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Costuming Questions

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  • IrinaRadokovaia@aol.com
    Alright then, if no one has any objections to my new-like questions. Primarily right now I am concerned with costuming questions. As no one to my knowledge
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 28, 2004
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      Alright then, if no one has any objections to my new-like questions. Primarily right now I am concerned with costuming questions. As no one to my knowledge does Russian in the Barony of Elfsea (Ansteorra), I want to do this right, but I have become rather confused as to what is period and what is not.

      Commonly, you see pictures such as this, The Frog Tsarevna, or this, The Unsmiling Princess, both of which seem to depict the Rubakha, but in a more fitted form. Both of these pictures are somewhat closer (or as close as I could find without having to scan anything at the moment) to the pictures you find on laquered boxes in St. Petes or Novgrod today. Something of an underdress, white in color with some edging or bead-work, and then a more elaborate outer garment similar to the Sarafan, except it seems more like a t-tunic like shirt, either cut like at the elbows, or having the upper edge cut with the bottom tapering like that of the dress in The Frog Tsaravna. Is this period?

      Everything that I've read so far talks about the multiple layers of clothing, of which I can't really recall the names of at hte moment. Silly me is trying to think of all of this and the stuff I've been craming for finals, all at the same time!

      Back to the point . . .

      The other set of clothing I have heard discussed multiple times is muck like what is depicted in the picture, Three Tsarevnas of the Underground Kingdom, there is the Rubahka, and an outer garment, which I am guessing is a version of the Sarafan again, with the collar and head-dress.

      Between these two am I just way too confused, trying to make things way more complicated than it really is in taking in all this stuff? Or what?

      Secondly, is the issue of head-coverings of some nature. I have read numerous referances to headdress, but the nature of it keeps on changing. At some times a source will say it is a band of colored and embroidered material over the brow or in metal with the hair let loose (for a maiden) with or without a veil to cover the deadly hair. While still yet there are articles saying that large headdresses are correct, yet others dating them to the 19th centuries.

      I think I have covered my immediate garbing questions, other than preference questions.

      My grandmother is in the antique business and came across several rolls of velvet, the best ones of a green hue. Would it be acceptable to make a Rubaka out of green velvet?

      Hmmm, that is it I'm afraid. I must now away to be a good college student and cram for my 8am final tomorrow.

      Many thanks and wishes of long life,
      Cid/Irina Radokovaia
    • Tim Nalley
      My Lady, have you tried Predslava in Ansteorra? She is very well versed in early period. There s also a great deal of information in the Russian knowledge
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 30, 2004
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        My Lady, have you tried Predslava in Ansteorra? She is
        very well versed in early period. There's also a great
        deal of information in the Russian knowledge pages on
        the Slavic Interest Group website. As for the velvet
        its entirely period for the later Moscovite period
        (during the Renaissance in Western Europe) though a
        bit hotter than cotton or linen, which were period
        fabrics. I would take my guide from the articles in
        the newsletter and contact those authors, as a start.

        Mordak

        IrinaRadokovaia@... wrote:
        > Alright then, if no one has any objections to my
        > new-like questions. Primarily right now I am
        > concerned with costuming questions. As no one to my
        > knowledge does Russian in the Barony of Elfsea
        > (Ansteorra), I want to do this right, but I have
        > become rather confused as to what is period and what
        > is not.
        >
        > Commonly, you see pictures such as this, The Frog
        > Tsarevna, or this, The Unsmiling Princess, both of
        > which seem to depict the Rubakha, but in a more
        > fitted form. Both of these pictures are somewhat
        > closer (or as close as I could find without having
        > to scan anything at the moment) to the pictures you
        > find on laquered boxes in St. Petes or Novgrod
        > today. Something of an underdress, white in color
        > with some edging or bead-work, and then a more
        > elaborate outer garment similar to the Sarafan,
        > except it seems more like a t-tunic like shirt,
        > either cut like at the elbows, or having the upper
        > edge cut with the bottom tapering like that of the
        > dress in The Frog Tsaravna. Is this period?
        >
        > Everything that I've read so far talks about the
        > multiple layers of clothing, of which I can't really
        > recall the names of at hte moment. Silly me is
        > trying to think of all of this and the stuff I've
        > been craming for finals, all at the same time!
        >
        > Back to the point . . .
        >
        > The other set of clothing I have heard discussed
        > multiple times is muck like what is depicted in the
        > picture, Three Tsarevnas of the Underground Kingdom,
        > there is the Rubahka, and an outer garment, which I
        > am guessing is a version of the Sarafan again, with
        > the collar and head-dress.
        >
        > Between these two am I just way too confused, trying
        > to make things way more complicated than it really
        > is in taking in all this stuff? Or what?
        >
        > Secondly, is the issue of head-coverings of some
        > nature. I have read numerous referances to
        > headdress, but the nature of it keeps on changing.
        > At some times a source will say it is a band of
        > colored and embroidered material over the brow or in
        > metal with the hair let loose (for a maiden) with or
        > without a veil to cover the deadly hair. While
        > still yet there are articles saying that large
        > headdresses are correct, yet others dating them to
        > the 19th centuries.
        >
        > I think I have covered my immediate garbing
        > questions, other than preference questions.
        >
        > My grandmother is in the antique business and came
        > across several rolls of velvet, the best ones of a
        > green hue. Would it be acceptable to make a Rubaka
        > out of green velvet?
        >
        > Hmmm, that is it I'm afraid. I must now away to be
        > a good college student and cram for my 8am final
        > tomorrow.
        >
        > Many thanks and wishes of long life,
        > Cid/Irina Radokovaia
        >
        >





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      • Yana
        Aaassaddfiseufbigfrrrrggghhhh!!!!!!! Clip the posts! Clip the posts! Clip the posts! Clip the posts! Clip the posts! --Yana, who apologizes for
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 30, 2004
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          Aaassaddfiseufbigfrrrrggghhhh!!!!!!!

          Clip the posts! Clip the posts! Clip the posts! Clip the posts! Clip
          the posts!

          <whimper>

          --Yana, who apologizes for being stressed out. It isn't you guys, really.
        • Cid
          ... I asked several people and no one knew of anyone else that did a personia like what I was interested in. I m affraid that I have never heard of Predslava.
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 30, 2004
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            > My Lady, have you tried Predslava in Ansteorra?

            I asked several people and no one knew of anyone else that did a
            personia like what I was interested in. I'm affraid that I have
            never heard of Predslava.

            I've read a good deal of the information on the web site, I would
            never have been so absent-minded as to ignore those, but it seems
            that I must have read too many things, not a few of them by people
            who didn't really know what they were talking about as they
            contradict a lot of what I have found elsewhere.

            --Ira
          • Tim Nalley
            Greetings, Well, it s a fluid field right now and that s precisely what I tell folks in my own costuming class. What s tue this year could change next year as
            Message 5 of 11 , May 3, 2004
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              Greetings,
              Well, it's a fluid field right now and that's
              precisely what I tell folks in my own costuming class.
              What's tue this year could change next year as more
              work is translated into english for the wider world
              market. Plus, soviet research was politically driven
              so much of it is currently being revised by the
              original authors themselves, again for the world wide
              market.
              What, exactly, is your period and location, as of
              now? Maybe I can help?
              'dak
              --- Cid <IrinaRadokovaia@...> wrote:
              >
              > > My Lady, have you tried Predslava in Ansteorra?
              >
              > I asked several people and no one knew of anyone
              > else that did a
              > personia like what I was interested in. I'm affraid
              > that I have
              > never heard of Predslava.
              >
              > I've read a good deal of the information on the web
              > site, I would
              > never have been so absent-minded as to ignore those,
              > but it seems
              > that I must have read too many things, not a few of
              > them by people
              > who didn't really know what they were talking about
              > as they
              > contradict a lot of what I have found elsewhere.
              >
              > --Ira
              >
              >
              >





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            • Cid
              I wanted to clear up some misconceptions I had, and another person was gracious enough to lend her knowledge. At this moment my immediate questions have been
              Message 6 of 11 , May 3, 2004
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                I wanted to clear up some misconceptions I had, and another person
                was gracious enough to lend her knowledge. At this moment my
                immediate questions have been satisfied, though I'm sure that now
                school is finished till September, I'll come up with a dozen more.
                You offer is appreciated though.

                --Irina
              • redlocks999
                I hear your frustration with trying to be as accurate as possible. Unfortunately it s not always possible or practical I mean who is going to use (or can
                Message 7 of 11 , May 6, 2004
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                  I hear your frustration with trying to be as accurate as possible.
                  Unfortunately it's not always possible or practical I mean who is going to use (or can
                  afford) real silk brocade all the time? I personally work with linen and wool for the most
                  part. Take a look at your persona for hints as to what they might have worn. For instance
                  what century are you most interested in? Was velvet available during that time? Are you
                  middle class, a peasant, city dweller, merchant or a country woman? All wore and had
                  access to different colors, fabrics and furs ( I use Faux Fur.) My persona also has been
                  somewhat difficult to research not a lot ( at least in my experience thus far) was written
                  about women in the early centuries. I try not to focus (to much) on the historical accuracy
                  of my work but the quality of my sewing and believe me that's hard enough! : )
                  Anyway your not alone join a local costuming guild or sewing circle I have found people
                  are always willing to offer advice.

                  Happy Sewing, Julia 0 ; )


                  http://medievalrussia.freeservers.com/dress.html
                  http://sca-garb.freeservers.com/articles/sarafan.html
                • Kinjal of Moravia
                  ... ................................................................ The more I research (including personal letters)into clothing styles along the Varengian
                  Message 8 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "redlocks999" <redlocks999@y...> wrote:
                    > I hear your frustration with trying to be as accurate as possible.
                    > Unfortunately it's not always possible or practical
                    ................................................................

                    The more I research (including personal letters)into clothing styles
                    along the Varengian River Routes (Caspian to Baltic Seas), the more
                    I get a sense that styles defined as 'cultural' or 'proper' applied
                    more to celebrations and formal (religious) event wear and not to
                    what was actually worn day-to-day. People wore what was available,
                    comfortable and practical, drawing from dozens of diverse cultures.
                    So "accurate" may be an affectation -- which is fine for a hobby,
                    but not something to get hung up on.

                    This is similar to eating Chinese food in the USA. What we
                    consider 'normal fair' is actually rare celebration food in most of
                    China, yet, if one used most cookbooks (hundreds of years from now)
                    as a guide, you would get a completely false impression of what was
                    actually eaten.

                    just a view from a 'non-Slavic' person

                    kinjal
                  • Kresimir Zeravica
                    ... Well in my opinion you are right...the garb as we call it would be the one suit for festivities and weddings and fairs and so on, in a peasant s household
                    Message 9 of 11 , May 19, 2004
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                      --- Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...> wrote:
                      > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "redlocks999"
                      > <redlocks999@y...> wrote:
                      > > I hear your frustration with trying to be as
                      > accurate as possible.
                      > > Unfortunately it's not always possible or
                      > practical
                      >
                      ................................................................
                      >
                      > The more I research (including personal letters)into
                      > clothing styles
                      > along the Varengian River Routes (Caspian to Baltic
                      > Seas), the more
                      > I get a sense that styles defined as 'cultural' or
                      > 'proper' applied
                      > more to celebrations and formal (religious) event
                      > wear and not to
                      > what was actually worn day-to-day. People wore what
                      > was available,
                      > comfortable and practical, drawing from dozens of
                      > diverse cultures.

                      Well in my opinion you are right...the garb as we call
                      it would be the one suit for festivities and weddings
                      and fairs and so on, in a peasant's household that is.
                      But on the other hand the variety of cultural
                      influence varies from place to place. Most of the
                      people in those times had no outside intercultural
                      exchanges due to a lack of movement. Some people, or
                      better say most people, never left their homestead.
                      Well maybe going to town 5-10 kilometers away, for a
                      fair on 1-5 days a year would be the exeption. Cities
                      would be another story however, especially if it was a
                      coastal trading spot, for obvious reasons. And also
                      lets not forget that certain fashions have broken the
                      cultural "barrier". From as early as the classical
                      period (roman empire) you have the Dalmatica...or the
                      overcoat that was worn by the Illiric tribes of
                      Dalmatia that stayed as a fashionable garment all the
                      way into the 14 hundreads (if I am not mistaking) all
                      over the Medditeranean, with only minor changes to it.
                      Also the Krackaw's, or shoes that have been the hight
                      of fashion all over europe in the 12-13 hundreads.


                      > just a view from a 'non-Slavic' person
                      >
                      > kinjal
                      >
                      >





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                    • Cid
                      Ah, I would like to thank everyone so far on their input. I ve been doing a lot of reading *rubs eyes* and have put somethings together from what I ve read.
                      Message 10 of 11 , May 20, 2004
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                        Ah, I would like to thank everyone so far on their input. I've been
                        doing a lot of reading *rubs eyes* and have put somethings together
                        from what I've read. I would like to say a special thank you to
                        Sfandra Dmitrieva iz Chernigova for all of her help. She emailed me
                        privatly and has answered a lot of my questions. Hopefully with
                        Warlord getting underway next week I'll get some pictures taken so
                        that I can get some oppinions on them. So far the people here are
                        very impressed.

                        Thanks again,
                        Irina Radokovaia
                      • R.J. Clarke
                        Greetings!! Absolutely. In my various trips to the region I have travelled through much of the Balkan region and up to Hungary and found that much of the
                        Message 11 of 11 , May 20, 2004
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                          Greetings!!

                          Absolutely.

                          In my various trips to the region I have travelled through much of the
                          Balkan region and up to Hungary and found that much of the "cultural" event
                          clothes in the Serbian, Slovakian, Croatian and Hungarian areas are very
                          similar in design. I specifically exclude Bosnia and Herczegovina from this
                          list since it has serious Muslim tones for clothing (go figure) but you
                          could not tell them apart from any of the others listed here by looking at
                          them day to day.

                          The main differences I noted in the few museums (castles) that I visited
                          were in the materials and color. The "rich" would have bright fine woven
                          clothing while the "peasents" would have plain grey or other natural,
                          locally produced color, in generally wool or other course material.

                          For best or possibly easier research on the clothing, I might suggest
                          checking out Italian on the Western side, German in the north, Greek or
                          Turkish in the south (or for Muslim based Slav) and may be Russia through
                          the Hermitage museum.




                          Gospodar Robert
                          R.J.
                          DRAGOONS!!!
                          audax et celer



                          >I get a sense that styles defined as 'cultural' or 'proper' applied
                          >more to celebrations and formal (religious) event wear and not to
                          >what was actually worn day-to-day. People wore what was available,
                          >comfortable and practical, drawing from dozens of diverse cultures.

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