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Re: [sig] Slavic pantheons etc.

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  • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
    ... Hurray for Alistair! Thank you! -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net I don t want to claim that God is on our side. As Abraham
    Message 1 of 11 , Aug 9, 2004
      > Now, I'm ready to bite the bullet and prepare a "primer" on Slavic deities,
      > using information that CAN be substantiated - i.e. which comes from
      > archaeological and written sources, not from folklore or romaticism. For
      > each deity I shall also be including details of known/demonstrable 'range',
      > and primary sources where known. When it's done, I'll put it up with the
      > miscellany of Slavic-related stuff on my website.

      Hurray for Alistair! Thank you!


      --
      -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
      "I don't want to claim that God is on our side. As Abraham Lincoln told
      us, I want to pray humbly that we are on God's side." - John Kerry
    • Alastair Millar
      Pat - ... I assume that this refers to the list of Slavic spirits , which was the nearest equivalent that I could find. While interesting, this list draws on
      Message 2 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
        Pat -

        > we have a Master list in our file section
        > we've been compiling over a long time,

        I assume that this refers to the list of "Slavic spirits", which was
        the nearest equivalent that I could find. While interesting, this
        list draws on some websites which I would regard as being of very
        dubious quality, and unfortunately makes no references to primary
        source material at all :-(

        To take an example, the entry for Jesza is:

        [quote]
        • Jesza [Pol] 6
        - celestial spirit
        - male 6
        - sky 6
        - equates to Celtic Esus 6
        aka Iesse 6
        aka Jessis 6
        [unquote]

        The sole (and no longer extant!) reference cited here is:
        6) http://www.geocities.com/cas111jd/slavs/index.htm
        Slavic Home Page — Jeff Day

        The work of Jan DLugosz, writing in the 15th century, however, claims
        that Jesza is no mere spirit, but the supreme deity of the Polish
        pantheon! Granted that Dlugosz is regarded by many scholars as being
        an unreliable source who made up information to "fill in the gaps" of
        his knowledge, but the name of Jesza is at least also mentioned by a
        number of early 15th century ecclesiastical sources, where the
        complaint is that he is still being worshipped around Easter, "when
        after all Christians are supposed to revere God".

        Another problem is the association of this "celestial spirit"
        relating to the sky with Esus, a Gaulish deity linked to tree
        cutting...

        This isn't meant as criticism - but rather as an example of how poor
        referencing, and possibly poor vetting of sources, makes everyone's
        lives so much more difficult...

        Cheers

        Alastair
      • Alastair Millar
        ... I shall need it ;-) ... To some extent yes, but... the fundamental question is reliability. I would define a deity (very crudely!) as a being worshipped in
        Message 3 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
          > good luck all the same.

          I shall need it ;-)

          > I see your reasoning here, but isn't this perhaps
          > a rather modern division?

          To some extent yes, but... the fundamental question is reliability. I
          would define a deity (very crudely!) as a being worshipped in a
          sacred precinct/grove/temple, rather than at a domestic altar (for
          example). These are the deities who are more likely to enter the
          written (and of course archaeological) records.

          My personal opinion is that information regarding other 'lesser'
          beings is FAR more susceptible to distortion through the oral
          tradition, folklore and ultimately romaticism.

          I am quite happy to agree to disagree with anyone else about my
          criteria... but I doubt I shall be changing my approach!

          > old friends Yarilo, Kupalo and Kostroma/Kostrubunko.

          Well now, this is where we start running into problems.
          My 'Encyklopedie slovanskych bohu a mytu', for example, has Kupalo as
          the name of a *ceremony/ritual* of bathing, not a deity or other
          being, and the Kostroma as the name of a totem thrown into the water,
          and again not of a deity or other being. Just a thought.

          > That said, I'm surprised you've include Simargl, or
          > is this my modern over-classifying mind at work?

          Russian Primary Chronicle, I believe: worhsipped at Kieve c.980. Name
          probably related to the Iranian Senmurva/Simurga. Some see the root
          as Sedmuraglav ('7-headed') however, while others believe that there
          were originally two deities, Sem (protector of cattle) and Rgl
          (protector of grain), and justify their arguments from placenames
          like Rgielsko and Siemowit in Poland.

          > It may prove more involved than you expect!

          I am aiming at a basic primer, not a comprehensive encyclopedia!
          Besides, I like stir up a little controversy now and then, it wakes
          people up! *evil grin*

          Alastair
        • Alastair Millar
          Jadwiga/Jenne writes ... I haven t done it yet! ;-) And as Rick says, it s a very slippery subject... As I said to Ben, I m only aiming at a basic primer, not
          Message 4 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
            Jadwiga/Jenne writes

            > Thank you!

            I haven't done it yet! ;-)

            And as Rick says, it's a very slippery subject... As I said to Ben,
            I'm only aiming at a basic primer, not a comprehensive encyclopedia -
            and I'm sure that many will be dissatisified with the results!

            Cheers!

            Alastair
          • Nenad Lockic
            Am I wrong or I not saw Vesna in your first message? Or criteria exclude her from the list? Regards, Nenad
            Message 5 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
              Am I wrong or I not saw Vesna in your first message? Or criteria exclude her
              from the list?

              Regards,
              Nenad
            • pniedrich
              ... I assume that this refers to the list of Slavic spirits , which was ... *(snip) ... poor ... everyone s ... Hello Alastair, No problem at all..that s why
              Message 6 of 11 , Aug 10, 2004
                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Alastair Millar" <alastair@i...> wrote:
                > Pat -
                I assume that this refers to the list of "Slavic spirits", which
                was
                > the nearest equivalent that I could find. While interesting, this
                > list draws on some websites which I would regard as being of very
                > dubious quality, and unfortunately makes no references to primary
                > source material at all :-(

                *(snip)


                > This isn't meant as criticism - but rather as an example of how
                poor
                > referencing, and possibly poor vetting of sources, makes
                everyone's
                > lives so much more difficult...
                > Cheers
                > Alastair

                Hello Alastair,

                No problem at all..that's why I invited someone who has a stronger
                grasp of Archeology or Anthropology onto the list. Of course, I am
                not the sole writer of the list, and I'd appreciate these previous
                commments on that list, to point this out..and to challenge that
                scholarship of those that are contributing. Thanks for the comments,
                however;-)

                Pat/Chicago
              • Alastair Millar
                Nenad writes ... You are correct - it was not there. The reason for this is very simple: no information! If you have some, I would of course be interested in
                Message 7 of 11 , Aug 11, 2004
                  Nenad writes
                  > Am I wrong or I not saw Vesna in your first message?

                  You are correct - it was not there.

                  The reason for this is very simple: no information! If you have some, I
                  would of course be interested in hearing it - but with references/sources,
                  please!

                  Cheers!

                  Alastair

                  -----------------------------------------------------
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                  Translation & Consultancy for the Heritage Industry
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