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Re: Slavic pantheons etc.

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  • Alastair Millar
    Pat - ... I assume that this refers to the list of Slavic spirits , which was the nearest equivalent that I could find. While interesting, this list draws on
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
      Pat -

      > we have a Master list in our file section
      > we've been compiling over a long time,

      I assume that this refers to the list of "Slavic spirits", which was
      the nearest equivalent that I could find. While interesting, this
      list draws on some websites which I would regard as being of very
      dubious quality, and unfortunately makes no references to primary
      source material at all :-(

      To take an example, the entry for Jesza is:

      [quote]
      • Jesza [Pol] 6
      - celestial spirit
      - male 6
      - sky 6
      - equates to Celtic Esus 6
      aka Iesse 6
      aka Jessis 6
      [unquote]

      The sole (and no longer extant!) reference cited here is:
      6) http://www.geocities.com/cas111jd/slavs/index.htm
      Slavic Home Page — Jeff Day

      The work of Jan DLugosz, writing in the 15th century, however, claims
      that Jesza is no mere spirit, but the supreme deity of the Polish
      pantheon! Granted that Dlugosz is regarded by many scholars as being
      an unreliable source who made up information to "fill in the gaps" of
      his knowledge, but the name of Jesza is at least also mentioned by a
      number of early 15th century ecclesiastical sources, where the
      complaint is that he is still being worshipped around Easter, "when
      after all Christians are supposed to revere God".

      Another problem is the association of this "celestial spirit"
      relating to the sky with Esus, a Gaulish deity linked to tree
      cutting...

      This isn't meant as criticism - but rather as an example of how poor
      referencing, and possibly poor vetting of sources, makes everyone's
      lives so much more difficult...

      Cheers

      Alastair
    • Alastair Millar
      ... I shall need it ;-) ... To some extent yes, but... the fundamental question is reliability. I would define a deity (very crudely!) as a being worshipped in
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
        > good luck all the same.

        I shall need it ;-)

        > I see your reasoning here, but isn't this perhaps
        > a rather modern division?

        To some extent yes, but... the fundamental question is reliability. I
        would define a deity (very crudely!) as a being worshipped in a
        sacred precinct/grove/temple, rather than at a domestic altar (for
        example). These are the deities who are more likely to enter the
        written (and of course archaeological) records.

        My personal opinion is that information regarding other 'lesser'
        beings is FAR more susceptible to distortion through the oral
        tradition, folklore and ultimately romaticism.

        I am quite happy to agree to disagree with anyone else about my
        criteria... but I doubt I shall be changing my approach!

        > old friends Yarilo, Kupalo and Kostroma/Kostrubunko.

        Well now, this is where we start running into problems.
        My 'Encyklopedie slovanskych bohu a mytu', for example, has Kupalo as
        the name of a *ceremony/ritual* of bathing, not a deity or other
        being, and the Kostroma as the name of a totem thrown into the water,
        and again not of a deity or other being. Just a thought.

        > That said, I'm surprised you've include Simargl, or
        > is this my modern over-classifying mind at work?

        Russian Primary Chronicle, I believe: worhsipped at Kieve c.980. Name
        probably related to the Iranian Senmurva/Simurga. Some see the root
        as Sedmuraglav ('7-headed') however, while others believe that there
        were originally two deities, Sem (protector of cattle) and Rgl
        (protector of grain), and justify their arguments from placenames
        like Rgielsko and Siemowit in Poland.

        > It may prove more involved than you expect!

        I am aiming at a basic primer, not a comprehensive encyclopedia!
        Besides, I like stir up a little controversy now and then, it wakes
        people up! *evil grin*

        Alastair
      • Alastair Millar
        Jadwiga/Jenne writes ... I haven t done it yet! ;-) And as Rick says, it s a very slippery subject... As I said to Ben, I m only aiming at a basic primer, not
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
          Jadwiga/Jenne writes

          > Thank you!

          I haven't done it yet! ;-)

          And as Rick says, it's a very slippery subject... As I said to Ben,
          I'm only aiming at a basic primer, not a comprehensive encyclopedia -
          and I'm sure that many will be dissatisified with the results!

          Cheers!

          Alastair
        • Nenad Lockic
          Am I wrong or I not saw Vesna in your first message? Or criteria exclude her from the list? Regards, Nenad
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
            Am I wrong or I not saw Vesna in your first message? Or criteria exclude her
            from the list?

            Regards,
            Nenad
          • pniedrich
            ... I assume that this refers to the list of Slavic spirits , which was ... *(snip) ... poor ... everyone s ... Hello Alastair, No problem at all..that s why
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Millar" <alastair@i...> wrote:
              > Pat -
              I assume that this refers to the list of "Slavic spirits", which
              was
              > the nearest equivalent that I could find. While interesting, this
              > list draws on some websites which I would regard as being of very
              > dubious quality, and unfortunately makes no references to primary
              > source material at all :-(

              *(snip)


              > This isn't meant as criticism - but rather as an example of how
              poor
              > referencing, and possibly poor vetting of sources, makes
              everyone's
              > lives so much more difficult...
              > Cheers
              > Alastair

              Hello Alastair,

              No problem at all..that's why I invited someone who has a stronger
              grasp of Archeology or Anthropology onto the list. Of course, I am
              not the sole writer of the list, and I'd appreciate these previous
              commments on that list, to point this out..and to challenge that
              scholarship of those that are contributing. Thanks for the comments,
              however;-)

              Pat/Chicago
            • Alastair Millar
              Nenad writes ... You are correct - it was not there. The reason for this is very simple: no information! If you have some, I would of course be interested in
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 11, 2004
                Nenad writes
                > Am I wrong or I not saw Vesna in your first message?

                You are correct - it was not there.

                The reason for this is very simple: no information! If you have some, I
                would of course be interested in hearing it - but with references/sources,
                please!

                Cheers!

                Alastair

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                Translation & Consultancy for the Heritage Industry
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