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Re: [sig] Re: Irena Turnau, rather Bartkiewicz

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  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
    What is the copyright date on the book? Prior to 1980, most of the EE countries were not signatories to the Copyright and they did not recognize our
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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      What is the copyright date on the book? Prior to 1980, most of the EE
      countries were not signatories to the Copyright and they did not recognize
      our intellectual property rights so we didn't have to honor theirs.

      If you've got the author's blessings, I'd say you satisfied the ethical angle .

      And if you're not planning to make a penny off of the translation, it
      really wouldn't be worth anyone's time to sue you.

      No, I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Select last night. :>

      -- Paul


      At 01:54 PM 7/9/2004 +0000, you wrote:
      >I tried to contact (without luck) the copyright owner ( the old
      >soviet era publishing house) to see if I could get their support and
      >permission to publish the full book translation (at this point I
      >only have the 17th C. chapters finished, about a third of the
      >book ). The author Magdalena Bartkiewicz is still a working
      >professor at the university of Warclaw and I did talk to her, she
      >supports the project. I should try again. I suppose I could put it
      >out on the web as an 'unauthorized translation' but I thought it
      >would be good to have a paper product with illustrations, that
      >libraries could have on their shelves, etc.
    • Tim Nalley
      Rik, You re the Whip! I always wanted to read the other works of Turnau and Bartkiewicz, well, looking at her book was impressive but I wonder how much Soviet
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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        Rik,
        You're the Whip! I always wanted to read the other
        works of Turnau and Bartkiewicz, well, looking at her
        book was impressive but I wonder how much Soviet era
        academic/political priorities have influenced both
        works, and thier validity as historical secondary
        docs. Got any ideas on that?
        'dak



        --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:
        > I tried to contact (without luck) the copyright
        > owner ( the old
        > soviet era publishing house) to see if I could get
        > their support and
        > permission to publish the full book translation (at
        > this point I
        > only have the 17th C. chapters finished, about a
        > third of the
        > book ). The author Magdalena Bartkiewicz is still a
        > working
        > professor at the university of Warclaw and I did
        > talk to her, she
        > supports the project. I should try again. I
        > suppose I could put it
        > out on the web as an 'unauthorized translation' but
        > I thought it
        > would be good to have a paper product with
        > illustrations, that
        > libraries could have on their shelves, etc.
        >
        > I also just finished a translation of POLSKIE UBIORY
        > WOJSKOWE z XVI
        > i XVII w. ) By ZOFIA STEFA�SKA (polish military
        > dress)- it is being
        > proofed. That will be posted.
        > -Rick
        > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "ssaucer@j..."
        > <ssaucer@j...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Turnau seems to be about the only author that
        > deals with Polish
        > costume in the English language.
        > > Are there others?
        > > Is your translation of Polski Ubior do 1864 Roku
        > available
        > commercially?
        > > Ilijana Krakowska
        > >
        > > <From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@y...>
        > > <When I translated the somewhat academic Polski
        > Ubior do 1864 Roku
        > > <(Polish costume) [snip] A resource I did not have
        > but wish I did
        > was <Turnau's Polish dictionary of historic costume
        > terminology
        > > <(Turnau, Irena) It is in polish but I expect that
        > the early
        > <terminology would be very similiar in both
        > languages. Your
        > <translators might find it useful. -Rick
        >
        >




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      • Marilee Humason
        Rick, you are a God and we worship at your shrine!!! Any and all translations welcome here!!!!! Thanks for sharing!! Baroness Anastasia
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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          Rick,
          you are a God and we worship at your shrine!!!
          Any and all translations welcome here!!!!!

          Thanks for sharing!!
          Baroness Anastasia


          --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:
          > I tried to contact (without luck) the copyright
          > owner ( the old
          > soviet era publishing house) to see if I could get
          > their support and
          > permission to publish the full book translation (at
          > this point I
          > only have the 17th C. chapters finished, about a
          > third of the
          > book ). The author Magdalena Bartkiewicz is still a
          > working
          > professor at the university of Warclaw and I did
          > talk to her, she
          > supports the project. I should try again. I
          > suppose I could put it
          > out on the web as an 'unauthorized translation' but
          > I thought it
          > would be good to have a paper product with
          > illustrations, that
          > libraries could have on their shelves, etc.
          >
          > I also just finished a translation of POLSKIE UBIORY
          > WOJSKOWE z XVI
          > i XVII w. ) By ZOFIA STEFA�SKA (polish military
          > dress)- it is being
          > proofed. That will be posted.
          > -Rick
          > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "ssaucer@j..."
          > <ssaucer@j...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Turnau seems to be about the only author that
          > deals with Polish
          > costume in the English language.
          > > Are there others?
          > > Is your translation of Polski Ubior do 1864 Roku
          > available
          > commercially?
          > > Ilijana Krakowska
          > >
          > > <From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@y...>
          > > <When I translated the somewhat academic Polski
          > Ubior do 1864 Roku
          > > <(Polish costume) [snip] A resource I did not have
          > but wish I did
          > was <Turnau's Polish dictionary of historic costume
          > terminology
          > > <(Turnau, Irena) It is in polish but I expect that
          > the early
          > <terminology would be very similiar in both
          > languages. Your
          > <translators might find it useful. -Rick
          >
          >
        • Susan Koziel
          Rick, If you are interested, a couple of my friends own a small scale book publisher that prints translations of old books. They may have more luck contacting
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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            Rick,
            If you are interested, a couple of my friends own a
            small scale book publisher that prints translations of
            old books. They may have more luck contacting the
            publisher and arranging for copyright transfer.
            If you contact me off the list I will provide you with
            their contact information.
            -Kataryna

            --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:
            > I tried to contact (without luck) the copyright
            > owner ( the old
            > soviet era publishing house) to see if I could get
            > their support and
            > permission to publish the full book translation (at
            > this point I
            > only have the 17th C. chapters finished, about a
            > third of the
            > book ). The author Magdalena Bartkiewicz is still a
            > working
            > professor at the university of Warclaw and I did
            > talk to her, she
            > supports the project. I should try again. I
            > suppose I could put it
            > out on the web as an 'unauthorized translation' but
            > I thought it
            > would be good to have a paper product with
            > illustrations, that
            > libraries could have on their shelves, etc.
            >
            > I also just finished a translation of POLSKIE UBIORY
            > WOJSKOWE z XVI
            > i XVII w. ) By ZOFIA STEFA�SKA (polish military
            > dress)- it is being
            > proofed. That will be posted.
            > -Rick
            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "ssaucer@j..."
            > <ssaucer@j...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Turnau seems to be about the only author that
            > deals with Polish
            > costume in the English language.
            > > Are there others?
            > > Is your translation of Polski Ubior do 1864 Roku
            > available
            > commercially?
            > > Ilijana Krakowska
            > >
            > > <From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@y...>
            > > <When I translated the somewhat academic Polski
            > Ubior do 1864 Roku
            > > <(Polish costume) [snip] A resource I did not have
            > but wish I did
            > was <Turnau's Polish dictionary of historic costume
            > terminology
            > > <(Turnau, Irena) It is in polish but I expect that
            > the early
            > <terminology would be very similiar in both
            > languages. Your
            > <translators might find it useful. -Rick
            >
            >
          • Rick Orli
            Well, ideology does not really matter about patterns and the like, but there are a few sections where there are some opinions in the class struggle sort of
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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              Well, ideology does not really matter about patterns and the like,
              but there are a few sections where there are some opinions in
              the 'class struggle' sort of vein. Also, The reason the women
              rejected the eastern fashions the men liked (in favor of the lastest
              from Paris) was that the ever practical and sober women (we are
              told) rejected the impractical war-loving fantasies of the menfolk.
              Huh?

              There are political intrusions in some aspects. The russians for
              example were forever justifying the occupation of the ukraine by
              agressively highlighting (or inventing) ancient cultural
              affiliations between moskow and kiew. The russians accuse the poles
              of the same, fair enough, but after 1648 Poles did not have the same
              incentive to fictionalize history. Besides, when a polish source
              states that kiew fashions and krakow fashions were closely in sync
              in the 16th-17th C, it is not a claim of cultural domination so much
              as asknowledgement that polish and lithuanian mens fashion was
              driven by eastern and tatar fashions via the ukraine and before that
              the unkraninian part of the GD of lithuania. After all, Polish
              fashion was much more like german fashion in the prior centuries.
              Modern ukranian, lithuanian, and beylorusian nationalistic histories
              (some russian and polish ones too) tend to condem all prior
              associations with any other nation as part of some sort of evil plot
              to quash their ancient natural right of nationalistic statehood ...
              even if the events in question happened around the time of the
              battle of Hastings, at a time when the very concept of nationalistic
              statehood was unknown.
              -Rick


              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Tim Nalley <mordakus@y...> wrote:
              > Rik,
              > You're the Whip! I always wanted to read the other
              > works of Turnau and Bartkiewicz, well, looking at her
              > book was impressive but I wonder how much Soviet era
              > academic/political priorities have influenced both
              > works, and thier validity as historical secondary
              > docs. Got any ideas on that?
              > 'dak
              >
              >
            • Rick Orli
              Mark Wolf, Jan Chrypinski and many other people helped. I hope more of this material will be available soon. -Rick
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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                Mark Wolf, Jan Chrypinski and many other people helped. I hope more
                of this material will be available soon.
                -Rick
                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Marilee Humason <stasiwa@y...> wrote:
                > Rick,
                > you are a God and we worship at your shrine!!!
                > Any and all translations welcome here!!!!!
                >
                > Thanks for sharing!!
                > Baroness Anastasia
                >
                >
                > --- Rick Orli <orlirva@y...> wrote:
                > > I tried to contact (without luck) the copyright
                > > owner ( the old
                > > soviet era publishing house) to see if I could get
                > > their support and
                > > permission to publish the full book translation (at
                > > this point I
                > > only have the 17th C. chapters finished, about a
                > > third of the
                > > book ). The author Magdalena Bartkiewicz is still a
                > > working
                > > professor at the university of Warclaw and I did
                > > talk to her, she
                > > supports the project. I should try again. I
                > > suppose I could put it
                > > out on the web as an 'unauthorized translation' but
                > > I thought it
                > > would be good to have a paper product with
                > > illustrations, that
                > > libraries could have on their shelves, etc.
                > >
                > > I also just finished a translation of POLSKIE UBIORY
                > > WOJSKOWE z XVI
                > > i XVII w. ) By ZOFIA STEFAÑSKA (polish military
                > > dress)- it is being
                > > proofed. That will be posted.
                > > -Rick
                > > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "ssaucer@j..."
                > > <ssaucer@j...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Turnau seems to be about the only author that
                > > deals with Polish
                > > costume in the English language.
                > > > Are there others?
                > > > Is your translation of Polski Ubior do 1864 Roku
                > > available
                > > commercially?
                > > > Ilijana Krakowska
                > > >
                > > > <From: "Rick Orli" <orlirva@y...>
                > > > <When I translated the somewhat academic Polski
                > > Ubior do 1864 Roku
                > > > <(Polish costume) [snip] A resource I did not have
                > > but wish I did
                > > was <Turnau's Polish dictionary of historic costume
                > > terminology
                > > > <(Turnau, Irena) It is in polish but I expect that
                > > the early
                > > <terminology would be very similiar in both
                > > languages. Your
                > > <translators might find it useful. -Rick
                > >
                > >
              • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                ... Well, yes and no. Polish sources tend to be overly romantic about the Glorious Polish Past. ... Yup. -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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                  > There are political intrusions in some aspects. The russians for
                  > example were forever justifying the occupation of the ukraine by
                  > agressively highlighting (or inventing) ancient cultural
                  > affiliations between moskow and kiew. The russians accuse the poles
                  > of the same, fair enough, but after 1648 Poles did not have the same
                  > incentive to fictionalize history.

                  Well, yes and no. Polish sources tend to be overly romantic about the
                  Glorious Polish Past.

                  > Modern ukranian, lithuanian, and beylorusian nationalistic histories
                  > (some russian and polish ones too) tend to condem all prior
                  > associations with any other nation as part of some sort of evil plot
                  > to quash their ancient natural right of nationalistic statehood ...

                  Yup.

                  --
                  -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                  "That road is paved with librarians,/Bushwhackers, scouts with string
                  Through the labyrinths of information,/Helpers who disappear the moment
                  You reach your destination." -- Julia Alvarez
                • Rick Orli
                  The big problem is Illustrations. There were a hundred or more that come from dozens of places. Text is one thing but gotta have pictures. The original book
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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                    The big problem is Illustrations. There were a hundred or more that
                    come from dozens of places. Text is one thing but gotta have
                    pictures. The original book copyright would include rights to
                    reproduce the pictures. I am not about to spend what could be
                    months of steady work hunting down picture rights
                    -Rick

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Paul W. Goldschmidt" <goldschp@t...>
                    wrote:
                    > What is the copyright date on the book? Prior to 1980, most of
                    the EE
                    > countries were not signatories to the Copyright and they did not
                    recognize
                    > our intellectual property rights so we didn't have to honor theirs.
                    >
                    > If you've got the author's blessings, I'd say you satisfied the
                    ethical angle .
                    >
                    > And if you're not planning to make a penny off of the translation,
                    it
                    > really wouldn't be worth anyone's time to sue you.
                    >
                    > No, I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Select last
                    night. :>
                    >
                  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                    ... How about redrawing them?
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 9, 2004
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                      At 08:26 PM 7/9/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                      >The big problem is Illustrations. There were a hundred or more that
                      >come from dozens of places. Text is one thing but gotta have
                      >pictures. The original book copyright would include rights to
                      >reproduce the pictures. I am not about to spend what could be
                      >months of steady work hunting down picture rights
                      >-Rick

                      How about redrawing them?
                    • Mark S. Wolf (Janushonis, Zikowski)
                      two things Rick the pictures in that book are all either pictures of surviving garment or period iconagraphy and as suh cant be copyrighted its all public
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 23, 2004
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                        two things Rick the pictures in that book are all either pictures of surviving garment or
                        period iconagraphy and as suh cant be copyrighted its all public domain one because its
                        the reproduction of someone elses work and second because its past any copyright period

                        second ya never did send me the final translations I only have the rough drafts
                      • Mark S. Wolf (Janushonis, Zikowski)
                        oh also it wouldent be too hard to substitue most of those drawings with other availible on the internet and again other sourses ya dont need permition to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 23, 2004
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                          oh also it wouldent be too hard to substitue most of those drawings with other availible on
                          the internet and again other sourses

                          ya dont need permition to reproduce the images in other words just the specific order and
                          if ya have permision or no Copyright applies then there is no problem
                        • Susan Koziel
                          Umm... pictures taken of artifacts which are then published are the property of the photographer or the museum that allowed the pictures taken. That s why you
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 23, 2004
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                            Umm... pictures taken of artifacts which are then
                            published are the property of the photographer or the
                            museum that allowed the pictures taken. That's why you
                            pay so much for books on artifacts.

                            It only becomes public domain if the work (book) that
                            published the picture is old enough to be public
                            domain.
                            The photograph is the part that's protected, not the
                            object in the photograh. (it's intellectual property,
                            not copywrite).

                            -Kataryna
                          • Mark S. Wolf (Janushonis, Zikowski)
                            that depends on weather the photographer retained rights to the image or weather they signed any sort of agreement with the museum the museum owns the property
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 23, 2004
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                              that depends on weather the photographer retained rights to the image or weather they
                              signed any sort of agreement with the museum the museum owns the property but retains
                              no copyright on it either way then the second post is true that its just a matter of finding
                              other images
                            • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                              ... In the US, at least, pictures, including photographs, are intellectual property and copyrighted to either the person taking them, or, if it is a work made
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 26, 2004
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                                > that depends on weather the photographer retained rights to the image or weather they
                                > signed any sort of agreement with the museum the museum owns the property but retains
                                > no copyright on it either way then the second post is true that its just a matter of finding
                                > other images

                                In the US, at least, pictures, including photographs, are intellectual
                                property and copyrighted to either the person taking them, or, if it is 'a
                                work made for hire' to the organization who hired them to take the
                                photographs. (If the thing being photographed is also a work of
                                intellectual property, such as a statue, etc. that is within its copyright
                                term, there may be other issues for the photographer.)

                                So, the picture is copyright to the maker of the picture, though the
                                original artifact is out of copyright. As a result, copyright permission
                                is needed if you are going to use someone else's picture of an artifact.

                                --
                                -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                "Oh, don't blame yourself, Mrs. Ogg. I'm sure others will do that for
                                you--" Terry Pratchett, _Carpe Jugulum_
                              • Cezary Wyszynski
                                Hello If anybody is interested, in a bookstore (which is now selling out ) near my home are still some I. Turnau s books available. All in english. - Turnau
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jan 22, 2005
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                                  Hello

                                  If anybody is interested, in a bookstore (which is now selling out ) near my home are still some I. Turnau's books available.
                                  All in english.

                                  - Turnau Irena - Hand-Felting in Europe and Asia from the Middle Ages to the 20th Century
                                  - Turnau Irena - History of Knitting Before Mass Production

                                  sorry for this commercial offer :) but I know that those books are in request :)

                                  cezar wyszynski




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                                  Dear Cezar... are they already sold now? How can I get ahold of them if not? -- Jadwiga ... -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 9, 2005
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                                    Dear Cezar... are they already sold now? How can I get ahold of them if
                                    not? -- Jadwiga

                                    > If anybody is interested, in a bookstore (which is now selling out ) near my home are still some I. Turnau's books available.
                                    > All in english.
                                    >
                                    > - Turnau Irena - Hand-Felting in Europe and Asia from the Middle Ages to the 20th Century
                                    > - Turnau Irena - History of Knitting Before Mass Production
                                    >
                                    > sorry for this commercial offer :) but I know that those books are in request :)
                                    >
                                    > cezar wyszynski
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                    "Information wants to be a Socialist... not a Communist or a
                                    Republican." - Karen Schneider
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