Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Russian garb?

Expand Messages
  • Eagle Claw
    Thanks Predslava! I knew somebody would have the plural handy. :) -Vasilla (who really needs an extra hour each day just to study Russian...)
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks Predslava! I knew somebody would have the plural handy. :)

      -Vasilla (who really needs an extra hour each day just to study Russian...)


      >In a message dated 11/5/1999 8:25:59 AM Central Standard Time,
      >badhare@... writes:
      >
      > > ubruses (ubri?) (the veils)
      >
      >Hey, it's not Latin! :-)
      >
      ><ubrus> [oo-BROOS], plural <ubrusy> [oo-BROO-sy].
    • Tina M Bovee
      ... So what are the veil styles available to a 10th to 12th century Rus from the region of Kiev? Most of the time veils drive me crazy and I m looking for
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        Predslava writes:
        > Married women hid their hair completely.
        > {snip}
        > Only married women were restricted in their choice.
        >
        So what are the veil styles available to a 10th to
        12th century Rus from the region of Kiev? Most
        of the time veils drive me crazy and I'm looking for
        more options.

        Aleksandra Drakonova
        newly married

        "Reputation is what other people know about
        you. Honor is what you know about yourself."
        - LM Bujold, _A Civil Campaign_


        ___________________________________________________________________
        Get the Internet just the way you want it.
        Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
        Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
      • MHoll@xxx.xxx
        In a message dated 11/5/1999 10:11:41 AM Central Standard Time, ... As I tell my students: language learning is like sports: the more you train, the better and
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          In a message dated 11/5/1999 10:11:41 AM Central Standard Time,
          badhare@... writes:

          > Vasilla (who really needs an extra hour each day just to study Russian...)

          As I tell my students: language learning is like sports: the more you train,
          the better and faster you go. Would you consider a workout of less than 1/2
          hour?

          But in fact, anyone who spends *some* time *every* day doing Russian is way
          up in my list.

          Predslava,
          who can't manage her time, either (but don't tell them that)
        • MHoll@xxx.xxx
          In a message dated 11/5/1999 3:47:27 PM Central Standard Time, ... My interpretation of what I ve observed is thus: First, a skull cap under the veil to gather
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 11/5/1999 3:47:27 PM Central Standard Time,
            tbovee@... writes:

            > So what are the veil styles available to a 10th to
            > 12th century Rus from the region of Kiev? Most
            > of the time veils drive me crazy and I'm looking for
            > more options.
            >

            My interpretation of what I've observed is thus:

            First, a skull cap under the veil to gather up all the loose strands (and
            keep longer hair up and away for those who need to do so).

            Then:
            1) a headband to secure the veil to; over it a veil secured with straight
            pins (some nice pearl-headed ones at the bridal section of your favorite
            fabric store). Yep, they stay in place, and nope, they don't poke. And I
            usually need only one or two re-fittings, especially when it gets pulled by
            little hands.

            2) a hat, kokoshnik, kika, or other headdress that can hold the veil down.
            Needs more re-fittings, but then it's easier to put on/take off.

            As for the shape, the pictures I've seen seem to represent long, scarf-like
            veils. Let the ends fall down your back, then bring them towards the front
            right to left, crossing them at the nape. The "scarf" should be long enough
            to fall below your shoulders.

            Or square, that works too, and a grave find apparently shows the remains of a
            square veil with weighted corners and beads all over.

            One of my veils is a thick, satiny silk and the other is silk gauze, doubled
            and weighted with neat metal beads that are so close to dig finds it doesn't
            matter they're from a garage sale!

            Predslava
            (who loves her veils, whereas Masha prefers to go modernly bare-headed, even
            (especially?) in church)
          • Diane S. Sawyer
            ... {snip} ... {snip} ... Is a kika the pillbox style hat? Tasha
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              --- MHoll@... wrote:
              {snip}
              > 2) a hat, kokoshnik, kika, or other headdress that
              > can hold the veil down.
              {snip}
              >
              > Predslava
              > (who loves her veils, whereas Masha prefers to go
              > modernly bare-headed, even
              > (especially?) in church)
              >

              Is a kika the pillbox style hat?

              Tasha
            • MHoll@xxx.xxx
              In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:22:54 PM Central Standard Time, ... Sometimes it seems so, sometimes not. I haven t been able to make quite certain. I ve seen
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:22:54 PM Central Standard Time,
                tasha_medved@... writes:

                > Is a kika the pillbox style hat?

                Sometimes it seems so, sometimes not. I haven't been able to make quite
                certain. I've seen "horned" headdresses called "kika", but usually it refers
                to the pillbox hat.

                I thought I'd throw in the word so that it would be known that "kika" is just
                another headdress.

                Predslava,
                fussy about definitions
              • Britta Parsons
                I belive the white dangly things hanging from the kokoshniks as described by Yana are called riazny. I do mine out of pearls rather than mother of pearl
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 5, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  I belive the white dangly things hanging from the kokoshniks as described
                  by Yana are called "riazny." I do mine out of pearls rather than mother
                  of pearl beads, but that's me. I think Mordak mentions the riazny in one
                  of his handouts.

                  Vasilisa Myshkina
                  ___________________________________________________________________
                  Get the Internet just the way you want it.
                  Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
                  Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
                • timbo@xxxxxx.xxx
                  The horned kika are usually from the Tartar areas SE of Moscow around Kostroma, Murom, Nizhy-Novgorod, etc. I personally believe that the most beautiful
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 7, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    The horned kika are usually from the Tartar areas SE of Moscow
                    around Kostroma, Murom, Nizhy-Novgorod, etc. I personally believe
                    that the most beautiful peasant class garments come from this same
                    area though. Just stunning.
                    'dak




                    From: MHoll@...
                    Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:38:42 EST
                    To: sig@onelist.com
                    Reply-to: sig@onelist.com
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Russian garb?

                    From: MHoll@...

                    In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:22:54 PM Central Standard Time,
                    tasha_medved@... writes:

                    > Is a kika the pillbox style hat?

                    Sometimes it seems so, sometimes not. I haven't been able to make quite
                    certain. I've seen "horned" headdresses called "kika", but usually it refers
                    to the pillbox hat.

                    I thought I'd throw in the word so that it would be known that "kika" is just
                    another headdress.

                    Predslava,
                    fussy about definitions

                    Slavic Interest Group homepage:
                    http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
                  • Christine Jacobs
                    I ve seen the expression horned headdress around, but I m not exactly sure what they look like. Anybody know where to find a picture of one online? --
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 7, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I've seen the expression "horned headdress" around,
                      but I'm not exactly sure what they look like. Anybody
                      know where to find a picture of one online?

                      -- Kseniia

                      --- timbo@... wrote:
                      > From: timbo@...
                      >
                      > The horned kika are usually from the Tartar areas
                      > SE of Moscow
                      > around Kostroma, Murom, Nizhy-Novgorod, etc. I
                      > personally believe
                      > that the most beautiful peasant class garments come
                      > from this same
                      > area though. Just stunning.
                      > 'dak
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: MHoll@...
                      > Date: Fri, 5 Nov 1999 20:38:42 EST
                      > To: sig@onelist.com
                      > Reply-to: sig@onelist.com
                      > Subject: Re: [sig] Russian garb?
                      >
                      > From: MHoll@...
                      >
                      > In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:22:54 PM Central
                      > Standard Time,
                      > tasha_medved@... writes:
                      >
                      > > Is a kika the pillbox style hat?
                      >
                      > Sometimes it seems so, sometimes not. I haven't been
                      > able to make quite
                      > certain. I've seen "horned" headdresses called
                      > "kika", but usually it refers
                      > to the pillbox hat.
                      >
                      > I thought I'd throw in the word so that it would be
                      > known that "kika" is just
                      > another headdress.
                      >
                      > Predslava,
                      > fussy about definitions
                      >
                      > Slavic Interest Group homepage:
                      > http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
                      >
                      > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor
                      > ----------------------------
                      >
                      > GRAB THE GATOR! FREE SOFTWARE DOES ALL THE
                      > TYPING FOR YOU!
                      > Tired of filling out forms and remembering
                      > passwords? Gator fills in
                      > forms and passwords with just one click! Comes with
                      > $50 in free coupons!
                      > <a href=" http://clickme.onelist.com/ad/gator4
                      > ">Click Here</a>
                      >
                      >
                      ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Slavic Interest Group homepage:
                      > http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
                      >


                      =====
                      ____________________________________________________________
                      Kseniia Smol'nyanina mka: Christine Jacobs
                      of Mountain Freehold chrstnj@...

                      "I shall never permit myself to stoop so low as to hate another man." - Booker T. Washington

                      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/3079
                    • LiudmilaV@xxx.xxx
                      In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:06:10 AM Pacific Standard Time, badhare@hotmail.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 9, 1999
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:06:10 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                        badhare@... writes:

                        << several of the "ubri" that I've encountered have
                        been attached to the kokoschniks in a way that still exposes the
                        hair >>

                        I am not being picky here -- but "ubrus" is not Latin, it is a singular noun.
                        Plural is "ubrusy"

                        It is my understanding (imperfect) that ubrus was not a part of a maiden's
                        headger, though some maidens wore "fata" -- veil, in late period.

                        Liudmila
                      • LiudmilaV@xxx.xxx
                        In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:14:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, MHoll@aol.com writes:
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 9, 1999
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 11/5/1999 7:14:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, MHoll@...
                          writes:

                          << Hey, it's not Latin! :-)

                          <ubrus> [oo-BROOS], plural <ubrusy> [oo-BROO-sy]. The <y> indicates the
                          weird
                          vowel that you can learn to pronounce by sticking a pen crosswise in your
                          mouth as far as your lips will stretch and saying "eee". It puts your tongue
                          back in your mouth where it needs to go. Trust me. I've taught enough
                          language classes to certify that this method works.

                          Predslava >>

                          Woops, sorry for my previous repetitious post. As I said, I have to much
                          mail accumulated over 5 days here. I will pay attention now, or better yet
                          go to bed.

                          Liudmila
                        • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                          In a message dated 11/9/1999 11:37:33 PM Central Standard Time, ... does not seem to be a period word. Or did you actually find it in a primary source?
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 10, 1999
                          • 0 Attachment
                            In a message dated 11/9/1999 11:37:33 PM Central Standard Time,
                            LiudmilaV@... writes:

                            > "fata" -- veil, in late period

                            <fata> does not seem to be a period word. Or did you actually find it in a
                            primary source? A lot of scholars use modern words, when Old Russian words
                            are lacking or unclear, to describe an object, and they don't qualify the use
                            of the modern word.

                            The two words I have encountered in period texts are <ubrus> and <povoi>
                            ([poh-VOI] -- [voi] as in "void" without the d). What the exact distinction
                            is remains unclear to me. However, the translucency or transparency that the
                            modern word "fata" brings to mind is quite possible -- married women hid
                            their hair, while maidens might emulate married women, but with a twist --
                            letting their hair show through the veil.

                            Forms of <povoi> have survived, if not till today, at least into my mother's
                            childhood, and refer to parts or the whole of a woman's headdress (in my
                            mother's village, it referred to a soft, kerchiefy, ribbonny thing -- haven't
                            quite figured out how it looks).

                            Predslava,
                            adding to the mist of confusion
                          • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                            In a message dated 11/9/1999 11:41:12 PM Central Standard Time, ...
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 10, 1999
                            • 0 Attachment
                              In a message dated 11/9/1999 11:41:12 PM Central Standard Time,
                              LiudmilaV@... writes:

                              > Woops, sorry for my previous repetitious post.

                              <povtorenie mat' uchenia>
                              [poh-vtoh-REH-nee-yeh mat' oo-CHEH-nyah]

                              "Repetition is the mother of learning".

                              Predslava,
                              under the influence of Mother
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.