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Re: [sig] [jboyko@magma.ca: Re: Pierogies vs pirozhki (was Re: SC - Northkeep's Winterkingdom)]

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
    Greetings Jadwiga! ... Yes, it will. It is about 80% covering the issue we are discussing. And is written in much more fine kitchen English. ... In other
    Message 1 of 4 , Sep 14, 2004
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      Greetings Jadwiga!
      >
      > This is an old message off the SCA-Cooks list about pierogies, etc. I
      > don't know if it will illuminate the question, but I've been saving it
      > wondering what to do with it.

      Yes, it will. It is about 80% covering the issue we are discussing. And is written in much more fine kitchen English.


      > ----- Forwarded message from Jane Boyko <jboyko@...> -----
      >
      > To: sca-cooks@...
      > From: Jane Boyko <jboyko@...>
      > Subject: Re: Pierogies vs pirozhki (was Re: SC - Northkeep's
      > Winterkingdom)
      > Reply-To: sca-cooks@...
      > X-UID: 15
      > X-Keywords:
      >
      > Yana is correct that pierogies is the term used by modern folks for
      > "dumplings". However the dough is more of a noodle dough (can be quite
      > stretchy) as opposed to a pastry dough (usually flour, egg, water and
      > salt). Dumplings is the English translation that my Ukrainain family, and
      > many Polish friends, applies to them.
      > see: Lemnis, Maria and Henryk Vitry. Old Polish Traditions In the Kitchen
      > and at the Table. New York: Hippocrene Books, 1981.

      In other words, we have this in teh context of Polish-Ukrainian and more westbound kitchens.


      > The Ukrainains refer to these as Varenyky. The Ukrainians also offer a
      > dish similar to varenyky called Pyrohy which is made with a yeast-raised

      -h- is just the Ukrainian pronunciation of -g-. Same sound in southern Russian dialect, opposing the sharp -g- of the Moscow and northern dialects.

      Thus, from Ukraine and eastwards into Russia, Pirogi mean pies, not dumplings.

      > dough or shortning like pastry dough. The varenyky are not used in the
      > traditional sense of dumplings (cooked on top of soup or stew) but rather,
      > quite often, as a meal on their own, first boiled to cook the dough and

      The only period way of cooking them is like this; not in the least "quite often".
      One of the most poetic descriptions of the dish is given in Gogol's "Night before Christmas" (or whatever the English translation can be - Canadian-based subscribers will plenty Gogol's books, I hope)

      > then served hot with sour cream. Depending on the filling these are really
      > yummy served as leftovers fried in butter.
      > see: Stechishin, Savella. Traditional Ukrainian Cookery. Winnipeg, Canada:
      > Trident Press Ltd., 1982. (out of print I believe).
      > As to the Pirozhok The Art of Russian Cuisine lists three different types
      > of pies and fillings.
      >
      > Pirog: large rectangular pie made with a yeast dough and compared to Brioche
      ????????
      Nero Wolfe's cookbook treats brioches as scones, breads and anything but not pies. Same with many other sources. Though www.restoran.ru says that in some regions they baked brioches with something wrapped into the dough, e.g. a sausage. Which of the recipes is more typical - with or w/o filling?

      > Kurnik: "one of the oldest pirog recipes. It is round with a cone-shaped
      > top, about 5 inches high and contains several layers of filling--chicken,
      > fresh mushroom, and chopped hard cooked eggs. Crepes separate the fillings
      > and asorb the juices"
      Not just crepes. Simply layers of same dough, if I got the translation right. Except abovementioned, Kurnik could incorporate any meat or liver, onions, etc. several times I met the reference that Kurnik derives not from Kuritsa (chicken) but Kurny Pirog (Kurnaya Izba is a house with an oven without a chimney, with smoke exitting through the door - nothing to do with chicken).

      >
      > Kulebiaka: narrow rectangular pie (4 X 12 X 4 inches) (w x l x h) with 2
      > full crusts and filled with different layers or each corner contains a
      > diferent filling.
      Never met such description

      > These are classified as the large pies.

      ...and Kulebiaka is the smallest of them

      >
      > Small pies are called Pirozhki
      > Pirozhok: small (2.5 to 5 inch long) oval pie or turnover and stuffed with
      ???? can't imagine an 2.5-inch Pirozhok. They are oval - and just think what is left for the filling - 2.5-inch long means no more than 1-1.5-inch wide.

      > a meat filling.

      ANY filling!!!!!!!!!!!!

      > Rasstegai: similar to Pirozhok but open in middle to reveal filling
      Yes
      > Vatrushka: small round open face pie, usually a soup accompianment.
      No, wrong guess. Vatrushki are cottage cheese pies, or, to be more exact, pies with sweet cottage-cheese-and-beaten-egg filling. Can't imagine a soup eaten with sweet vatrushka.

      > All of these types of pies are baked.
      yes.

      > It seems that the Russians used piroghi to refer to all pies of the above
      > nature as opposed to the the Polish Perogie and the Ukrainain Varenyky. It
      > is interesting to note that the Russians also use the term Varenyky to
      > refer to that special type of dumpling that the mundane world refers to as
      > perogie.
      > book reference: Volokh, Anne. The Art of Russian Cuisine. USA:
      > MacMillan, 1983.
      ergm.... What else could the Russians use, meaning the UKRAINIAN dish? Vareniki in Russian culture are connected with Ukraine, and Ukraine only. When Gogol wrote his "Nights on the farm by Dikanka", to recall sweet Ukraine in dark and damp St. Petersburg - he chose just vareniki to show how traditionally-Ukrainian Paunchy Patsiuk was. Vareniki and Borsch were borrowed directly to denote Ukrainian dishes, thus the Ukrainian meaning.

      > I have found a refence in "Old Polish Traditions" refering to perogi under
      > the Lithuanian name of kolduny. These are described as meat filled perogi
      ???????
      In Buelorussia (core part of Great Principality of Lietuva) Kolduny are filled with mushrooms, and this type of filling is called the "very characteristic type of treating the concept of Pelmeni in Buelorusia and Lietuva". Source: Pokhlebkin's recipes.

      > (ravioli to which perogi are very similar). This reference appears to come
      > out of the Jagiellon dynasty which started in late 1300's.


      > >>Did anyone find any definative evidence that these were period? Period
      > >>recipes would be even better, but I doubt we have that.
      > >
      > >I only know about pirozhkis. Yes, they are period, no, we don't have a
      > >"recipe." But, we do know what types of fillings were used in pies, and
      > >pirozhki means "little pie." The Domostroi (in the definitely period
      > >section) lists pie fillings: "For meat days stuff them with whichever meat
      > >is at hand. For fast days use kasha, peas, broth [I presume mixed with a

      Oh, first I missed it... I'll look through the Russian text. It is obviously a mistake of the English translation.

      > >drier ingredient], turnips, mushrooms, cabbage, or whatever God provides."
      > >[Pouncy:125]. On page 151 and 161, "turnovers" are mentioned. In Pouncy's
      > >footnote of the latter entry, she calls them "pirozhki."
      > >
      > >No mention of the cooking technique, but I would guess they were probably
      > >baked, like the bigger pies, if only because they would be slightly easier
      > >to bake for an entire household instead of frying them in batches.
      Frying them in fat is not a Russian technique but rather a Ukrainian one, as Pokhlebkin states.

      > >Although if you set up some sort of assembly-line type of service (fry a
      > >few, rush them to the diners, fry a few, rush them to the next batch of
      > >diners, etc.) it might work. Or maybe keeping them warm in the
      > >oven...okay, I'm reaching here. I don't know how they were cooked. :-)

      The assembly-line service worked with pancakes. :-)

      Bye,
      Alex.

      Hope I wasn't too impolite...
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