I simply can't
      find a different way of reading these 2 statements. The words the
      author uses don't seem to me to be readable in any way other than to
      imply either butter or oil, but certainly not animal fats.
      There was very little importing pre-17th century, and certainly not of
      something like butter, so I'm simply puzzled here.

      Anyone have a way of reading these that might make sense, or somehow
      explain where they might have gotten butter if they didn't make it?
      (Pokhlebkin says that the *making* of creme and butter was unknown,
      which technically does not rule out their use, but I simply don't see
      how it might have been possible).

      Oh, and Yana, since you asked for the title of the book in Russian, it
      is: "Кухни наших народов", and I'm referring specifically to the
      section titled "Русская и советская кухни." (In case the Russian font
      doesn't come out, the book title is: "Kukhni Nashikh Narodov" and the
      section title is: "Russkaia i Sovetskaia Kukhni") Let me know if you
      need help locating the book in Russian, and I'll send you a reference
      for where to find it.

      ~Aryenne / Jenna

      ***********************************************
      Jenna Mitelman

      (612) 678-5678 (Day)
      (612) 872-0272 (Eve)
      (763) 234-1816 (Cell)

      Jenna.Mitelman@...
    • Jenn
      ... specifically to the ... (In case the Russian font ... Hmm, I m being extra dense today. I searched WorldCat and found this: Natsional nye kukhni nashikh
      Message 2 of 15 , Feb 14, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        > Oh, and Yana, since you asked for the title of the book in Russian, it
        > is: "Кухни наших народов", and I'm referring
        specifically to the
        > section titled "Русская и советская кухни."
        (In case the Russian font
        > doesn't come out, the book title is: "Kukhni Nashikh Narodov" and the
        > section title is: "Russkaia i Sovetskaia Kukhni") Let me know if you
        > need help locating the book in Russian, and I'll send you a reference
        > for where to find it.


        Hmm, I'm being extra dense today. I searched WorldCat and found this:

        Natsional'nye kukhni nashikh narodov: povarennaia kniga (Moskva:
        TSentrpoligraf, 2000)

        Is that it? Or is it:
        Kukhni slavianskikh narodov (Moskva: TSentrpoligraf, 1997)?

        --Yana, the not-quite-yet-a-librarian
      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Greetings! ... V.V. Pokhlebkin, Iz Istorii Russkoy Kulinarnoy Kultury - Moscow, Centrpoligraph, 2002. (Culinary Art Classics series). 540 pp., ISBN
        Message 3 of 15 , Feb 14, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings!

          >
          > >Pokhlebkin refers to it in his other book, "From the history of
          > Russian >cooking culture" - a study of 18- and 19-century Russian
          > cooking and >eating habits depicted in the Russian drama of 19 century.
          > Could you please give me this title in Russian? I found the others,
          > but can't seem to find this one. Thank you!


          V.V. Pokhlebkin, "Iz Istorii Russkoy Kulinarnoy Kultury" - Moscow, Centrpoligraph, 2002. (Culinary Art Classics series). 540 pp., ISBN 5-227-00961-9

          Sorry for keeping you waiting, usually I read e-mail at work, and the books are at home.

          Bye,
          Alex.
        • Jenna Mitelman
          Yana, I m guessing it s the first book you found, Natsional nye kukhni nashikh narodov: povarennaia kniga, although I m not certain. Why don t you try this:
          Message 4 of 15 , Feb 15, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Yana,

            I'm guessing it's the first book you found, "Natsional'nye kukhni
            nashikh narodov: povarennaia kniga," although I'm not certain.

            Why don't you try this:
            Go to: http://vkus.narod.ru/
            It contains large "excerpts" from various Pokhlebkin writings,
            including some of his articles, and some books.
            It specifically infcludes most of "Kukhni Nashikh Narodov," including
            the section on the "Russian and Soviet Kitchen" I've been quoting
            from.
            As long as you can read the Russian, this should work for you.

            Good luck! :-)

            ~Aryenne / Jenna


            On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 23:19:13 -0000, Jenn <yana@...> wrote:
            > Hmm, I'm being extra dense today. I searched WorldCat and found this:
            >
            > Natsional'nye kukhni nashikh narodov: povarennaia kniga (Moskva:
            > TSentrpoligraf, 2000)
            >
            > Is that it? Or is it:
            > Kukhni slavianskikh narodov (Moskva: TSentrpoligraf, 1997)?
            >
            > --Yana, the not-quite-yet-a-librarian

            ***********************************************
            Jenna Mitelman

            (612) 678-5678 (Day)
            (612) 872-0272 (Eve)
            (763) 234-1816 (Cell)

            Jenna.Mitelman@...
          • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
            Greetings! ... he says Masla , thus we can t say oils . In Russian the word denotes both oils and butters (except animal fat like lard or bacon fat). I d
            Message 5 of 15 , Feb 16, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Greetings!


              > However, I'm puzzled by 2 other statements in the same book, given the
              > above claim.
              > At one point, a bit earlier in the book, Pokhlebkin writes that
              > different "butters" or "oils" (depends on how you read the word - no
              he says "Masla", thus we can't say "oils". In Russian the word denotes both oils and butters (except animal fat like lard or bacon fat). I'd suggest just using "Maslo", as we have no special term for that in English.

              > problems there) were used, *primarily plant-based ones*. The way the
              > word "oils"/"butters" is being used, it really doesn't sound like it
              > could mean pork fat (salo), beef fat, or other animal fats, so I don't
              Yes, indeed.

              > understand the meaning of *primarily* vegetable "oils" is butter was
              > unavailable. Sure, it might have been rare, but if it was unavailable
              > completely, I don't see why say "primarily", or what he might be
              > referring to as the other, non-vegetable, options. The way "oils" is

              I just don't know if almond oil/butter was thick or thin.

              > being used also really doesn't sound like he could be referring to
              > sour cream, so I'm quite confused by that statement.
              > The other statement that confuses me even more also comes from the
              > same book, from his discussion on kashas. He says that for since
              > ancient times (which he generally uses throughout the book to mean
              > pre-17th century), crumbly kashas were made with "creme-based [read:
              > dairy] and molten butters/oils" and also a list of some plant-based
              > oils that could also be used. The plant oils are made to sound
              > secondary, and certainly not exclusive.
              > (For those of you who can read Russian, the quote is: "Для рассыпчатых
              > каш исстари использовали сливочное и топлёное масла, а из растительных
              > - подсолнечное, конопляное, маковое, ореховое, в том числе и
              > миндальное.")
              Well, your English equivalent is correct. Though, I'd add such a thing: first, for the first several pages of the chapter, he treats cooking diachronically, naming and explaining the periods in cooking. Then he passes to exact meals/diches, and here he drops the periodization as unnecessary. Thus, pre-17 century makes 3 periods for him: Old Rus (until about 1400s), something I don't remember the name of, just like "Old Moscow" (1400s-1500s) and the beginning of the wider food import, starting in 1500s and finishing about late 1600s - early 1700s. The point is that some foods were typical to one period, others were tuypical for the whole national tradition. So, my point is that speaking about kashas he simply united all oils fats and butters that were used before 17century, as the differences in fats were not important here. The main idea of the passage you took the extract from, was: "Kasha just need adding fats, otgherwise it is not Kasha".
              >
              > I have a hard time understanding how it could be both that
              > butter-making was unknown, and yet butter was used. And I simply can't
              > find a different way of reading these 2 statements. The words the
              > author uses don't seem to me to be readable in any way other than to
              > imply either butter or oil, but certainly not animal fats.
              Yes. For animal fat they used words like Salo or Zhir. In western regions like Carpatians and Belarus, they also used the word Tlust (fat), that stuill exists in those region in the same sense (source: another report from "Natonal Nitrition pattern..." I mentioned before, the article about national cooking ways of Lemki people, Carpatian mountains).

              > There was very little importing pre-17th century, and certainly not of
              > something like butter, so I'm simply puzzled here.
              > Anyone have a way of reading these that might make sense, or somehow
              > explain where they might have gotten butter if they didn't make it?
              > (Pokhlebkin says that the *making* of creme and butter was unknown,
              > which technically does not rule out their use, but I simply don't see
              > how it might have been possible).
              BTW, it just came to me: are we speaking of one and the same butter?
              1)in 19-20 century Russia there were two kinds of butter - salted and "sweet" (Solyenoye/Sladkoslivochnoye). Salted butter had much longer shelf life. Maybe, this was the point? Was the traditional butter of the Scandinavians salted or not? If yes, then - for Muscovy, with its centre in Moscow region, they could make butter in northern regions (Novgorod!!!), as it was colder there, and the butter did not rancidity so easily, - and then export it to Moscow, where Sylvester indeed could have it from the market, but did not mention it as home-made.


              > Oh, and Yana, since you asked for the title of the book in Russian, it
              > is: "Кухни наших народов", and I'm referring specifically to the
              > section titled "Русская и советская кухни." (In case the Russian font
              > doesn't come out, the book title is: "Kukhni Nashikh Narodov" and the
              > section title is: "Russkaia i Sovetskaia Kukhni") Let me know if you
              > need help locating the book in Russian, and I'll send you a reference
              > for where to find it.
              And, in the chapter about the Finnish cooking he once again drops some words that it was Finns who specialized in dairy food in the multi-national cooking of Russia/USSR.

              Bye,
              Alex
            • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
              Greetings! The extracts are not quite sources, but they drop some facts that can be traced further. Thus: В I веке нашей эры Плитий
              Message 6 of 15 , Feb 16, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Greetings!

                The extracts are not quite sources, but they drop some facts that can be traced further. Thus:
                В I веке нашей эры Плитий писал, что некоторые народы употребляли в пищу сливочное масло. До этого сливочное масло использовали только как косметическое средство. Одним из первых сливочное масло научились делать североамериканские племена, затем галлы. В V столетии масло начали делать в Ирландии, Норвегии. У итальянцев сливочное масло появилось в IX веке. В 1871 году в Вологодской губернии был открыт первый маслодельный завод; через 20 лет таких заводов по России было 376, а в 1913 году - 4097. Россия вырабатывала масло хорошего качества и занимала второе место в мире по его экспорту.
                ( http://yoga.paramatman.ru/yoga-milk.html&pagestyle=print )

                (Plitius (in another reference, he is called "Plinius the Elder") in 1 century AD wrote that some nationa eat butter, used before as cosmetics. One of teh first to make irt were north American tribes, then the Gauls. In 5 century they started making butter in Ireland and Norway. In Italy it started in 9 century, in Russia first butter factory was made in 1871, in Vologda region, in 20 years there were 376, in 1013 there were 4097 of such in Russia. Russia made good butter and was the world second butter exporter.)

                But:

                Многие почему - то считают его сравнительно нестарым продуктом. Между тем это далеко не так. Например, большой авторитет во всем, что связано с молоком, А. И. Ивашура утверждает: "В V веке в Ирландии, а в IX веке в Италии и в России сливочное масло было уже широко известным продуктом питания. Норвежцы в VIII веке брали с собой в дальние плавания бочонки с коровьим маслом. В договоре древнего Новгорода с немцами (1270 г.) есть свидетельство о стоимости "горшка масла". "Акты исторические" указывают, что Печенежский монастырь, пользуясь отсутствием пошлин, скупал масло у крестьян и продавал его в Антверпен и Амстердам..."

                ( http://cook.denek.net/history/17.html )

                (it is a common mistake to consider butter a recent development. Though, a dairy expert A.I. Ivashura states: "since 5 century it was common in Ireland, since 9 century it was common in Italy and Ireland. The Norwegianns took kegs with melted butter to their sea fares. In an act of Niovgorod with the Germans (1270) the cost of a butter jar was mentioned. "Historical acts" state that Pecheneg (maybe, Pinega??? It's an obvious mistake), being tax-free, bought butter from the peasants and re-sold it to Antwerpen and Amsterdam...)

                Если сливки долго сбивать, то получится масло. Об этом фокусе знает любой школьник из притчи о проворной лягушке, потрудившейся лапками в жирном молоке и таким образом спасшейся из крынки. Наши предки говорили не масло", а мазло" - от слова мазать. Так называемое чухонское масло получают из сквашенных сливок. Оно менее жирное и отличается характерным кисловатым вкусом. Но прежде на Руси научились делать топленое масло, которое европейцы так и называли русским". Лишь в XIX веке из Финляндии в Петербург завезли сметанное масло ( чухонское"). Удивительно, что столь привычное нам сливочное масло в России появилось еще позже - к нам оно пришло из Дании.

                When you beat cream for long, you get butter. Any schoolboy knows that from the tale of the frog that toiled with her legs in a jar of fat milk and thus escaped from it. Our ancestors said not "maslo" but "mazlo" - from "mazat'" (spread). So-called Chukhonskoye Maslo was made of sour cream, it is less fat and has a recognisable light sour taste. But before that the Russians learned to make melted butter, which was called "Russian" (Yep! that can make the thing - melted butter can be stored for long, but is eaten only in hot dishes like Kasha, etc) by the Europeans. Only in 19 century sour cream butter (Chukhonskoye) was brought to St. Petersburg from Finland. But the butter we used to was brought even later, we got it from Denmark.


                Hope that helps.

                Bye,
                Alex.
              • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                ... Um... I don t think you mean north American tribes here...? ... I just checked the Encyclopedia Britannica, and they point out a key date in the FACTORY
                Message 7 of 15 , Feb 16, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  > (Plitius (in another reference, he is called "Plinius the Elder") in
                  >1 century AD wrote that some nationa eat butter, used before as
                  >cosmetics. One of teh first to make irt were north American tribes,
                  >then the Gauls.

                  Um... I don't think you mean 'north American tribes' here...?

                  > In 5 century they started making butter in Ireland and
                  >Norway. In Italy it started in 9 century, in Russia first butter
                  >factory was made in 1871, in Vologda region, in 20 years there were
                  >376, in 1013 there were 4097 of such in Russia. Russia made good butter
                  >and was the world second butter exporter.)

                  I just checked the Encyclopedia Britannica, and they point out a key
                  date in the FACTORY making of butter:
                  "With the advent of the cream separator in the late 19th century, the
                  manufacture of butter moved from the farm to the factory."

                  This may have been the technique being dated here.

                  > But:
                  > (it is a common mistake to consider butter a recent development.
                  >Though, a dairy expert A.I. Ivashura states: "since 5 century it was
                  >common in Ireland, since 9 century it was common in Italy and Ireland.
                  >The Norwegianns took kegs with melted butter to their sea fares. In an
                  >act of Niovgorod with the Germans (1270) the cost of a butter jar was
                  >mentioned. "Historical acts" state that Pecheneg (maybe, Pinega??? It's
                  >an obvious mistake), being tax-free, bought butter from the peasants
                  >and re-sold it to Antwerpen and Amsterdam...)

                  > When you beat cream for long, you get butter. Any schoolboy knows
                  >that from the tale of the frog that toiled with her legs in a jar of
                  >fat milk and thus escaped from it. Our ancestors said not "maslo" but
                  >"mazlo" - from "mazat'" (spread). So-called Chukhonskoye Maslo was made
                  >of sour cream, it is less fat and has a recognisable light sour taste.
                  >But before that the Russians learned to make melted butter, which was
                  >called "Russian" (Yep! that can make the thing - melted butter can be
                  >stored for long, but is eaten only in hot dishes like Kasha, etc) by
                  >the Europeans.

                  Hm... that sounds like the product we think of as 'clarified butter' or
                  'ghee'-- butter that is melted and the milk solids removed?

                  >Only in 19 century sour cream butter (Chukhonskoye) was
                  >brought to St. Petersburg from Finland. But the butter we used to was
                  >brought even later, we got it from Denmark.
                  >

                  Yes, that makes sense... here's another excerpt from the EB, on modern
                  Western butter production:

                  "Continuous butter making, introduced after World War II, increased the
                  efficiency and output of butter manufacture. There are two methods of
                  continuous buttermaking: one involving the accelerated churning of
                  normal cream and the other the utilization of reseparated high-fat
                  cream."

                  --
                  -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                  "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a Communist or a
                  Republican." - Karen Schneider
                • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                  Greetings ... I bet I do. ïÄÎÉÍ ÉÚ ÐÅÒ×ÙÈ ÓÌÉ×ÏÞÎÏÅ ÍÁÓÌÏ ÎÁÕÞÉÌÉÓØ ÄÅÌÁÔØ ÓÅ×ÅÒÏÁÍÅÒÉËÁÎÓËÉÅ
                  Message 8 of 15 , Feb 17, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Greetings

                    > > (Plitius (in another reference, he is called "Plinius the Elder") in
                    > >1 century AD wrote that some nationa eat butter, used before as
                    > >cosmetics. One of teh first to make irt were north American tribes,
                    > >then the Gauls.
                    > Um... I don't think you mean 'north American tribes' here...?
                    I bet I do.
                    Одним из первых сливочное масло научились делать североамериканские племена, затем галлы
                    if you have Russian fonts.

                    > > In 5 century they started making butter in Ireland and
                    > >Norway. In Italy it started in 9 century, in Russia first butter
                    > >factory was made in 1871, in Vologda region, in 20 years there were
                    > >376, in 1013 there were 4097 of such in Russia. Russia made good butter
                    > >and was the world second butter exporter.)
                    > I just checked the Encyclopedia Britannica, and they point out a key
                    > date in the FACTORY making of butter:
                    > "With the advent of the cream separator in the late 19th century, the
                    > manufacture of butter moved from the farm to the factory."
                    > This may have been the technique being dated here.
                    >
                    > > But:
                    > > (it is a common mistake to consider butter a recent development.
                    > >Though, a dairy expert A.I. Ivashura states: "since 5 century it was
                    > >common in Ireland, since 9 century it was common in Italy and Ireland.
                    > >The Norwegianns took kegs with melted butter to their sea fares. In an
                    > >act of Niovgorod with the Germans (1270) the cost of a butter jar was
                    > >mentioned. "Historical acts" state that Pecheneg (maybe, Pinega??? It's
                    > >an obvious mistake), being tax-free, bought butter from the peasants
                    > >and re-sold it to Antwerpen and Amsterdam...)
                    >
                    > > When you beat cream for long, you get butter. Any schoolboy knows
                    > >that from the tale of the frog that toiled with her legs in a jar of
                    > >fat milk and thus escaped from it. Our ancestors said not "maslo" but
                    > >"mazlo" - from "mazat'" (spread). So-called Chukhonskoye Maslo was made
                    > >of sour cream, it is less fat and has a recognisable light sour taste.
                    > >But before that the Russians learned to make melted butter, which was
                    > >called "Russian" (Yep! that can make the thing - melted butter can be
                    > >stored for long, but is eaten only in hot dishes like Kasha, etc) by
                    > >the Europeans.
                    >
                    > Hm... that sounds like the product we think of as 'clarified butter' or
                    > 'ghee'-- butter that is melted and the milk solids removed?
                    Maybe. Lingvo.yandex.ru says it's melted buffalo milk butter. In Russian, Toplenoye Maslo. Its companion, Toplenoye Moloko also gains several percent fat more after stewing in the oven.

                    Thus, it seems butter WAS used in period, but its production was rather low, and it was (for Russia) clarified ("gheed" :-) ) for longer storage but that reduced its implementation to the fat-in-the-porridge, etc.

                    Bye,
                    Alex.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.