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Re: [sig] Slavic "vich" names

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  • Marilee Humason
    For what it is worth, My grandfather was Bosnian, our name is Kovich however I understand that when he came through, they changed his name, it was originally
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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      For what it is worth, My grandfather was Bosnian, our
      name is "Kovich" however I understand that when he
      came through, they changed his name, it was originally
      "Kovacavich" (kovachavich), so remember the americans
      are stupid and can't spell peoples names.
      Anastasia
      --- Lydia <kaylee@...> wrote:
      > Friends,
      >
      > I have been trying to place my (maiden) family name
      > in period. It is a
      > Croat name (Bosnia Croat from Livno, although
      > borders have shifted many
      > times, obviously). It has gone through many
      > permutations:
      >
      > Leovic
      > Leovich
      > Lijovic (accented c for ch sound)
      > Liovic (accented c for ch sound)
      >
      > The issue I am wondering about was brought up to me
      > by a herald. He
      > indicated to me that a name ending in "vich" meant
      > "son of", which I knew.
      > However, I am a woman. Did this gender distinction
      > really make a
      > difference in period? If so, what is the suffix for
      > "daughter of"?
      >
      > Thank you for sharing anything you know!
      > Lidiya Lijovic
      > MKA Lydia Leovic Towery
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > __________________________________
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      > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
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    • Paul W. Goldschmidt
      A few observations on names and Slavic names in general. ... These are all identical names. Spelling permutations that are this subtle are common in any
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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        A few observations on names and Slavic names in general.

        >times, obviously). It has gone through many permutations:
        >
        >Leovic
        >Leovich
        >Lijovic (accented c for ch sound)
        >Liovic (accented c for ch sound)

        These are all identical names. Spelling permutations that are this subtle
        are common in any period. Once you get back to Medieval times, these are
        common variants -- even within the same document or paragraph for that matter!

        >The issue I am wondering about was brought up to me by a herald. He
        >indicated to me that a name ending in "vich" meant "son of", which I knew.
        > However, I am a woman. Did this gender distinction really make a
        >difference in period? If so, what is the suffix for "daughter of"?

        -vich/-vic/-wicz is one of several masculine "patronymic" endings (-ov/-ow
        and -in/-yn being other common sets). There are feminine forms out there
        of course, but the question in period is complicated. Let's assume for a
        moment (and the assumption could be false) that Leovich is a patronymic
        ("son of Leo"). In that case, at some point in history there was a Leo who
        had sons and daughters and a wife too. But when did this name become a
        surname? And why? Surnames are VERY late constructs in Slavic
        languages. Russian doesn't start getting them until the late 16th
        century. Some of the earliest ones were patronymics that were inherited by
        later descendents of a famous ancestor. Perhaps, there is a very famous
        Leo out there and your ancestors chose to be known as the "descendants of
        Leo". In English, a similar history lies behind names like Johnson
        (there's a famous John back there somewhere) or Richardson. [BTW, Leovic
        could also mean "lion-like" or "the descendents of a lion" but we won't
        open that can of tuna right now]

        If Leo is alive and your Dad or husband you might want to feminize the
        patronymic (so that you are the "daughter/wife of" rather than the "son of"
        Leo). But if Leovic has already passed into use as a surname (and this
        would be very very late period) then you would just want to feminize the
        ending.

        I can't speak for Balkan naming practices (someone else will have to give
        you that), but you really have two options:
        1) You're related to an actual Leo
        2) You're a descendent of a Leo and it is your family name already.
        [For those who are interested, in Russian, #1 would be Leova or Leovna; #2
        would be Leovicha]

        So, which one are you? :)

        -- Paul
      • Nenad Lockic
        Variants Leovich Liovich are same family name but in different dialect (Liovich is ikavica dialect common in Dalmatia). Lijovich could be the wrong
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 14, 2004
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          Variants

          Leovich
          Liovich

          are same family name but in different dialect (Liovich is "ikavica" dialect
          common in Dalmatia).

          Lijovich could be the wrong transcript because in usually speak between two
          vocals often occurs a voice similar to "mute j" (correct: bio = he/she/it
          was; incorrect = bijo; etc.).
          Also, Lijovich could came from "lija" (lisica = fox).

          Liovich also could be Slavic transcript of English reading of Leovich.

          Family names came very late. And only Bulgarian and Macedonian peoples of
          south Slavic have variants for woman's family names (Levov, Levski > Levova,
          Levska, Levovska). Unofficial variants in 19. century at Serbs (sometimes
          still using in common speak) were -chka (for married women) and -cheva (for
          still unmarried girls): Petrovichka, Petrovicheva.

          I think that in medieval times south Slavic women (as first I think on
          Croats and Serbs) subscribes only with names, relation and related status:
          her name (Maria, Helena, etc.), relation (the daughter, the wife, the
          widow), his name (Petar, Ivan, etc.), his status and/or title (the lord of,
          etc.). Croat nobles put "pl." (plemeniti) before the family names (for
          example: pl. Leovich).

          So, if you wish to translate family name from later to earlier time when it
          not existed, I think that is better to not make any special suffix for
          famine family name. If you wish, then you can use Leovicheva (similar to
          other Slavic people). I think that it is not good solution.

          Regards,
          Nenad
        • Kythe
          ... I ve also been told -ski is a title of Nobility but that predominately it was added to peoples names in the 19th century because it was the fashion/
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 14, 2004
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            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Nenad Lockic" <lockey@v...> wrote:
            > Variants
            >
            >And only Bulgarian and Macedonian peoples of
            > south Slavic have variants for woman's family names (Levov, Levski
            > Levova, Levska, Levovska).

            I've also been told -ski is a title of Nobility but that
            predominately it was added to peoples names in the 19th century
            because it was the fashion/ Probably 1 in 10 -ski's are legitimate
            nobility.

            Unofficial variants in 19. century at Serbs (sometimes
            > still using in common speak) were -chka (for married women) and -
            cheva (for
            > still unmarried girls): Petrovichka

            Ok on another tangent, would I be correct in this breakdown of
            Szubielka

            Szuba - is the Rootname
            iel- unsure of this part
            ka- perhaps Son of? (there's no ch, so I thought that might change
            the breakdown).
          • Kresimir Zeravica
            ... That is interesting but how about some of the prominent noble families and also non noble families that have come from tribal names and or names of places.
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 14, 2004
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              >> Family names came very late. And only Bulgarian and
              > Macedonian peoples of
              > south Slavic have variants for woman's family names

              That is interesting but how about some of the
              prominent noble families and also non noble families
              that have come from tribal names and or names of
              places. For instance I know for sure that around the
              14oo or so my last name Zeravica was the last name of
              two related tribes from around Boka Kotorska one
              "tribe" named Martinovi Zeravice and the other
              Zeravice...the two were split from one presumably by
              Martins part of the family leaving to the Knin area
              (Vrlika to be exact) and starting life there for that
              part of the family. And as far as the other example
              concerned Nikola Subic Zrinski and Fran Krsto
              Frankopan (Mid 17 century for both) as two of the most
              prominent politycal martirs of Croatia of all times.
              Nikola Subic Zrinski has two last names ...First one
              is Subic which is the name of the Tribe he came out of
              and then Zrinski which is the name where his tribe
              lived. Fran Krsto Frankopan has a first, middle and
              last name, the last name is the name of his Tribe.

              And then Matja Gubec the leader of the major "Peasant
              Revolt" from the 1400 as well, a commoner that was sat
              on a searing hot throne in Zagreb and crowned with a
              equally searing iron crown and then he was quartered
              for everyone to see what fait leaders of revolts will
              have...but he had a last name probably tribe name.

              Lijovic could be a name of one of the "lesser" tribes
              in Croatia from who knows when or some family from
              Livno one of the royal cedes of the early Croatian
              Kingdom...or indeed it could be as you said that it
              might be derivet from: the Like a fox, in croatian
              culture the fox is a shrewd, wise and dangerous
              opponent to have.

              > I think that in medieval times south Slavic women
              > (as first I think on
              > Croats and Serbs) subscribes only with names,
              > relation and related status:
              > her name (Maria, Helena, etc.), relation (the
              > daughter, the wife, the
              > widow), his name (Petar, Ivan, etc.), his status
              > and/or title (the lord of,
              > etc.). Croat nobles put "pl." (plemeniti) before
              > the family names (for
              > example: pl. Leovich).

              The added plemeniti to a name is used only when a
              commoner achieves the status of smaller nobilty
              through masterful work in whatever field or some great
              favor to a noble or whatever...I have a buddy that is
              actually from such a family and he still has the
              certificate given to his ancestor :) it is really
              cool.

              Katarina Zrinska...the wife of Nikola Subic Zrinski
              was from a hungarian noble family, but she is refered
              to as Katarina Zrinska. So Lidija's name would be
              probably Lidija Lijovicha with the meaning of "Lidija
              od Lijovica" that would be translated possibly as
              belonging to the Lijovic tribe.










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            • Lydia Towery
              Thank all of you SO much for helping me with this... In summary, do you think I can get Lidija Lijovicha past a Herald? I usually add de Ragusa to the end
              Message 6 of 7 , Jun 16, 2004
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                Thank all of you SO much for helping me with this...

                In summary, do you think I can get Lidija Lijovicha past a Herald? I
                usually add "de Ragusa" to the end of my name, as I wanted to take a
                little creative liberty with the placement of my personae (even
                though I know the family name is from Livno). I have been to
                Dubrovnik and know more about it in period than I do about Livno.
                St. Blaise is the patron saint of both spinners and Ragusa, which I
                liked too.

                Thanks for the advice. Hope to see you all at Pennsic!

                --Lydia

                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Kresimir Zeravica <tonicwgin@y...> wrote:
                >
                > >> Family names came very late. And only Bulgarian and
                > > Macedonian peoples of
                > > south Slavic have variants for woman's family names
                >
                > That is interesting but how about some of the
                > prominent noble families and also non noble families
                > that have come from tribal names and or names of
                > places. For instance I know for sure that around the
                > 14oo or so my last name Zeravica was the last name of
                > two related tribes from around Boka Kotorska one
                > "tribe" named Martinovi Zeravice and the other
                > Zeravice...the two were split from one presumably by
                > Martins part of the family leaving to the Knin area
                > (Vrlika to be exact) and starting life there for that
                > part of the family. And as far as the other example
                > concerned Nikola Subic Zrinski and Fran Krsto
                > Frankopan (Mid 17 century for both) as two of the most
                > prominent politycal martirs of Croatia of all times.
                > Nikola Subic Zrinski has two last names ...First one
                > is Subic which is the name of the Tribe he came out of
                > and then Zrinski which is the name where his tribe
                > lived. Fran Krsto Frankopan has a first, middle and
                > last name, the last name is the name of his Tribe.
                >
                > And then Matja Gubec the leader of the major "Peasant
                > Revolt" from the 1400 as well, a commoner that was sat
                > on a searing hot throne in Zagreb and crowned with a
                > equally searing iron crown and then he was quartered
                > for everyone to see what fait leaders of revolts will
                > have...but he had a last name probably tribe name.
                >
                > Lijovic could be a name of one of the "lesser" tribes
                > in Croatia from who knows when or some family from
                > Livno one of the royal cedes of the early Croatian
                > Kingdom...or indeed it could be as you said that it
                > might be derivet from: the Like a fox, in croatian
                > culture the fox is a shrewd, wise and dangerous
                > opponent to have.
                >
                > > I think that in medieval times south Slavic women
                > > (as first I think on
                > > Croats and Serbs) subscribes only with names,
                > > relation and related status:
                > > her name (Maria, Helena, etc.), relation (the
                > > daughter, the wife, the
                > > widow), his name (Petar, Ivan, etc.), his status
                > > and/or title (the lord of,
                > > etc.). Croat nobles put "pl." (plemeniti) before
                > > the family names (for
                > > example: pl. Leovich).
                >
                > The added plemeniti to a name is used only when a
                > commoner achieves the status of smaller nobilty
                > through masterful work in whatever field or some great
                > favor to a noble or whatever...I have a buddy that is
                > actually from such a family and he still has the
                > certificate given to his ancestor :) it is really
                > cool.
                >
                > Katarina Zrinska...the wife of Nikola Subic Zrinski
                > was from a hungarian noble family, but she is refered
                > to as Katarina Zrinska. So Lidija's name would be
                > probably Lidija Lijovicha with the meaning of "Lidija
                > od Lijovica" that would be translated possibly as
                > belonging to the Lijovic tribe.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________
                > Do you Yahoo!?
                > Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
                > http://messenger.yahoo.com/
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