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Re[2]: [sig] I've been asked for help w/ N Slavic feast

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  • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
    Greetings! ... Well... Pouncy is really wrong sometimmes, but _some_kind_ of fryoing is mentioned in the text, chapter 42, about lamb parts. ...boils the
    Message 1 of 20 , May 25, 2004
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      Greetings!

      > In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:20:34 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
      > jenne@... writes:
      > Hm... I'm confused. The Domostroi mentions frying, and several texts I've
      > looked at mention that the beehive-type stove was ideal for frying.
      > That Pouncy...whoever told her that she can translate Domostroi well enough,
      > was wrong!

      Well... Pouncy is really wrong sometimmes, but _some_kind_ of fryoing is mentioned in the text, chapter 42, about lamb parts.

      ...boils the kidneys or, stuffing them with something, will fry them...
      Though, I'd say traditional stove was not so much used for frying. Documantarily we can say they made pancakes, yes - half baking, half frying them. The frying in the Domostroy could have been right the influence of Western cooking (frying ofn a pan) or, vice versa, Oriental (frying in the Kazan - as was the origin of the Ukrainian treatment of onions in Borsch and Schi - frying them with bacon fat before adding to the pot). All in all, fried meat - literally fried, on a pan, was not typical of the period Russia, and the Domostroy marks right the end of it.

      For 10 century, baked meat was mentioned inn the passage about Svyatoclav's habits (Povest Vremennykh Let, afair).

      In the Domostroy there's an expressive passage in chapter 51 - "and meat, if there's some for dinner - ..." - meat was not eaten every day, Russia was not much of a cattle-growing country. Meat was not considered a basic food of a meal, as several scholars mention. Soup suggested great economizing on meat, and was indeed the dish #1 for Russians - pokhlebka, Schi, Oukha are all but ancient terms, the latter even general-Slavic (Jugoslavian Juha for clear soup, etc).

      In other words, imho fried meat belongs to a short period of developing foreign trade in Russia in 1500s, when Ivan IV could really consider marrying Elisabeth of England. The earlier period baked meat, not fried it in fat on a pan.

      Bye,
      Alex.
    • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
      ... This is interesting! Baked meats (oven-roasting as we would call it in modern America) don t seem to be very typical of other medieval cultures, because of
      Message 2 of 20 , May 25, 2004
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        > For 10 century, baked meat was mentioned inn the passage about Svyatoclav's habits (Povest Vremennykh Let, afair).
        >
        > In other words, imho fried meat belongs to a short period of developing foreign trade in Russia in 1500s, when Ivan IV could really consider marrying Elisabeth of England. The earlier period baked meat, not fried it in fat on a pan.
        >

        This is interesting! Baked meats (oven-roasting as we would call it in
        modern America) don't seem to be very typical of other medieval cultures,
        because of the difficulty of running ovens for the purpose. Meats baked in
        pastry were a staple, though.

        Were the Russian baked meats wrapped in pastry, or some other covering?
        And were they cooked in a bread oven, or under a cover?

        --
        -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
        "Never cook for or sleep with anyone who routinely puts you down."
        -- Naomi Wolfe.
      • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
        ... Yes, this was the reference, along with something Pouncy translates as: She rolls the small [fresh fish] in flour and fries them. ... Frying meat in a
        Message 3 of 20 , May 25, 2004
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          > Well... Pouncy is really wrong sometimmes, but _some_kind_ of fryoing is mentioned in the text, chapter 42, about lamb parts.
          >
          > ...boils the kidneys or, stuffing them with something, will fry them...

          Yes, this was the reference, along with something Pouncy translates as:
          "She rolls the small [fresh fish] in flour and fries them."

          > Though, I'd say traditional stove was not so much used for frying.
          >Documantarily we can say they made pancakes, yes - half baking, half
          >frying them. The frying in the Domostroy could have been right the
          >influence of Western cooking (frying ofn a pan) or, vice versa, Oriental
          >(frying in the Kazan - as was the origin of the Ukrainian treatment of
          >onions in Borsch and Schi - frying them with bacon fat before adding to
          >the pot). All in all, fried meat - literally fried, on a pan, was not
          >typical of the period Russia, and the Domostroy marks right the end of
          >it.

          Frying meat in a pan isn't that typical of Western period cookery, either,
          except for fish... so that's no surprise.

          I do have a question about 'if there is meat for dinner...' could that
          mean, 'if it is a meat day' as Pouncy translates it? I'm entirely unclear
          as to which days were meatless days in the Russian Orthodox 16th century
          calendar...

          --
          -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
          "Never cook for or sleep with anyone who routinely puts you down."
          -- Naomi Wolfe.
        • lente@cableone.net
          a beehive stove?? I have heard of beehive ovens as in baking bread... kathws ... From: Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise To:
          Message 4 of 20 , May 25, 2004
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            a beehive stove?? I have heard of beehive ovens as in baking bread...

            kathws
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise" <jenne@...>
            To: <sig@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 6:56 AM
            Subject: Re: [sig] I've been asked for help w/ N Slavic feast


            > > Baked or boiled chicken/meat (pork was more of a status), frying is OOP
            as well as grilling :-).
            >
            > Hm... I'm confused. The Domostroi mentions frying, and several texts I've
            > looked at mention that the beehive-type stove was ideal for frying.
            >
            > --
            > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
            > "Never cook for or sleep with anyone who routinely puts you down."
            > -- Naomi Wolfe.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Alexey Kiyaikin
            Greetings jadwiga! ... JZJH Yes, this was the reference, along with something Pouncy translates as: JZJH She rolls the small [fresh fish] in flour and fries
            Message 5 of 20 , May 26, 2004
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              Greetings jadwiga!

              Tuesday, May 25, 2004, 10:29:02 PM, you wrote:

              >> Well... Pouncy is really wrong sometimmes, but _some_kind_ of fryoing is mentioned in the text, chapter 42, about lamb parts.
              >>
              >> ...boils the kidneys or, stuffing them with something, will fry them...
              JZJH> Yes, this was the reference, along with something Pouncy translates as:
              JZJH> "She rolls the small [fresh fish] in flour and fries them."
              I'll look it up.

              JZJH> Frying meat in a pan isn't that typical of Western period cookery, either,
              JZJH> except for fish... so that's no surprise.
              Grilling/frying on the open fire was not typical for Russia either.
              baking in... (coils? ashes? what remains of the fire when it is still
              burning withoiut flames - damn mental block...), yes.

              JZJH> I do have a question about 'if there is meat for dinner...' could that
              JZJH> mean, 'if it is a meat day' as Pouncy translates it? I'm entirely unclear
              JZJH> as to which days were meatless days in the Russian Orthodox 16th century
              JZJH> calendar...
              about 160-200 days of the year. Thus, reallly no great habit of eating
              meat every day. But lots of opportunities to specialize in river fish
              and grains.


              --
              Bye,
              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
            • Tracy Kremer
              ... Ah, baking in the coals. That is interesting to know. Especially useful for the SCA. Any idea what they wrapped or contained the items to be baked in the
              Message 6 of 20 , May 26, 2004
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                --- Alexey Kiyaikin <Posadnik@...> wrote:

                > baking in... (coils? ashes? what remains of the fire
                > when it is still
                > burning withoiut flames - damn mental block...),

                Ah, baking in the coals. That is interesting to know.
                Especially useful for the SCA.
                Any idea what they wrapped or contained the items to
                be baked in the coals in?

                Eluned

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              • John-Joseph Bober
                ... I ve actually done this. I don t know if the technique I used is correct to the period we study, but here s the idea. We stuffed whole chickens with
                Message 7 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                  > Ah, baking in the coals. That is interesting to know. Especially
                  > useful for the SCA. Any idea what they wrapped or contained the
                  > items to be baked in the coals in?

                  > Eluned

                  I've actually done this. I don't know if the technique I used is
                  correct to the period we study, but here's the idea. We stuffed
                  whole chickens with fruit, and then wrapped them in paper (like paper
                  bags) which had been oiled. Then, we wrapped that in "brick mix".
                  My father literally went down to a brick manufacturing place and
                  asked for some of the mixture...just add water, and voila! We mixed
                  it to the consistancy of clay. Actually, clay works for this as
                  well. We threw these chickens into the coals that were roasting the
                  pig, and in a few hours we had quite the feast.
                  Believe it or not, this technique is outlined in a recipe by Jeff
                  Smith (the Frugal Gourmet) in his "Three Ancient Cuisines" book.

                  Jan
                • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                  ... I don t think I asked my question properly. Let me try asking this a different way: on which days was meat forbidden by Russian Orthodox rules? In Western
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                    > JZJH> I do have a question about 'if there is meat for dinner...' could that
                    > JZJH> mean, 'if it is a meat day' as Pouncy translates it? I'm entirely unclear
                    > JZJH> as to which days were meatless days in the Russian Orthodox 16th century
                    > JZJH> calendar...
                    > about 160-200 days of the year. Thus, reallly no great habit of eating
                    > meat every day. But lots of opportunities to specialize in river fish
                    > and grains.
                    >

                    I don't think I asked my question properly. Let me try asking this a
                    different way: on which days was meat forbidden by Russian Orthodox rules?
                    In Western Europe, during Lent, Advent, and on Wednesday, Friday, and
                    Saturdays along with some other days, meat was forbidden... these are
                    sometimes called meatless days or fish days as opposed to meat days when
                    meat was allowed.

                    --
                    -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                    "Never cook for or sleep with anyone who routinely puts you down."
                    -- Naomi Wolfe.
                  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
                    Jadwiga, I think Aleksei understood your question just fine. The Orthodox calendar is full of fasts and days when particular foods cannot be eaten. It would
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                      Jadwiga,

                      I think Aleksei understood your question just fine. The Orthodox calendar
                      is full of fasts and days when particular foods cannot be eaten. It would
                      not surprise me in the least that there is a prohibition on consuming meat
                      on 60-70% of the year.

                      Predslava would be able to say more on this, I am sure.

                      -- Paul

                      At 10:25 AM 5/27/2004 -0400, you wrote:
                      > > about 160-200 days of the year. Thus, reallly no great habit of eating
                      > > meat every day. But lots of opportunities to specialize in river fish
                      > > and grains.
                      > >
                      >
                      >I don't think I asked my question properly. Let me try asking this a
                      >different way: on which days was meat forbidden by Russian Orthodox rules?
                      >In Western Europe, during Lent, Advent, and on Wednesday, Friday, and
                      >Saturdays along with some other days, meat was forbidden... these are
                      >sometimes called meatless days or fish days as opposed to meat days when
                      >meat was allowed.
                    • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                      ... Wouldn t surprise me, either. I just want to know _what_ days it was prohibited on in our period of study. -- -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                        > I think Aleksei understood your question just fine. The Orthodox calendar
                        > is full of fasts and days when particular foods cannot be eaten. It would
                        > not surprise me in the least that there is a prohibition on consuming meat
                        > on 60-70% of the year.

                        Wouldn't surprise me, either. I just want to know _what_ days it was
                        prohibited on in our period of study.

                        --
                        -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                        "Never cook for or sleep with anyone who routinely puts you down."
                        -- Naomi Wolfe.
                      • Jadwiga Zajaczkowa / Jenne Heise
                        ... *nod* Baking in the coals, yes. I remember reading that flatbreads were baked this way, too. Were they put in earthenware/ceramic baking pots, wrapped in
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                          > JZJH> Frying meat in a pan isn't that typical of Western period cookery, either,
                          > JZJH> except for fish... so that's no surprise.
                          > Grilling/frying on the open fire was not typical for Russia either.
                          > baking in... (coils? ashes? what remains of the fire when it is still
                          > burning withoiut flames - damn mental block...), yes.

                          *nod* Baking in the coals, yes. I remember reading that flatbreads were
                          baked this way, too. Were they put in earthenware/ceramic baking pots,
                          wrapped in dough, wrapped in leaves, or otherwise?

                          --
                          -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                          "Never cook for or sleep with anyone who routinely puts you down."
                          -- Naomi Wolfe.
                        • Alexey Kiyaikin
                          Greetings Jadwiga! ... JZJH I don t think I asked my question properly. Let me try asking this a JZJH different way: on which days was meat forbidden by
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                            Greetings Jadwiga!

                            Thursday, May 27, 2004, 6:25:46 PM, you wrote:

                            >> JZJH> I do have a question about 'if there is meat for dinner...' could that
                            >> JZJH> mean, 'if it is a meat day' as Pouncy translates it? I'm entirely unclear
                            >> JZJH> as to which days were meatless days in the Russian Orthodox 16th century
                            >> JZJH> calendar...
                            >> about 160-200 days of the year. Thus, reallly no great habit of eating
                            >> meat every day. But lots of opportunities to specialize in river fish
                            >> and grains.
                            >>

                            JZJH> I don't think I asked my question properly. Let me try asking this a
                            JZJH> different way: on which days was meat forbidden by Russian Orthodox rules?
                            JZJH> In Western Europe, during Lent, Advent, and on Wednesday, Friday, and
                            JZJH> Saturdays along with some other days, meat was forbidden... these are
                            JZJH> sometimes called meatless days or fish days as opposed to meat days when
                            JZJH> meat was allowed.
                            Those were all-Christian fast days.
                            Orthodox church had it more. I do not remember all the fast days, but
                            one of them was special Old Russian invention, (afair) the st. Peter fast, specially to
                            block the Rusalia [holiday]weeks that went from June Rusalia to July Rusalia
                            days. The fast was for about three weeks of June, from June
                            Rusalia (can't remember exactly, about 10-14 June) to the last days of
                            the month, including the Kupala day, which was one of the major
                            pre-Christian holidays of the year.


                            --
                            Bye,
                            Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                          • Alexey Kiyaikin
                            Greetings ... JZJH *nod* Baking in the coals, yes. I remember reading that flatbreads were JZJH baked this way, too. Were they put in earthenware/ceramic
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 27, 2004
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                              Greetings

                              Thursday, May 27, 2004, 6:54:05 PM, you wrote:

                              >> JZJH> Frying meat in a pan isn't that typical of Western period cookery, either,
                              >> JZJH> except for fish... so that's no surprise.
                              >> Grilling/frying on the open fire was not typical for Russia either.
                              >> baking in... (coils? ashes? what remains of the fire when it is still
                              >> burning withoiut flames - damn mental block...), yes.
                              JZJH> *nod* Baking in the coals, yes. I remember reading that flatbreads were
                              JZJH> baked this way, too. Were they put in earthenware/ceramic baking pots,
                              JZJH> wrapped in dough, wrapped in leaves, or otherwise?

                              As with the Svyatoslav case, I'd suggest just digging it into coals as
                              it is with potatoes (potatoes baked in coals is a VERY popular outdoor
                              meal, like grilling in the USA :-) ). Pokhlebkin claims only two ways
                              of cooking meat: boiling and baking. Ceramic pots of different shape ARE
                              mentioned anywhere though I never dug deep enough to find out the design of the
                              earliest kitchen devices. Wouldn't say they could use dough,
                              agriculture was not too productive to spend wheat/rhye on that. About
                              the leaves, can't say.

                              Baking fish and -!- birds (chicken, goose, etc) in clay - must be a very early
                              way. Clay "dough" is spread over the fish that is NOT stripped of its
                              scales, or the birds that are never feathered. Then it's dug into the
                              coals. When the clay becomes
                              rock-hard and the dish is ready, all the scales/feathers go with the
                              clay they stuck to, and the ready-to-eat meal remaiuns.
                              Hunters/fishermen on major rivers often did that in XIX and XX centuries.


                              --
                              Bye,
                              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
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