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  • Tracy Kremer
    On another thread I wrote, a whole history that I didn t know of; what I should have said was something like, a lot of history and mythology , since the
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 9, 2004
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      On another thread I wrote, "a whole history" that I
      didn't know of; what I should have said was something
      like, "a lot of history and mythology", since the
      topic being discussed was questionable as history.
      Sorry; hope I didn't annoy anyone!

      Tracy

      =====

      IN 2004 - JUNE 4-6th - COMING TO CHARLOTTE - (drum roll, please,)http://www.secfi.org/concarolinas

      for good webcomics, use these links!
      http://sluggy.com http://www.schlockmercenary.com http://www.kevinandkell.com




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    • Linda
      You know, Tracy, I feel the same way about this history. Don t tell anyone but the only D I every got in High School was in History, when it was the
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 9, 2004
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        You know, Tracy, I feel the same way about this history. Don't tell
        anyone but the only "D" I every got in High School was in History, when
        it was the dullest, driest, memorize-the-date class I ever hated.
        Now I can actually remember that the English "hundred years war" was
        sometime in the 1400s because that was when the Poulane (reputed to be
        Polish fashion) pointed toe shoe was in fashion and the French knights
        in armor couldn't walk in them when they were dismounted on the muddy
        battlefield.
        Who'd ever have known how interesting and relevant history really is?!

        Welcome to the most interesting and informative list in or out of the
        "known world"!
        Maria P

        .......................
        On another thread I wrote, "a whole history" that I
        didn't know of; what I should have said was something
        like, "a lot of history and mythology", since the
        topic being discussed was questionable as history.
        Sorry; hope I didn't annoy anyone!

        Tracy

        =====
      • Butler309@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/10/2004 09:39:40 Central Standard Time, P&MSulisz ... Wroclawia. Okay, so what s the rule on z/ze? Leszek ze Szczecina would be correct
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 10, 2004
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          In a message dated 3/10/2004 09:39:40 Central Standard Time, "P&MSulisz"
          pmsulisz@... writes:

          >Of szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= >z
          Wroclawia.


          Okay, so what's the rule on z/ze? Leszek ze Szczecina would be correct for
          Leszek of (from) Szczecin?



          >>I was a little concerned about the forbidden name thing, but thought
          >>Leszek might be from minor Piast Kin who moved into Pomerania after >>conquest and
          intermarried with the locals.
          >You have to take into consideration two things:
          >Poland was a tribal society. The main unit of its organization was a family
          >(rod) in rather wide sense. The family was everything - its members only
          >serves the glory of the family. (In some way it is similiar to the present
          >situation :( only the definition of the family has >changed).

          A lot of family pressure in Modern Poland?
          >If he is of Piast family Leszek seems to be a kind of a >fugitive. One >of
          the most severe punishment in old P. was to be >take out of the >Law - Leszek
          seems to be such a person.
          Seems like there would have to be some dynastic marriages in the
          establishment of Polish authority in Pomerania. For instance, Swietopelk, (ruler part of
          Pomerania in the early 12th C) is referenced as a 'distant cousin of the
          Piasts,' and Mieszko Stary (the Old) had 3 daughters and one son married to
          Pomeranians.

          But your points, particularly the Merchant thing are very good. I always
          thought of Leszek as a sort of 'Black Sheep,' but don't want him to be a total
          outlaw, hmm . . . do you suppose raiding enemy shipping and coastal towns would
          be a more appropriate ocupation? Poland was always at war with someone, so
          the work would be steady :) I may have to revise Pan Leszek before I get
          active in the Society again . . . on the other hand, real Pomeranian names are
          even stranger (for Americans) than Polish names :)


          >But in those times he had the power to protect his wealth. There was a lot
          >of rich people (esspecially Jews, and other merchands) who hadn.t enough
          >wide backs. They were killed very quick - ussual explanation was: they were
          >spies...

          One of the advantages of being a transporter, as opposed to mere dealer, is
          that the continuous connection is often worth more to one's clients than any
          one cargo. Harbors that loot shippers soon become ghost towns. My
          understanding was that Polish trade was quite extensive, and they had a merchant law
          called the 'Mir Targowy.' Connection to the local nobility never hurts either.
          While many traders were robbed, many also prospered. No risk, no reward.
          Likewise, it is my understanding that one of the reasons Poland has had such a
          large Jewish population was that the Poles were much less fond of robbing and
          murdering them, and were even scolded by the Pope for giving Jews too much
          freedom.


          >> Love to do both, but haven't the re$ources.
          >Maybe you could use the USarmy as a travel office. I heard That >Nato had
          >chosen Szczecin to be one of its minor centers of >commandment... ;)

          I'm not in the Military. My translator was, but our association was
          civillian.

          As always, thank you for you comments and corrections.
          - Steve Butler


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • P&MSulisz
          ... Leszek of ... Szczecin is Szczecin and Szczytno is something completely different. Of szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= z
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 10, 2004
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            > A military-trained translator helped me with the name, and told me that
            > Szczytna would be the form of the city name Szczecin appropriate to
            'Leszek of
            > Szczecin.'
            Szczecin is Szczecin and Szczytno is something completely different. Of
            szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= z Wroclawia.
            Leszek is a deminutive form of Lech- probably the most Polish of all the
            Polish names. Even now the some eastern people name Poland: Lechistan. In
            other historic sources Lachowie=Polish men (Laszki=Polish women). Lech was
            the legendary founder of Poland (One of the 3 brothers: Lech, Czech & Rus)

            > I was a little concerned about the forbidden name thing, but thought
            Leszek
            > might be from minor Piast Kin who moved into Pomerania after conquest and
            > intermarried with the locals.
            You have to take into consideration two things:
            Poland was a tribal society. The main unit of its organization was a family
            (rod) in rather wide sense. The family was everything - its members only
            serves the glory of the family. (In some way it is similiar to the present
            situation :( only the definition of the family has changed). If he is of
            Piast family Leszek seems to be a kind of a fugitive. One of the most
            severe punishment in old P. was to be take out of the Law - Leszek seems to
            be such a person. In the other case he has to belong to some place. Is he a
            citizen of Szczecin (pays taxes there etc.)? I don't know much about the
            law of Szczecin (my territory is Silesia) and about their attitude to
            merchants. In general they were despised until the modern era. There are
            examples of old law (XVI) which cansels the nobility of a noble who tends to
            be a merchand. This is why this profession was dominated by Jews.
            On the other hand you have to remember that the Piast family rose to its
            power on selling slaves (the main centre of slave trade was in early period
            Prague) ...


            Leszek is angry at the Holy Roman Empire's abuse of
            > its religious authority, and proud of his history and culture, but
            believes
            > that a united Poland/Pomerania is the only hope for the future against the
            > Saxons and others (As we say in America, "If we don't hang together, we
            will surely hang separately).

            Watching our TV news I wish we (here in Poland) had similiar proverb. :(


            As the Monarchists are identified with Christianity, and
            > the anti-monarchists are generally identified with paganism, Leszek is
            viewed
            > with some suspicion by both sides. Therefore he tries to steer clear of
            > politics and stick to his trade business, as money is generally acceptable
            to all
            > creeds and factions!
            But in those times he had the power to protect his wealth. There was a lot
            of rich people (esspecially Jews, and other merchands) who hadn.t enough
            wide backs. They were killed very quick - ussual explanation was: they were
            spies...


            (this is a parallel to my personal politics which don't
            > align well with either of our two main parties) This is another example
            that
            > conflicts that superficially seem to be religious, usually have deeper
            cultural
            > and political histories. The 'Christianization' of Poland was primarily a
            > polical decision, but it still didn't stop the Empire from trying to
            conquer it.
            Agree. The history of the christianity in Poland is a different story. Some
            of our historians say it is only the shallow film on the pagan nature of
            Polish people. Pagan doesn't mean not religious. Pagans can be very
            religious but in a little different way...

            > Love to do both, but haven't the re$ources.
            Maybe you could use the USarmy as a travel office. I heard That Nato had
            chosen Szczecin to be one of its minor centers of commandment... ;)
          • Tracy Kremer
            ... If I may ask, what was their misunderstanding? I know that the few Polish women, living in Poland, that I have met with and talked to are working women,
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 10, 2004
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              --- P&MSulisz <pmsulisz@...> wrote:
              > Recently I read the article in the western/German
              > newspaper (Neue Zurcher
              > Zeitung) about the position of the woman in modern
              > Poland. It caused my eyes
              > to be verrrrry big and round: misunderstanding of
              > the social condition in Poland was so enourmous...

              If I may ask, what was their misunderstanding? I know
              that the few Polish women, living in Poland, that I
              have met with and talked to are working women, even
              when married and with a child, and seemed quite
              comfortable with that. It seems to me that in a land
              that (correct me if I'm wrong in any respect) has
              never been very rich, this must have been true even in
              historic times...

              Eluned/Tracy


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            • P&MSulisz
              ... In few words: It depends on the last vovel of the main word. If it needs (for comfortable prounce) -ia ending one uses only z like z Wroclaw-ia . If
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 11, 2004
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                > >Of szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= >z
                > Wroclawia.
                >
                >
                > Okay, so what's the rule on z/ze?

                In few words: It depends on the last vovel of the main word. If it needs
                (for comfortable prounce) '-ia' ending one uses only 'z' like 'z
                Wroclaw-ia'. If one adds only '-a' you will use 'ze' like 'ze Szczecina'.

                > Leszek ze Szczecina would be correct for
                > Leszek of (from) Szczecin?

                Leszek of (from) Szczecin is correct in English. In Polish the proper form
                is: Leszek ze Szczecina.

                > A lot of family pressure in Modern Poland?
                I use here the word 'family' in the term of 'the group of the influence' (or
                authority or power).
                Recently I read the article in the western/German newspaper (Neue Zurcher
                Zeitung) about the position of the woman in modern Poland. It caused my eyes
                to be verrrrry big and round: misunderstanding of the social condition in
                Poland was so enourmous...



                > Seems like there would have to be some dynastic marriages in the
                > establishment of Polish authority in Pomerania.
                Of course. There was always a number of princesses to be given to neighbour
                rulers. Check the genealogy tables.



                > But your points, particularly the Merchant thing are very good. I always
                > thought of Leszek as a sort of 'Black Sheep,' but don't want him to be a
                total
                > outlaw, hmm . . . do you suppose raiding enemy shipping and coastal towns
                would
                > be a more appropriate ocupation?
                In the light of medieval Polish chronicles (in XII/XIII centuries) it would
                be even honourable occupation... It seems to be a constant way of filling
                the always empty duke's cases. I this way Leszek could earn the real (?)
                friendship and favour of a local duke (maybe a good wife - heiress)?

                real Pomeranian names are
                > even stranger (for Americans) than Polish names :)
                We use here general term 'Pomeranians' but what do you mean by it?
                There were at least few tribes...

                My
                > understanding was that Polish trade was quite extensive, and they had a
                merchant law
                > called the 'Mir Targowy.'
                Yes, it was in the theory (especially in XIII c.). Mir targowy (peace of the
                trade) & mir drogowy (peace of the road). It is true that the violation of
                them was punished 'by throat' (id est: by killing the violator). We have a
                long traditions of the robber-knights (so called by German name
                raubritters), domestical wars, noble robbers etc. In the times of the weak
                central authority the roads weren't safe places.


                > Likewise, it is my understanding that one of the reasons Poland has had
                such a
                > large Jewish population was that the Poles were much less fond of robbing
                and
                > murdering them, and were even scolded by the Pope for giving Jews too much
                > freedom.
                Good point!
                This is because of the 'special' kind of the polish christianity. If ones
                beliefs are rather superficial one is much less fond of burning stakes for
                the heretics. Polish people were very pragmatic (for the most of their
                history). I personally think we lost this commonn sense after strong
                catholic indoctorination in the contr-reformation era (XVII-XVIII). And the
                tragedy was an emerging - in XIXc. - of this false formula: "the only true
                Pole is Catholic".
                Greetings,

                Magdalena z Wroclawia
                (Magdalena Gruna-Sulisz)
              • dobrowol@if.uj.edu.pl
                In the tourist brochures published in English in Poland there is a distinc= tion made between family and noble family . The 1st refers to casual relatives
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 15, 2004
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                  In the tourist brochures published in English in Poland there is a distinc=
                  tion made
                  between 'family' and 'noble family'. The 1st refers to casual relatives be=
                  aring some
                  common surename like Kowal, Jankowski, whereas the 2nd signifies social c=
                  lass -
                  such a family mentioned in a text describing history of a region had the r=
                  ight to bear a
                  certain herald and some legal privileges along with land, households, str=
                  ongholds and
                  property of other sort used to apply.e.g Odrowaz, Koniecpolski, have'Odro=
                  wa=BF' herald
                  on their standard and numbers of other noble families also have the right =
                  to use
                  Odrawa=BF. Of course, not all persons bearing certain surename can testify=
                  that a herald
                  or precious family goods like piece of jewelery signed with certain herald=
                  motif used to
                  or are the property of this family branch. To prove his or her nobility a =
                  person should
                  search through testimonies of birth of his probable grand-ancestors who us=
                  ed to live in
                  some area for centuries and if this genealogical research proves to be
                  successful(matches with some of his or her parents) and the searcher manag=
                  es to
                  complete these documents, then he or she is free to contact a herald organ=
                  ization to
                  apply for a proper certicate of authenticity. Otherwise, bearing an existi=
                  ng herald with no
                  proof of ownership is illegal and a legal owner of this herald can accuse =
                  he other person
                  of theft at the Polish court. Anyway, being born in a noble family contemp=
                  orarily is just a
                  fact and Polish democracy does not privilege individuals with any convenie=
                  nce neither
                  economical, social nor political as it used to be centuries ago. Owning a =
                  noble family
                  seal is rather an interesting fact than a helpful argument in modern socia=
                  l life, business
                  and politics.


                  Wojciech from Cracovia
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