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Help with research

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  • queensno2000
    Dear list, I am a new member of your list. I am research for an SCA persona from the coast of Dalmatia and I have run into a impasse. There is a word that I
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 21, 2004
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      Dear list,
      I am a new member of your list. I am research for an SCA persona from
      the coast of Dalmatia and I have run into a impasse. There is a word
      that I keep stumbling over and can't find out what it is or where it
      came from. The word is "schiavonetto". What I have found out so far?
      It is described in the following "Dressed in a particular sort of
      gown of silk or very thin cloth that is called a schiavonetto, (a
      Dalmatian-style dress fashionable in Venice in the fifteenth and
      sixteenth centuries" What I am research is that Dalmatian style
      dress. So far this and the Cesare Vecellio plates is all I have. Does
      anyone have any ideas where I can look next? I would be most
      grantful.

      Talia
    • Linda
      Greetings Talia, The word schiavonetto means: a lightweight, cool, silk or linen gown used in the sun, as a woman s sunning dress. Worn when sitting on a
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 21, 2004
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        Greetings Talia,

        The word "schiavonetto" means: "a lightweight, cool, silk or linen gown
        used in the sun, as a woman's sunning dress. Worn when sitting on a
        loggia, sun-bleaching one's hair, for example. (Originally from
        schiave, slave)"

        This is from "Dressing Renaissance Florence" by Carole C. Frick,
        published by the Johns Hopkins University Press, 2002.

        There's a print or drawing by Bertelli from about 1490 or so of a woman
        on a rooftop combing her hair over a special "shield" that looks like a
        platter that she put on her head. She is wearing a loose gown that looks
        a bit like a chemise. I've tried to find it but do you think I can
        remember where I've seen it? Course not!
        If I find it I'll email it...or perhaps someone else can put their
        finger on it.
        Maria P

        Dear list,
        I am a new member of your list. I am research for an SCA persona from
        the coast of Dalmatia and I have run into a impasse. There is a word
        that I keep stumbling over and can't find out what it is or where it
        came from. The word is "schiavonetto". What I have found out so far?
        It is described in the following "Dressed in a particular sort of
        gown of silk or very thin cloth that is called a schiavonetto, (a
        Dalmatian-style dress fashionable in Venice in the fifteenth and
        sixteenth centuries" What I am research is that Dalmatian style
        dress. So far this and the Cesare Vecellio plates is all I have. Does
        anyone have any ideas where I can look next? I would be most
        grantful.

        Talia
      • Kresimir Zeravica
        Heyya, and welcome to the list; sorry but I cant really help you explaining what a Schiavonetto is. I have had so many problems and nothing but problems
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 22, 2004
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          Heyya, and welcome to the list;
          sorry but I cant really help you explaining what a
          Schiavonetto is. I have had so many problems and
          nothing but problems finding almost anything from
          Croatia and Dalmatia garb-wise. I have recently even
          gone to Croatia and tryed to dig something out but all
          I have found was that noone really knows (historians
          and archeologists that is). Noone was really that
          inerested in garb to actually go and research it and
          put it in a book. The first major reason for that,
          that pops in my mind is war. Not just this recent one
          but all of those wars that have decimated the once
          great kingdom of Croatia that numbered 22 million
          people in the years of 700-1000 AD to the 4.5 million
          people it numberes today (more less)...you know that
          kind of thing keeps you busy thinking about more
          immediate things, like how to live another day and so
          on :). All the garb that i have come across was going
          back only to the 1900. I do however have some leads on
          what to look for on another trip and what places to
          visit...but that will have to wait for a while.

          Which part of Dalmatia are you interested in? I
          myself am thinking about Zadar or Dubrovnik...still
          cant decide though :).

          I could tell you stuff about the term Schiavoni if
          you are interested to hear about it.


          --- queensno2000 <queensno2000@...> wrote:
          > Dear list,
          > I am a new member of your list. I am research for an
          > SCA persona from
          > the coast of Dalmatia and I have run into a impasse.
          > There is a word
          > that I keep stumbling over and can't find out what
          > it is or where it
          > came from. The word is "schiavonetto". What I have
          > found out so far?
          > It is described in the following "Dressed in a
          > particular sort of
          > gown of silk or very thin cloth that is called a
          > schiavonetto, (a
          > Dalmatian-style dress fashionable in Venice in the
          > fifteenth and
          > sixteenth centuries" What I am research is that
          > Dalmatian style
          > dress. So far this and the Cesare Vecellio plates is
          > all I have. Does
          > anyone have any ideas where I can look next? I would
          > be most
          > grantful.
          >
          > Talia
          >
          >
          >
          >





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        • queensno2000
          Yes, Please anything will be helpful. It s nice to know that what very little I have found is just that, very little. I m studing the Senji area late period.
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 22, 2004
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            Yes, Please anything will be helpful. It's nice to know that what
            very little I have found is just that, very little. I'm studing the
            Senji area late period. Since in 1550's it was under Venician rule,
            I've been looking from Venice to the Dalmatia Coast. I haven't found
            much about day in the life stuff. Right know I'm piling
            though "Croatia in the Middle Ages" 600 gloriaous pages of history
            from 900-1200 a little to early but in the preface they mention that
            is didn't change to much in the rural area. They stayed with there
            traditions. Now if I can find a book on that, I would be doing good.
            It also states that this is the first book in a series, it was
            printed in 1999 and was translated by a London pulisher. So maybe we
            will have another soon.

            I can't travel to the country right now, so I've been doing a lot of
            inter-library loans on books and museum hunts on line. That has been
            pretty much my only source at the moment. And of course, the group,
            hopefully. Any leads that you would be willing to share will be
            welcome. The local Libraian has been having a grand old time getting
            me these books.

            Thank you
            Altaliana (Talia) de Segna

            [Please cilp your posts]
          • Tracy Kremer
            ... OK, this is sort of at a tangent, but I thought I d mention this. Authors often have better resources than we realize. There is a fantasy author, she and
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 23, 2004
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              --- queensno2000 <queensno2000@...> wrote:
              > Yes, Please anything will be helpful.

              OK, this is sort of at a tangent, but I thought I'd
              mention this.
              Authors often have better resources than we realize.
              There is a fantasy author, she and two others
              collaborated recently on an "altenative history/alt
              reality/fantasy" book that involved Venice and other
              states, in the 1500's. Perhaps Mercedes Lackey, Eric
              Flint, or Dave Freer could help you out.... oh, and
              the book won't be much good as a source, as I
              mentioned, it is a fantasy, but it is called "Shadow
              of the Lion".

              Eluned



              =====

              IN 2004 - JUNE 4-6th - COMING TO CHARLOTTE - (drum roll, please,)http://www.secfi.org/concarolinas

              for good webcomics, use these links!
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            • Kresimir Zeravica
              Do you speak Croatian? cause if you did I could give you the web sites that I have found so far about croatian history and such...not great all and all but ok
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 23, 2004
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                Do you speak Croatian? cause if you did I could give
                you the web sites that I have found so far about
                croatian history and such...not great all and all but
                ok and free :)
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Hmmm Senj and Venice.
                Well, Venice had many a claim on Dalmatian grounds but
                they havenet had much control over Senj especially in
                the late period (1500 onwards). The reason for that
                were the "Senjski Uskoci" or the way the Venetians
                called them "Scocchi". Literally translated it means
                the ones that jump in and out which was quite fitting.

                They were officially loyal to the Haubsburg of Austria
                payed for garrisoning a few forts around Senj, they
                wore the Haupsburg two headed eagle on their banners,
                but they were in fact loyal to themselves alone.
                Pirates one and all, they sailed the Adriatic all the
                while fighting Turks and Venetians alike. They looted
                from anyone else they encountered as well, but those
                were just targets of opportunity.

                One account was given from a Venetian author in the
                1550 more less...it said that the "Scocchi" were
                unbelievable in anything they did...they would
                assemble a few ships and when they left their homes
                all they had was the clothes on their back, a light
                blankit, about as much food as they would need for
                tomorrow as they would hunt or loot for more than
                that, well all that and a few trusty and well used
                weapons of course. When they were kissing their wives
                goodbye they didnt know how long they would be staying
                out. It could be for two days or 6 months at a time.


                They were silent, deadly, lightning fast and cunning
                like a bunch of foxes. They had spies in every fleet
                that entered the Adriatic and contacts in most cities
                on the coast. They sailed in fleets of small boats
                that had no sails and housed about 10-15 men per boat,
                the larger vassels were big enough for about 20-25 men
                but were used as provision and loot transporters
                mostly. They died their fleets red and black and wore
                the same colors on their garb (uniform really). The
                colors stood for death and blood. They would usually
                sail when no captain worth his own wouldn't dare to,
                such as during storms, in the dead of night and so on.
                They would just appear out of nowhere jumping over the
                ship sides killing and looting and then dissapeared
                into the night in an a mere instant. They drove the
                Venetians absolutely crazy.

                It is intersting to see how infamous they were at the
                time especially once you realize that there were never
                more than 400-500 fighting Uskok's at any one time.
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Well so much about that for now...I'll talk to you
                later about one instant that talks about how the
                Uskoks escaped from the Venetian cluthes and made it
                back home to safety. I actually have some
                reconstructions of a typical garb from these guys from
                around the 1500. but I will need to scan the page from
                the book and then post it...which will take a while
                since I dont have a scanner :(...and same goes for
                reconstructions of the Uskok boats.

                If you need something just ask and I will try to dig
                it out for you :) since it is so cool to find someone
                intersted in the same things like this.





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              • queensno2000
                ... No, saddly I don t. And I haven t looked into and area teacher. I think it limits me. I have picked thru every web site I can get my hands on. Some of them
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 26, 2004
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                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, Kresimir Zeravica <tonicwgin@y...> wrote:
                  > Do you speak Croatian?
                  No, saddly I don't. And I haven't looked into and area teacher. I
                  think it limits me. I have picked thru every web site I can get my
                  hands on. Some of them have an English translator. The ones that
                  don't I pick though all the picture.

                  cause if you did I could give
                  > you the web sites that I have found so far about
                  > croatian history and such...not great all and all but
                  > ok and free :)
                  > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  > Hmmm Senj and Venice.
                  > Well, Venice had many a claim on Dalmatian grounds but
                  > they havenet had much control over Senj especially in
                  > the late period (1500 onwards). The reason for that
                  > were the "Senjski Uskoci" or the way the Venetians
                  > called them "Scocchi". Literally translated it means
                  > the ones that jump in and out which was quite fitting.

                  I did fiond this our after I picked my name. I did happen to get a
                  hold of "The Uskiks of Senji" By Bracewell and "History if Dalmatia"
                  by Parga. They helped alot. Thanks to inter-library loans. I burn a
                  copy for my own use. But It's been a little while since I read them.
                  I'll need to read them again.

                  "Scocchi"? Know there is something I didn't know. Ok, got to write
                  that in my research file. Thank you. Anytime you have more to share
                  is fine with me.

                  >
                  > If you need something just ask and I will try to dig
                  > it out for you :) since it is so cool to find someone
                  > intersted in the same things like this.
                  >
                  Oh my, I think this is so cool, I wanted to pick a subject that not
                  many people had selected. Boy, I didn't realize it was going to be
                  such a maze. But I'm up for it ! It's nice to fine someone who shares
                  my Passion.

                  Talia
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________
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                  > Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
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                • Tracy Kremer
                  I have recently realized a dilemma. My ancestor whose name I m trying to research is Russian, and the spelling we have must be the Polish spelling, since it
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 26, 2004
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                    I have recently realized a dilemma. My ancestor whose
                    name I'm trying to research is Russian, and the
                    spelling we have must be the Polish spelling, since it
                    is not in cyrillic, and follows the rules the poles
                    use in their pronunciations. And he lived in the
                    Ukraine. And the folks who mailed out mail to my
                    grandfather who immigrated to here in america, did so
                    by having others write the letters, in german, polish,
                    Russian, maybe other languages, and sent them out
                    through cities from Moscow to someplace in Austria.

                    Egad!
                    (even though we have a return address, it is the name
                    of a city, Lviv [with four different spellings thru
                    history], and they lived on a farm.... in the district
                    of Lviv!]

                    The only places I've actually _found_ the name so far
                    is in American Coal-mining towns in Pennsylvania....
                    on the gravestones..... and american census results,
                    sadly curtailed.

                    So my dilemma is, how do I proceed? If I ever have
                    enough money to pay someone for this, is there any way
                    I could contact some reputable, educated personages in
                    Russia capable of doing the research?

                    Probably nobody here can help with this, but I begin
                    to see the irony/humor of this situation, and thought
                    I'd share it....
                    This is what one gets, with "itchy feet", the
                    wandering habit; and I've inherited the tendency, too!

                    ;)
                    Eluned

                    =====

                    IN 2004 - JUNE 4-6th - COMING TO CHARLOTTE - (drum roll, please,)http://www.secfi.org/concarolinas

                    for good webcomics, use these links!
                    http://sluggy.com http://www.schlockmercenary.com http://www.kevinandkell.com







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                  • Susan Koziel
                    Actually it could also be Austrian, German, Polish, or Russian. I m from a Heavily Ukrainian area of Canada... we have people who do ancestory searchs out
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 26, 2004
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                      Actually it could also be Austrian, German, Polish, or
                      Russian.

                      I'm from a Heavily Ukrainian area of Canada... we have
                      people who do ancestory searchs out here. I can ask
                      around if you'd like. (please email me off the SIG
                      list).

                      One of my grand parents was near Lviv.
                      My Grandfather had an Austrian passport, since his
                      town was part of Austria for a time (pre WWII).
                      My Grandmother a Polish one.

                      The problem is that the area that is Ukrainian in
                      custom has been held by a huge number of other
                      countries over the years.
                      -Kataryna
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