Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Do you have a Pieroshgie filling preference?

Expand Messages
  • Ben McGarr
    ... filling ingredient. Privet Aleksei! I m in Manchester now but on Ponedel nik I ll be back in Moskve, where I ve lived for the past three years. [Except
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 9, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
      <Posadnik@m...> wrote:
      > Where are you writing from? Here in Moscow garlic isn't s regular
      filling ingredient.

      Privet Aleksei!
      I'm in Manchester now but on Ponedel'nik I'll be back in Moskve,
      where I've lived for the past three years. [Except the awful hot
      Summers!] Maybe you go to different supermarkets than me? I buy
      Darya pelmeny s chesnokom in Vesta, and in Zodiak. I teach in the
      Space-Town Korolyov [byvshe Kaliningrad] in Moskovskim Oblaste, just
      outside the MKAD ringroad beyond Mytischi, and on the banks of the
      Klyaz'my.

      My girlfriend's mother is Ukrainka so maybe that's of some relevance
      in the food being a little different when it's not from the
      supermarket.

      > Or cherries, mashed potatoes with fried onions (though OOP) also
      welcome.

      Nyam nyam!

      > And not of Komi Zyriane but of Komi Permyaki (Komi of Perm) tribes.
      Northern Urals and a little westwards.

      These fellows being encountered earlier and more thoroughly brought
      into the Russian state than their Northern Brothers, I suppose [and
      thus being largely assimilated over the greater part of their
      territory, though one shouldn't assume that the autonomous okrug is
      an especially accurate indicator of their geographical spread].

      I wonder however if it is really possible to see the difference
      between Zyrian and Permyak in this Russian vzvaimstvovanie? On the
      face of it the Permyak thing seems most likely, but the Slavyane were
      approaching the Permians from the West as well as the South. THe
      dialects are virtually identical, after all.

      Here's a question! Do the Tatars eat pelmeny? Could it be possible
      that this food and its name were transmitted to the Russkies through
      this route?

      > I'd say since mid-1600s. The colonization of the Urals and Siberia
      started from that region.

      THat's the time of more serious interest on the part of the Muscovite
      gosudarstvo, true, but didn't Novgorod and Vyatka have influence in
      the area since earlier times? The basin of the Northern Dvina [or at
      least its lower stretches] were thoroughly Russified at an earlier
      date, making the local Chud' Finnics fall into the realm of legend
      and rumour.

      Saint Stephan Permskiy from Ustyug came there in the Fourteenth
      Century, giving them an alphabet in 1372, and he is sometimes seen as
      an agent of Moscow policy in the area, which had recently been
      wrestled from Novgorod.

      THere's a nice ikon of Stepan here and you will find a picture of the
      alfabit he created. ;

      http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/komi/pics/kstf.htm

      > > As for pirozhki, I love simple cabbage.
      > Simple???? Cabbage is slightly fried (sauteed, i"d say), and often
      they add chopped egg and onions. Only then the filling is ready for
      the pie.

      Simple to eat, Lyosha! I don't cook them!!! ;o)

      > > Pirozhok [stress the final syllable] just means little feast
      [pir].
      > Wrong guess. Pir may have something to do with Pirog, but Pirozhok
      is the diminutive of Pirog - mind the consonant interchange, g->zh,
      and the enderment-diminutive suffix -ok (zub - zubok, dub - dubok,
      les - lesok). In modern Russian there is NO diminutive form of Pir.

      Thanks for the correction. But isn't this just a diminuitive of a
      diminuitive, then? I should have said originates from instead of
      means.

      And it couldn't be in period. Just like there is no endearment-
      diminutive for Motherland or God. Pir was positioned as a half-sacred
      thing, half - state affair.

      Tsar' detey svoikh szyvaet na krovavyy brannyy pir, On ikh v goste
      snova snaryazhaet chtoby byl v Rossii mir!

      Do you know this song? S bogom, dete, v put' dalyokiy pereplyt' nam
      cherez Dunay. A potom uzhe nedalyoko Tsar'grad nash, Nikolay.
      >
      > > The same root is used in holiday prazdnik and celebrate
      prazdnovat'.
      > Wouldn't say so. In modern Russian at least.
      > Prazdnik derives from Prazdny - "idle", i.e. it's teh day when you
      are supposed to celebrate but not work.

      Not very modern, then!

      >Same root in Porozhny (vowel interchange between Old Russian and Old
      Slavic (Bulgarian) vocabulary -oro- - -ra-) - "empty".

      I'll have to check this when I'm back home and have access to
      Chernikh's etym. slovar' again.
      Are you suggesting that prazdny [as opposed to budny] is thus related
      to Porog [threshold, river rapids], as in Zaporozhets? And pora?
      Davno pora? Yes, it would appear so. Hmmm! What about porok? >;o)

      With snailuchshimi pozhelaniums and cheers,
      Ben
    • Michele Frykas
      I know this is out of period, but I do enjoy potato & dill..... These are also common fillings my family uses for veraneky (perogies) that can also be suitable
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 9, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        I know this is out of period, but I do enjoy potato & dill.....

        These are also common fillings my family uses for veraneky (perogies) that
        can also be suitable depending on your dough...cottage cheese and dill,
        prune, sour kraut.

        Dzinovia

        > Subject: Do you have a Pieroshgie filling preference?
        >
        > This is an informal poll, as we will be flogging pieroshgies at John
        > Barleycorn, along with some period apple frytters. (15th c. I can
        > send the recipe to anyone who is interested).
        >
        ><SNIP>
        > Sasha
        >
        >
      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
        Greetings Ben! ... I got you. The only thing is that garlic filling is not the traditional type one, in stores they are simply trying to vary the taste as much
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 13, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings Ben!

          > > Where are you writing from? Here in Moscow garlic isn't s regular
          > filling ingredient.
          > Privet Aleksei!
          > I'm in Manchester now but on Ponedel'nik I'll be back in Moskve,
          > where I've lived for the past three years. [Except the awful hot
          > Summers!] Maybe you go to different supermarkets than me? I buy
          > Darya pelmeny s chesnokom in Vesta, and in Zodiak. I teach in the
          > Space-Town Korolyov [byvshe Kaliningrad] in Moskovskim Oblaste, just
          > outside the MKAD ringroad beyond Mytischi, and on the banks of the
          > Klyaz'my.
          I got you. The only thing is that garlic filling is not the traditional type one, in stores they are simply trying to vary the taste as much as possible, thus garlic and other strong-flavour additives. I seldom buy other Pelmeni than Sibirskiye, they are most close to the original recipe.

          (skipped)
          > > And not of Komi Zyriane but of Komi Permyaki (Komi of Perm) tribes.
          > Northern Urals and a little westwards.
          > These fellows being encountered earlier and more thoroughly brought
          > into the Russian state than their Northern Brothers, I suppose [and
          > thus being largely assimilated over the greater part of their
          > territory, though one shouldn't assume that the autonomous okrug is
          > an especially accurate indicator of their geographical spread].
          The thing is Komi live on the both sides of the Urals. But the dish belongs to the Perm tribes being part of the Komi nation.

          > I wonder however if it is really possible to see the difference
          > between Zyrian and Permyak in this Russian vzvaimstvovanie? On the
          > face of it the Permyak thing seems most likely, but the Slavyane were
          > approaching the Permians from the West as well as the South. THe
          > dialects are virtually identical, after all.
          But the area they live is not. The dish was invented by the Komi living in the Perm region, as the story says.

          > Here's a question! Do the Tatars eat pelmeny? Could it be possible

          Original Pelnyani - nivvah! The traditional filling includes pork.
          Though, if the filling is beef or lamb only, then why not.

          > that this food and its name were transmitted to the Russkies through
          > this route?

          No. Perm region was the gates to the Siberia, as the factory of the Demidov (afair their, but I need to see the book at home) brothers was the main outpost of the Russian expansion beyond teh Urals. Vyatka, Solikamsk, Solvychegodsk, etc were the last strongholds before the Urals, it was an important region with convenient routes across the mountains. The story of Ermak's march to Siberia started there. The region was controlled by the Russians, all the economic interests were exclusively Russian (Tatars held no trade across the Northern Urals, but the Russians did, from the days of the Novgorod republic).

          Thus, the borrowings from the Perm went directly from the Perm to the Russians. To invent a dough-and-meat dish, the Perms were to see the wheat dough first, and the Russians were known to introduce wheat to the Perm where only barley was grown before.

          > > I'd say since mid-1600s. The colonization of the Urals and Siberia
          > started from that region.
          > THat's the time of more serious interest on the part of the Muscovite
          > gosudarstvo, true, but didn't Novgorod and Vyatka have influence in
          > the area since earlier times? The basin of the Northern Dvina [or at

          yes of course. But they were not likely to sell the Komi loads of wheat then, as it was far to move it from Novgorod and even from trade outposts. When the border of _regular_ Russian territories, with borders, cities, mills and all that, came close to the Urals (the Novgorod men held simple trade outposts not settlements there), the Komi started to get used to wheat. No wheat before, no Pelmeni earlier than 1600s.

          > least its lower stretches] were thoroughly Russified at an earlier
          > date, making the local Chud' Finnics fall into the realm of legend
          > and rumour.
          Chud were the neighbors of the Novgorod lands. The Perm were among the last nations/tribes Novgorod merchants established fur trade with. The Urals were not in the least russified by late period. Too few Russian settlements. The rusification started after the Kazan khanate takeover, no earlier.

          > Saint Stephan Permskiy from Ustyug came there in the Fourteenth
          > Century, giving them an alphabet in 1372, and he is sometimes seen as
          > an agent of Moscow policy in the area, which had recently been
          > wrestled from Novgorod.

          yes. But the root of any expansion is economy. The Russians had their settlements in the today's US, up to LA. But economically they were hopeless to supply, and ceased being. The same with the Russians in Perm. When it was the frontier, contacts were seldom. But later, in 1500s, they formed the base for the advance to beyond the Urals, and there were more settlements, and all.
          >
          > THere's a nice ikon of Stepan here and you will find a picture of the
          > alfabit he created. ;
          > http://www.folklore.ee/rl/folkte/sugri/komi/pics/kstf.htm
          The special issue of Rodina magazine devoted to Urals settlement is in my library.

          > > > As for pirozhki, I love simple cabbage.
          > > Simple???? Cabbage is slightly fried (sauteed, i"d say), and often
          > they add chopped egg and onions. Only then the filling is ready for
          > the pie.
          >
          > Simple to eat, Lyosha! I don't cook them!!! ;o)
          Ah, then they are realy simple. :-)

          >
          > > > Pirozhok [stress the final syllable] just means little feast
          > [pir].
          > > Wrong guess. Pir may have something to do with Pirog, but Pirozhok
          > is the diminutive of Pirog - mind the consonant interchange, g->zh,
          > and the enderment-diminutive suffix -ok (zub - zubok, dub - dubok,
          > les - lesok). In modern Russian there is NO diminutive form of Pir.
          >
          > Thanks for the correction. But isn't this just a diminuitive of a
          > diminuitive, then? I should have said originates from instead of
          > means.

          Do not remember the origin of the word Pirog right now. But the diminutive of Pir (I remembered it this weekend) was Pirok, in the traditional phrase in the tales, Veselym Pirkom da za Svadebku (let's start the wedding from the jolly feast).

          > And it couldn't be in period. Just like there is no endearment-
          > diminutive for Motherland or God. Pir was positioned as a half-sacred
          > thing, half - state affair.
          >
          > Tsar' detey svoikh szyvaet na krovavyy brannyy pir, On ikh v goste
          > snova snaryazhaet chtoby byl v Rossii mir!
          > Do you know this song? S bogom, dete, v put' dalyokiy pereplyt' nam
          > cherez Dunay. A potom uzhe nedalyoko Tsar'grad nash, Nikolay.
          late 1800s-1900s, imho. The ever-existing attempt to reach the Bosphor. Never heard the song.

          > > > The same root is used in holiday prazdnik and celebrate
          > prazdnovat'.
          > > Wouldn't say so. In modern Russian at least.
          > > Prazdnik derives from Prazdny - "idle", i.e. it's teh day when you
          > are supposed to celebrate but not work.
          > Not very modern, then!
          I'll look it up in my dictionaries.

          > >Same root in Porozhny (vowel interchange between Old Russian and Old
          > Slavic (Bulgarian) vocabulary -oro- - -ra-) - "empty".
          >
          > I'll have to check this when I'm back home and have access to
          > Chernikh's etym. slovar' again.
          > Are you suggesting that prazdny [as opposed to budny] is thus related
          > to Porog [threshold, river rapids], as in Zaporozhets? And pora?
          Must check it up.

          > Davno pora? Yes, it would appear so. Hmmm! What about porok? >;o)
          Porok in period is a siege weapon name. Porok = Taran of the modern Russian.

          > With snailuchshimi pozhelaniums and cheers,
          > Ben

          Bye,
          Alex.
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.