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Re: [sig] help with early 16th Century cossack garb

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  • MoxFool@aol.com
    In a message dated 6/3/2004 2:37:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, daisydld@hotmail.com writes: Hello - I m having some difficulties in researching early cossack
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 3, 2004
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      In a message dated 6/3/2004 2:37:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
      daisydld@... writes:
      Hello -

      I'm having some difficulties in researching early cossack garb so I
      can get my own constructed! Can anyone direct me to resources that
      would provide information about what was worn circa 1520 - 1560? Most
      of what I've been able to find so far refers to 17th century and
      later. References are made to early Cossacks, but usually that's
      about it.

      I'm not particular about region, (Don, Dniepper, Zaporizhya etc). Any
      information or suggestions would be gratefully welcomed.

      YIS

      Marka

      Have you tried the Osprey book "Polish Armies 2"?

      Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, House Griffin's Moon
      Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
      Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R., Sword Brother


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • wyldflower68
      No, I haven t looked at that one - I ll give it a try. Thanks so much :) Marka [Edited by moderator. Clip your posts.]
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 14, 2004
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        No, I haven't looked at that one - I'll give it a try. Thanks so
        much :)

        Marka


        [Edited by moderator. Clip your posts.]


        > Have you tried the Osprey book "Polish Armies 2"?
        >
        > Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, House Griffin's Moon
        > Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
        > Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R., Sword Brother
      • Tim Nalley
        I like that one too. Have you tried the Bayda Books one listed in the SIG Bibliography? Its secondary and more than a litle derivative but very illustrative.
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 15, 2004
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          I like that one too. Have you tried the Bayda Books
          one listed in the SIG Bibliography? Its secondary and
          more than a litle derivative but very illustrative.
          Perfect for the beginner, with the advantage of a wide
          base of clothing styles, at least half of which is
          17th century but who's counting?
          'dak

          ps. Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski: I've really enjoyed your
          commentary on Zagloba's Tavern.

          --- wyldflower68 <daisydld@...> wrote:
          > No, I haven't looked at that one - I'll give it a
          > try. Thanks so
          > much :)
          >
          > Marka
          >
          >
          > [Edited by moderator. Clip your posts.]
          >
          >
          > > Have you tried the Osprey book "Polish Armies 2"?
          > >
          > > Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, House Griffin's Moon
          > > Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The
          > Shire of Talonval
          > > Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R., Sword
          > Brother
          >
          >




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        • MoxFool@aol.com
          In a message dated 6/15/2004 10:02:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mordakus@yahoo.com writes: ps. Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski: I ve really enjoyed your commentary on
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 15, 2004
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            In a message dated 6/15/2004 10:02:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            mordakus@... writes:
            ps. Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski: I've really enjoyed your
            commentary on Zagloba's Tavern.

            Thanks 'dak! IMO, we in the historical recreation (not a typo!) hobby need to
            stick together. :D

            Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski, House Griffin's Moon
            Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
            Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R., Sword Brother
            You read about all these Terrorists who hung around on these expired visas,
            some for as long as 10-15 years. Now, compare that to Blockbuster; if you are
            two days late with a video, those people are all over you. I think we should
            put Blockbuster in charge of Homeland Security...


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mark S. Wolf (Janushonis, Zikowski)
            Acording to Irena Turnau I history of dress in central and eastern europe from the 16th to the 18th C , chapter VIII the dress of the ukrainians and
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 17, 2004
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              Acording to Irena Turnau I "history of dress in central and eastern europe from the 16th
              to the 18th C", chapter VIII the dress of the ukrainians and belorussians,

              section 1 a cultural borderland.

              ...the relations and drawings left by foreign travellers did not always differentiate between
              various types of costumes, with garments being cut in the simplest way from homespun,
              undyed woollen or linen, the regional differences showed in headgear, colours and
              accessories.

              section 2 the dress of the ukrainian nobility and burghers

              (if you want this section ask other wise I really dont feel like typing it sorry)

              section 3 cossack dress.

              cossack garments were as diversified as the social status of their owners. they formed a
              kind of military uniform, or manifested the wearer's wish to assimilate into the Polish
              nobility, although their everyday version could be more easily associated with folk
              costumes. in the 16th c. the simpleist cossack outfit consisted of a shirt, a pair of linen
              bloomers, a caftan and a cap. better clothes were plundered during campaigns in
              moldavia, walachia and turkey, or in Polish manors and burghers' homes. having killed a
              tartar, a cossack "stripped him of his shoes, clothes and headgear"6. A sixteenth c
              traveller noted that cossacks "like to deck themselves with garments robbed from their
              neighbours, though normally they wear rather ordinary clothes"7. the fact that luxurious
              garments were relatively easy to obtain led to ostentatious squander, which was
              considered the special cossack chic. a jew from Kahorlik near Human descrided cossacks
              wearing "navy-blue bloomers with gold galloon, white satin zupans (polish under kaftan),
              crimson Kontuszes (Polish over Kaftans) with hanging facings, ilk sashes with gold fringes
              and high caps of grey sheep fleece". after a feast the cossacks destroyed the expensive
              garments by dipping them into birch tar and left in their ordinary sermegas (pesants
              kaftan of simple cut sewn of homespun woolen) and shirts tallowed against insects 8.

              In the 16th c. the specific features of cossack dress became conspicuous. cossacks
              incorporated into the Polish army were alloted some woolen for uniform outfits. woolen
              caftans were more suitable for the army than waist-long tartar shirts, woollen breeches or
              bloomers, cotton-quilted jackets and sheepskin coats. the cossack military outfit
              developed in the 17th c. thewide bloomers originated from turkish dress, while caps with
              wide, soft tops and fur trimming might have resulted from imitating russian headgear.
              shirts with small collars, the girdled zupans, and kapotas ( polish and ukrainian; men's
              and woman's hooded coat, or men's garment worn over the zupan in 17th - 19th c.,
              usually sewn of woollen cloth with unslashed sleeves and folds down the waist at the back,
              trimmed with braid.) with elongated pockets and passementerie trimming and the delias
              (most common polish over kaftan late 16th early 17th c.) with silk sashes used bt officers
              were close to Polish national dress. preserved cossack garments resemble the kontusz
              and the zupan in cut 9. cossack boots, found at the field of the Beresteczko battle (faught
              in 1651 during a cossack anti-polish uprising) have high tops extended at the front and
              flat soles with rounded toes 10.

              ...cossacks' wives were village girls. W. Beauplan described a bride's attire from the 17th
              c., which was a brown woollen gown stiffened with whalebone and decorated with ribbons
              13. it seems to be a burgher dress, applird quite incidentally, rather than a typical rite
              vestment.
            • Susan Koziel
              ... Yes :) Please :) Pretty Please? I d really appreciate it, but if you haven t the time I ll understand. -Kataryna Contact me off list about this. Thanks.
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 18, 2004
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                --- "Mark S. Wolf (Janushonis, Zikowski)"
                <presswolf@...> wrote:

                > section 2 the dress of the ukrainian nobility and
                > burghers
                >
                > (if you want this section ask other wise I really
                > dont feel like typing it sorry)
                >

                Yes :)
                Please :)
                Pretty Please?
                I'd really appreciate it, but if you haven't the time
                I'll understand.
                -Kataryna
                Contact me off list about this. Thanks.
              • Mark S. Wolf (Janushonis, Zikowski)
                ... The meiaeval Ruthenian dress, affected by Byzantine and tartar costumes, has been presented in the previous chapter. In the 16th c. the decisive factor
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 18, 2004
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                  > > section 2 the dress of the ukrainian nobility and burghers

                  The meiaeval Ruthenian dress, affected by Byzantine and tartar costumes, has been
                  presented in the previous chapter. In the 16th c. the decisive factor was the influence of
                  the Polish national dress, which was transferred by Polish settlers and wealthy burghers.
                  quite often runaway peasants robbed Polish outfits, which helped them disguise their class
                  status in ruthenia 3. the men wore knee length shirts, linen underpants and breeches
                  which resembled eastern bloomers. over the shirt they wore a caftan, usually with sleeves
                  and a stand-up collar. those better-off had several coats which were worn one over
                  another. the zupan reached down to the feet and was tight-waisted, usually with a turn-
                  down collar; in the 18th c. it became considerably shorter. The Kapota was trimmed with
                  passementerie bands and widened with gussets arranged in three folds at the back... the
                  fur coats like bekiesza (polish - a fur lined winter overcoat of loose cut, with folds at the
                  back, worn since end of the 16th c.), tuluo (rus, ukr - a fur lined peasant overcoat of
                  simple cut), or oponcha (ukr - fur lined overcoat) modelled after the yepancha (rus - a
                  waterproof coat made of woollen cloth or felt), resembled russian garments. some caps
                  were similar to the Polish ones with fur trimming, some to the russian treukh (Rus - men's
                  cap made of three parts, covering the nape and ears, sewn most often from pelt). the
                  outfit was completed by hugh boots 4. abundant passementerie decorations could indicate
                  some hungarian influences.

                  Women's chemises were crinkled and widened with gussets, their sleeves and collars were
                  adorned with embroidery or drawn-work/hem-stitch. russian ponezas (Rus - a folk skirt
                  made of two aprons) were not worn, instead long skirts decorated with bands or galloon
                  were in use. other popular garments were corsets with flaps at the waist, jackets called
                  katankas and coats resembling those worn by men, for example A. Rigelman's drawing
                  shows a coat with hanging, decorative sleeves. sayan was a skirt made of patterned
                  fabric, worn by townswomen with a bestorg (ukr - women's corset following western
                  fashion), that is a sleeveless corset trimmed with galloon or metal lace 5. the diverse
                  influences crossing at that area did not interfere with the development of costumes which
                  exhibited a certain degree of originality.
                • Tim Nalley
                  Greetings Fellow SIG Fanatics from dak: I am officially recruiting teachers for the 2004 Known World Costumers Symposeum to be held September 24-26, 2004 in
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 22, 2004
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                    Greetings Fellow SIG Fanatics from 'dak:
                    I am officially recruiting teachers for the 2004
                    Known World Costumers Symposeum to be held September
                    24-26, 2004 in Canton, Ohio. What I need are
                    instructors in non-western europeon costuming and
                    accessories. ie. Eastern Europe through Asia to the
                    Pacific Ocean. I've left a full 1/3 of class hours
                    open to this category in the Expert, Accessories and
                    beginner tracts, with all the non-europen tract hours.
                    Beginners classes are especially sought after for the
                    beginners class tracts.
                    I need a class title, class time peiod needed,
                    your entire SCA name amd a 2 sentence description. If
                    I don't know you or haven't seen your class, the event
                    autocrat wants sponsorship by a peer from your area
                    and contact info. for continuity. A bit paronoid but I
                    only serve. If needs be, send me your class manual and
                    I'll sponsor you as a peer.
                    Time is of the essence though as I'm also posting
                    to several other non-european costumer sites. I've
                    seen the excellent work that many in SIG are doing and
                    I would be happy and obnoxiously proud to include our
                    members on the teaching Roster. I'll also accept
                    references to other artisans that you feel may have an
                    interest in teaching at an Inter-Kingdom event,
                    outside the usual Regional War setting.



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                  • Tim Nalley
                    ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 23, 2004
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                      > Greetings Fellow SIG Fanatics from 'dak:
                      > I am officially recruiting teachers for the
                      > 2004
                      > Known World Costumers Symposeum to be held September
                      > 24-26, 2004 in Canton, Ohio. What I need are
                      > instructors in non-western europeon costuming and
                      > accessories. ie. Eastern Europe through Asia to the
                      > Pacific Ocean. I've left a full 1/3 of class hours
                      > open to this category in the Expert, Accessories and
                      > beginner tracts, with all the non-europen tract
                      > hours.
                      > Beginners classes are especially sought after for
                      > the
                      > beginners class tracts.
                      > I need a class title, class time peiod needed,
                      > your entire SCA name amd a 2 sentence description.
                      > If
                      > I don't know you or haven't seen your class, the
                      > event
                      > autocrat wants sponsorship by a peer from your area
                      > and contact info. for continuity. A bit paronoid but
                      > I
                      > only serve. If needs be, send me your class manual
                      > and
                      > I'll sponsor you as a peer.
                      > Time is of the essence though as I'm also
                      > posting
                      > to several other non-european costumer sites. I've
                      > seen the excellent work that many in SIG are doing
                      > and
                      > I would be happy and obnoxiously proud to include
                      > our
                      > members on the teaching Roster. I'll also accept
                      > references to other artisans that you feel may have
                      > an
                      > interest in teaching at an Inter-Kingdom event,
                      > outside the usual Regional War setting.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
                      > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
                      >




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