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  • Butler309@aol.com
    In a message dated 3/8/2004 7:30:54 AM Central Standard Time, sig@yahoogroups.com writes: Szczecin or Szczytno? They are two different places in two different
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 8, 2004
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      In a message dated 3/8/2004 7:30:54 AM Central Standard Time,
      sig@yahoogroups.com writes:
      Szczecin or Szczytno?
      They are two different places in two different 'corners' of the present
      Poland: west and east. Szczytno wasn't a coastal city. The most famous port
      in the nearest area was almost fabulous city Truso (Balts, Vikings, etc.)
      located presently near modern Elblag.
      A military-trained translator helped me with the name, and told me that
      Szczytna would be the form of the city name Szczecin appropriate to 'Leszek of
      Szczecin.' I hope this isn't wrong, as the name has already passed, but would
      like to be corrected if it is. Maybe she got the cities confused? Polish is so
      highly inflected that it seemed reasonable to me, and I (foolishly, perhaps)
      did not seek a verification. Native Polish speakers are rare in my part of the
      country.

      >Why Leszek supports Piasts being non-christian? It would be rather suspect
      >for them. They had big problems with pagans rebels. His name suggest also he
      >is related to Piast's family. (Maybe he is a son of the one of their pagan
      >wives? It was a custom for young princes to have some of them before legal
      >(christian) wife.)
      >Note that the custom of 'forbidden' names (like it is in the present time
      >with name 'Jesus', and till XVII c. was with name 'Mary' Maria, Maryja) of
      >ruling dynasty was especially strong in those times. Piasts family names
      >were available to 'normal' people after the collapse of the dynasty.

      I was a little concerned about the forbidden name thing, but thought Leszek
      might be from minor Piast Kin who moved into Pomerania after conquest and
      intermarried with the locals. Leszek is angry at the Holy Roman Empire's abuse of
      its religious authority, and proud of his history and culture, but believes
      that a united Poland/Pomerania is the only hope for the future against the
      Saxons and others (As we say in America, "If we don't hang together, we will surely
      hang separately). As the Monarchists are identified with Christianity, and
      the anti-monarchists are generally identified with paganism, Leszek is viewed
      with some suspicion by both sides. Therefore he tries to steer clear of
      politics and stick to his trade business, as money is generally acceptable to all
      creeds and factions! (this is a parallel to my personal politics which don't
      align well with either of our two main parties) This is another example that
      conflicts that superficially seem to be religious, usually have deeper cultural
      and political histories. The 'Christianization' of Poland was primarily a
      polical decision, but it still didn't stop the Empire from trying to conquer it.

      The only thing you should do is to come to Szczecin and learn Polish (maybe
      in different order ;). Polish is not so difficult as Hungarian, or
      Chinees...
      Love to do both, but haven't the re$ources.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tracy Kremer
      On another thread I wrote, a whole history that I didn t know of; what I should have said was something like, a lot of history and mythology , since the
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 9, 2004
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        On another thread I wrote, "a whole history" that I
        didn't know of; what I should have said was something
        like, "a lot of history and mythology", since the
        topic being discussed was questionable as history.
        Sorry; hope I didn't annoy anyone!

        Tracy

        =====

        IN 2004 - JUNE 4-6th - COMING TO CHARLOTTE - (drum roll, please,)http://www.secfi.org/concarolinas

        for good webcomics, use these links!
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      • Linda
        You know, Tracy, I feel the same way about this history. Don t tell anyone but the only D I every got in High School was in History, when it was the
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 9, 2004
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          You know, Tracy, I feel the same way about this history. Don't tell
          anyone but the only "D" I every got in High School was in History, when
          it was the dullest, driest, memorize-the-date class I ever hated.
          Now I can actually remember that the English "hundred years war" was
          sometime in the 1400s because that was when the Poulane (reputed to be
          Polish fashion) pointed toe shoe was in fashion and the French knights
          in armor couldn't walk in them when they were dismounted on the muddy
          battlefield.
          Who'd ever have known how interesting and relevant history really is?!

          Welcome to the most interesting and informative list in or out of the
          "known world"!
          Maria P

          .......................
          On another thread I wrote, "a whole history" that I
          didn't know of; what I should have said was something
          like, "a lot of history and mythology", since the
          topic being discussed was questionable as history.
          Sorry; hope I didn't annoy anyone!

          Tracy

          =====
        • Butler309@aol.com
          In a message dated 3/10/2004 09:39:40 Central Standard Time, P&MSulisz ... Wroclawia. Okay, so what s the rule on z/ze? Leszek ze Szczecina would be correct
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 10, 2004
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            In a message dated 3/10/2004 09:39:40 Central Standard Time, "P&MSulisz"
            pmsulisz@... writes:

            >Of szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= >z
            Wroclawia.


            Okay, so what's the rule on z/ze? Leszek ze Szczecina would be correct for
            Leszek of (from) Szczecin?



            >>I was a little concerned about the forbidden name thing, but thought
            >>Leszek might be from minor Piast Kin who moved into Pomerania after >>conquest and
            intermarried with the locals.
            >You have to take into consideration two things:
            >Poland was a tribal society. The main unit of its organization was a family
            >(rod) in rather wide sense. The family was everything - its members only
            >serves the glory of the family. (In some way it is similiar to the present
            >situation :( only the definition of the family has >changed).

            A lot of family pressure in Modern Poland?
            >If he is of Piast family Leszek seems to be a kind of a >fugitive. One >of
            the most severe punishment in old P. was to be >take out of the >Law - Leszek
            seems to be such a person.
            Seems like there would have to be some dynastic marriages in the
            establishment of Polish authority in Pomerania. For instance, Swietopelk, (ruler part of
            Pomerania in the early 12th C) is referenced as a 'distant cousin of the
            Piasts,' and Mieszko Stary (the Old) had 3 daughters and one son married to
            Pomeranians.

            But your points, particularly the Merchant thing are very good. I always
            thought of Leszek as a sort of 'Black Sheep,' but don't want him to be a total
            outlaw, hmm . . . do you suppose raiding enemy shipping and coastal towns would
            be a more appropriate ocupation? Poland was always at war with someone, so
            the work would be steady :) I may have to revise Pan Leszek before I get
            active in the Society again . . . on the other hand, real Pomeranian names are
            even stranger (for Americans) than Polish names :)


            >But in those times he had the power to protect his wealth. There was a lot
            >of rich people (esspecially Jews, and other merchands) who hadn.t enough
            >wide backs. They were killed very quick - ussual explanation was: they were
            >spies...

            One of the advantages of being a transporter, as opposed to mere dealer, is
            that the continuous connection is often worth more to one's clients than any
            one cargo. Harbors that loot shippers soon become ghost towns. My
            understanding was that Polish trade was quite extensive, and they had a merchant law
            called the 'Mir Targowy.' Connection to the local nobility never hurts either.
            While many traders were robbed, many also prospered. No risk, no reward.
            Likewise, it is my understanding that one of the reasons Poland has had such a
            large Jewish population was that the Poles were much less fond of robbing and
            murdering them, and were even scolded by the Pope for giving Jews too much
            freedom.


            >> Love to do both, but haven't the re$ources.
            >Maybe you could use the USarmy as a travel office. I heard That >Nato had
            >chosen Szczecin to be one of its minor centers of >commandment... ;)

            I'm not in the Military. My translator was, but our association was
            civillian.

            As always, thank you for you comments and corrections.
            - Steve Butler


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • P&MSulisz
            ... Leszek of ... Szczecin is Szczecin and Szczytno is something completely different. Of szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= z
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 10, 2004
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              > A military-trained translator helped me with the name, and told me that
              > Szczytna would be the form of the city name Szczecin appropriate to
              'Leszek of
              > Szczecin.'
              Szczecin is Szczecin and Szczytno is something completely different. Of
              szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= z Wroclawia.
              Leszek is a deminutive form of Lech- probably the most Polish of all the
              Polish names. Even now the some eastern people name Poland: Lechistan. In
              other historic sources Lachowie=Polish men (Laszki=Polish women). Lech was
              the legendary founder of Poland (One of the 3 brothers: Lech, Czech & Rus)

              > I was a little concerned about the forbidden name thing, but thought
              Leszek
              > might be from minor Piast Kin who moved into Pomerania after conquest and
              > intermarried with the locals.
              You have to take into consideration two things:
              Poland was a tribal society. The main unit of its organization was a family
              (rod) in rather wide sense. The family was everything - its members only
              serves the glory of the family. (In some way it is similiar to the present
              situation :( only the definition of the family has changed). If he is of
              Piast family Leszek seems to be a kind of a fugitive. One of the most
              severe punishment in old P. was to be take out of the Law - Leszek seems to
              be such a person. In the other case he has to belong to some place. Is he a
              citizen of Szczecin (pays taxes there etc.)? I don't know much about the
              law of Szczecin (my territory is Silesia) and about their attitude to
              merchants. In general they were despised until the modern era. There are
              examples of old law (XVI) which cansels the nobility of a noble who tends to
              be a merchand. This is why this profession was dominated by Jews.
              On the other hand you have to remember that the Piast family rose to its
              power on selling slaves (the main centre of slave trade was in early period
              Prague) ...


              Leszek is angry at the Holy Roman Empire's abuse of
              > its religious authority, and proud of his history and culture, but
              believes
              > that a united Poland/Pomerania is the only hope for the future against the
              > Saxons and others (As we say in America, "If we don't hang together, we
              will surely hang separately).

              Watching our TV news I wish we (here in Poland) had similiar proverb. :(


              As the Monarchists are identified with Christianity, and
              > the anti-monarchists are generally identified with paganism, Leszek is
              viewed
              > with some suspicion by both sides. Therefore he tries to steer clear of
              > politics and stick to his trade business, as money is generally acceptable
              to all
              > creeds and factions!
              But in those times he had the power to protect his wealth. There was a lot
              of rich people (esspecially Jews, and other merchands) who hadn.t enough
              wide backs. They were killed very quick - ussual explanation was: they were
              spies...


              (this is a parallel to my personal politics which don't
              > align well with either of our two main parties) This is another example
              that
              > conflicts that superficially seem to be religious, usually have deeper
              cultural
              > and political histories. The 'Christianization' of Poland was primarily a
              > polical decision, but it still didn't stop the Empire from trying to
              conquer it.
              Agree. The history of the christianity in Poland is a different story. Some
              of our historians say it is only the shallow film on the pagan nature of
              Polish people. Pagan doesn't mean not religious. Pagans can be very
              religious but in a little different way...

              > Love to do both, but haven't the re$ources.
              Maybe you could use the USarmy as a travel office. I heard That Nato had
              chosen Szczecin to be one of its minor centers of commandment... ;)
            • Tracy Kremer
              ... If I may ask, what was their misunderstanding? I know that the few Polish women, living in Poland, that I have met with and talked to are working women,
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 10, 2004
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                --- P&MSulisz <pmsulisz@...> wrote:
                > Recently I read the article in the western/German
                > newspaper (Neue Zurcher
                > Zeitung) about the position of the woman in modern
                > Poland. It caused my eyes
                > to be verrrrry big and round: misunderstanding of
                > the social condition in Poland was so enourmous...

                If I may ask, what was their misunderstanding? I know
                that the few Polish women, living in Poland, that I
                have met with and talked to are working women, even
                when married and with a child, and seemed quite
                comfortable with that. It seems to me that in a land
                that (correct me if I'm wrong in any respect) has
                never been very rich, this must have been true even in
                historic times...

                Eluned/Tracy


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              • P&MSulisz
                ... In few words: It depends on the last vovel of the main word. If it needs (for comfortable prounce) -ia ending one uses only z like z Wroclaw-ia . If
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 11, 2004
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                  > >Of szczecin = ze Szczecina, of Szczytno= ze Szczytna, of Wroclaw= >z
                  > Wroclawia.
                  >
                  >
                  > Okay, so what's the rule on z/ze?

                  In few words: It depends on the last vovel of the main word. If it needs
                  (for comfortable prounce) '-ia' ending one uses only 'z' like 'z
                  Wroclaw-ia'. If one adds only '-a' you will use 'ze' like 'ze Szczecina'.

                  > Leszek ze Szczecina would be correct for
                  > Leszek of (from) Szczecin?

                  Leszek of (from) Szczecin is correct in English. In Polish the proper form
                  is: Leszek ze Szczecina.

                  > A lot of family pressure in Modern Poland?
                  I use here the word 'family' in the term of 'the group of the influence' (or
                  authority or power).
                  Recently I read the article in the western/German newspaper (Neue Zurcher
                  Zeitung) about the position of the woman in modern Poland. It caused my eyes
                  to be verrrrry big and round: misunderstanding of the social condition in
                  Poland was so enourmous...



                  > Seems like there would have to be some dynastic marriages in the
                  > establishment of Polish authority in Pomerania.
                  Of course. There was always a number of princesses to be given to neighbour
                  rulers. Check the genealogy tables.



                  > But your points, particularly the Merchant thing are very good. I always
                  > thought of Leszek as a sort of 'Black Sheep,' but don't want him to be a
                  total
                  > outlaw, hmm . . . do you suppose raiding enemy shipping and coastal towns
                  would
                  > be a more appropriate ocupation?
                  In the light of medieval Polish chronicles (in XII/XIII centuries) it would
                  be even honourable occupation... It seems to be a constant way of filling
                  the always empty duke's cases. I this way Leszek could earn the real (?)
                  friendship and favour of a local duke (maybe a good wife - heiress)?

                  real Pomeranian names are
                  > even stranger (for Americans) than Polish names :)
                  We use here general term 'Pomeranians' but what do you mean by it?
                  There were at least few tribes...

                  My
                  > understanding was that Polish trade was quite extensive, and they had a
                  merchant law
                  > called the 'Mir Targowy.'
                  Yes, it was in the theory (especially in XIII c.). Mir targowy (peace of the
                  trade) & mir drogowy (peace of the road). It is true that the violation of
                  them was punished 'by throat' (id est: by killing the violator). We have a
                  long traditions of the robber-knights (so called by German name
                  raubritters), domestical wars, noble robbers etc. In the times of the weak
                  central authority the roads weren't safe places.


                  > Likewise, it is my understanding that one of the reasons Poland has had
                  such a
                  > large Jewish population was that the Poles were much less fond of robbing
                  and
                  > murdering them, and were even scolded by the Pope for giving Jews too much
                  > freedom.
                  Good point!
                  This is because of the 'special' kind of the polish christianity. If ones
                  beliefs are rather superficial one is much less fond of burning stakes for
                  the heretics. Polish people were very pragmatic (for the most of their
                  history). I personally think we lost this commonn sense after strong
                  catholic indoctorination in the contr-reformation era (XVII-XVIII). And the
                  tragedy was an emerging - in XIXc. - of this false formula: "the only true
                  Pole is Catholic".
                  Greetings,

                  Magdalena z Wroclawia
                  (Magdalena Gruna-Sulisz)
                • dobrowol@if.uj.edu.pl
                  In the tourist brochures published in English in Poland there is a distinc= tion made between family and noble family . The 1st refers to casual relatives
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 15, 2004
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                    In the tourist brochures published in English in Poland there is a distinc=
                    tion made
                    between 'family' and 'noble family'. The 1st refers to casual relatives be=
                    aring some
                    common surename like Kowal, Jankowski, whereas the 2nd signifies social c=
                    lass -
                    such a family mentioned in a text describing history of a region had the r=
                    ight to bear a
                    certain herald and some legal privileges along with land, households, str=
                    ongholds and
                    property of other sort used to apply.e.g Odrowaz, Koniecpolski, have'Odro=
                    wa=BF' herald
                    on their standard and numbers of other noble families also have the right =
                    to use
                    Odrawa=BF. Of course, not all persons bearing certain surename can testify=
                    that a herald
                    or precious family goods like piece of jewelery signed with certain herald=
                    motif used to
                    or are the property of this family branch. To prove his or her nobility a =
                    person should
                    search through testimonies of birth of his probable grand-ancestors who us=
                    ed to live in
                    some area for centuries and if this genealogical research proves to be
                    successful(matches with some of his or her parents) and the searcher manag=
                    es to
                    complete these documents, then he or she is free to contact a herald organ=
                    ization to
                    apply for a proper certicate of authenticity. Otherwise, bearing an existi=
                    ng herald with no
                    proof of ownership is illegal and a legal owner of this herald can accuse =
                    he other person
                    of theft at the Polish court. Anyway, being born in a noble family contemp=
                    orarily is just a
                    fact and Polish democracy does not privilege individuals with any convenie=
                    nce neither
                    economical, social nor political as it used to be centuries ago. Owning a =
                    noble family
                    seal is rather an interesting fact than a helpful argument in modern socia=
                    l life, business
                    and politics.


                    Wojciech from Cracovia
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