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Re: [sig] Russian question

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  • Tim Nalley
    Greetings Petranella from dak, That is a very good question regarding the hose, a quaestion I can t answer and one which is actually being actively debated.
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 2, 2004
      Greetings Petranella from 'dak,
      That is a very good question regarding the hose, a
      quaestion I can't answer and one which is actually
      being actively debated. However, the shoes are another
      story. The common colors mentioned by western ad
      eastern travellers in Moscovy are read, green, blue,
      brown and black. Some mention cloth slippers, though
      in the context of indoors wear. Heels are mentioned in
      the 17th century with toes "like unto those worn by
      the Medians" ie. the Persians. Wmens boots mentioned
      in the Hermitage are lether embroidered with pearls. I
      always thought that red velvet with freshwater pearls
      (from Fire Mountain, Online, bought in bulk) would be
      beautiful.
      Low heels, ankle length, midcalf and upper calf
      depending on wealth, conditions and social class. Keep
      in mind that Moscovite russians had a very, very
      active secondary market for used clothes, even
      utilizing heavily worn clothes as trim, edgings and
      stuffing. Indoor shoes would be a naturals, as would
      pillows, cushions and woven rugs.
      Sadly, I'm a fanatical Russian persona and
      costumer and so I am shackled with an extensive
      Russian waredrobe and a developing Persian -Turkish
      selection of hot weather gear. My hose are linen lapti
      pants and I generally wear persian knee length hose
      that tie with a draw string above the alf and
      described by Giles Fletcher in Rude and Barbarous
      Kingdom, the primer for our period.
      So, tell me about your clothing ideas??


      --- "Salli J. Weston" <westo006@...> wrote:
      > Greetings,
      >
      > I am new to the list and making my first Russian
      > garb. I'm confident on
      > the clothing. My question is: What would a late
      > 16th century upper class
      > Russian female wear on her feet for indoor/court
      > wear? I assume bias cut
      > cloth hose, But realize I have no basis for that.
      > Would it be boots or
      > shoes, what shape would the toe be, and would they
      > be cloth or leather?
      > Any particular color/decoration? Anything I'm
      > forgetting?
      >
      > Thank you,
      > Petranella
      >
      >


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    • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
      Greetings! ... Just consider a typical Russian (West European, Baltic, etc - no difference) street. NO pavement for pedestrians, and it s just a rich trade
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 4, 2004
        Greetings!

        > I am new to the list and making my first Russian garb. I'm confident on
        > the clothing. My question is: What would a late 16th century upper class
        > Russian female wear on her feet for indoor/court wear? I assume bias cut
        > cloth hose, But realize I have no basis for that. Would it be boots or
        > shoes, what shape would the toe be, and would they be cloth or leather?
        > Any particular color/decoration? Anything I'm forgetting?

        Just consider a typical Russian (West European, Baltic, etc - no difference) street.

        NO pavement for pedestrians, and it's just a rich trade centre if the street is paved at least with logs. Usually that means liquid dirt for three-four months a year, dirt up to the knees. March, April and October are months for anything but cloth footwear. Boots, that's what they wore outdoors if they were wealthy enough.

        BTW, footcloth (onuchi) was worn even by princesses, along with socks. Tsarevniny onuchki is mentioned in the list of garb compiled by the Kremlin castellans in 15-16 century. The exact citation is to be found in my 1,5 cubic metres of books piled without any shelves on my wardrobe.

        bye,
        Alex
      • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
        Greetings! ... Mostly, it was not the market sector but a household activity, though not for 100 %. Just remember the Domostroy. ... AFAIR, a cushion is a
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 4, 2004
          Greetings!

          > Low heels, ankle length, midcalf and upper calf
          > depending on wealth, conditions and social class. Keep
          > in mind that Moscovite russians had a very, very
          > active secondary market for used clothes, even
          > utilizing heavily worn clothes as trim, edgings and
          Mostly, it was not the market sector but a household activity, though not for 100 %. Just remember the Domostroy.
          > stuffing. Indoor shoes would be a naturals, as would
          > pillows, cushions and woven rugs.
          AFAIR, a cushion is a rather late device. Though, some imported goods like cushions really could exist.
          > Sadly, I'm a fanatical Russian persona and
          > costumer and so I am shackled with an extensive
          > Russian waredrobe and a developing Persian -Turkish
          > selection of hot weather gear. My hose are linen lapti
          ?????????????????? Shoe pants??? 8-[ ] Afraid I can't get your idea.

          > pants and I generally wear persian knee length hose
          > that tie with a draw string above the alf and
          > described by Giles Fletcher in Rude and Barbarous
          > Kingdom, the primer for our period.
          BTW, what does he say about wearing hose with shoes? I got only some quotes.

          Bye,
          Alex
        • Tim Nalley
          Acyually he says that their upper socks were cloth of gold, though he says nothing about the rest of the sock in the boot. From the iconograpghy of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 4, 2004
            Acyually he says that their "upper socks" were cloth
            of gold, though he says nothing about the rest of the
            sock in the boot. From the iconograpghy of the period
            and some post period sources like Olearius, linen and
            wool are much more common. What's your take, Alexi?





            --- "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
            wrote:
            > Greetings!
            >
            > > Low heels, ankle length, midcalf and upper
            > calf
            > > depending on wealth, conditions and social class.
            > Keep
            > > in mind that Moscovite russians had a very, very
            > > active secondary market for used clothes, even
            > > utilizing heavily worn clothes as trim, edgings
            > and
            > Mostly, it was not the market sector but a household
            > activity, though not for 100 %. Just remember the
            > Domostroy.
            > > stuffing. Indoor shoes would be a naturals, as
            > would
            > > pillows, cushions and woven rugs.
            > AFAIR, a cushion is a rather late device. Though,
            > some imported goods like cushions really could
            > exist.
            > > Sadly, I'm a fanatical Russian persona and
            > > costumer and so I am shackled with an extensive
            > > Russian waredrobe and a developing Persian
            > -Turkish
            > > selection of hot weather gear. My hose are linen
            > lapti
            > ?????????????????? Shoe pants??? 8-[ ] Afraid I
            > can't get your idea.
            >
            > > pants and I generally wear persian knee length
            > hose
            > > that tie with a draw string above the alf and
            > > described by Giles Fletcher in Rude and Barbarous
            > > Kingdom, the primer for our period.
            > BTW, what does he say about wearing hose with shoes?
            > I got only some quotes.
            >
            > Bye,
            > Alex
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            > sig-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >


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          • Tim Nalley
            A good analogy of period Russian streets might be Pennsic last year during the rains. That s period Russia, the muck and the majesty. There s a lot of info out
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 4, 2004
              A good analogy of period Russian streets might be
              Pennsic last year during the rains. That's period
              Russia, the muck and the majesty. There's a lot of
              info out there, if you read Russian. I'm personally
              thankful we have members like Alexi.
              'dak
              --- "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Greetings!
              >
              > > I am new to the list and making my first Russian
              > garb. I'm confident on
              > > the clothing. My question is: What would a late
              > 16th century upper class
              > > Russian female wear on her feet for indoor/court
              > wear? I assume bias cut
              > > cloth hose, But realize I have no basis for that.
              > Would it be boots or
              > > shoes, what shape would the toe be, and would they
              > be cloth or leather?
              > > Any particular color/decoration? Anything I'm
              > forgetting?
              >
              > Just consider a typical Russian (West European,
              > Baltic, etc - no difference) street.
              >
              > NO pavement for pedestrians, and it's just a rich
              > trade centre if the street is paved at least with
              > logs. Usually that means liquid dirt for three-four
              > months a year, dirt up to the knees. March, April
              > and October are months for anything but cloth
              > footwear. Boots, that's what they wore outdoors if
              > they were wealthy enough.
              >
              > BTW, footcloth (onuchi) was worn even by princesses,
              > along with socks. Tsarevniny onuchki is mentioned in
              > the list of garb compiled by the Kremlin castellans
              > in 15-16 century. The exact citation is to be found
              > in my 1,5 cubic metres of books piled without any
              > shelves on my wardrobe.
              >
              > bye,
              > Alex
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              > sig-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >


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            • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
              Greetings! ... My take is like linen cloth (onuchi), in the way shown in one Louvre (afair) Italian canvas with the Archangel Michael s feet stomping the
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 5, 2004
                Greetings!
                >
                > Acyually he says that their "upper socks" were cloth
                > of gold, though he says nothing about the rest of the
                > sock in the boot. From the iconograpghy of the period
                > and some post period sources like Olearius, linen and
                > wool are much more common. What's your take, Alexi?

                My take is like linen cloth (onuchi), in the way shown in one Louvre (afair) Italian canvas with the Archangel Michael's feet stomping the devil. Last year I just failed to record from TV a 190* documentary showing a peasant woman draping her feet in the same way (the only difference was that the archangel left his heels and toes undraped, and Russian peasants covered them as well). That was for summer. For winter they (no info about the imported goods, just what they had in wealthy households) had knitted wool ("hoofy" socks) and - and! - they could make woolen onuchi. No idea when that started, but in 19 century peasants wore wool on their feet and ankles as often as they wore hemp, cotton and linen.

                But as well, we should remember that felt boots were most popular winter footwear, so it makes like this, wool+leather boots OR hemp/cotton/linen/nothing+felt boots.

                But, still - what did you mean by lapti pants?

                Bye,
                Alex
              • Tim Nalley
                Alexi, DOH! Wrong part of the appendage! I meant the portki. My question though is about the valenki, the felt boots. Have you found any mention of soles or
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 5, 2004
                  Alexi,
                  DOH! Wrong part of the appendage! I meant the
                  portki. My question though is about the valenki, the
                  felt boots. Have you found any mention of soles or
                  pattens or spikes for ice in period in your research?
                  I would also like to know whether the onuchi were worn
                  INSIDE the valenki? I'm doing my wool and linen
                  outfits right now and was curious.
                  'dak
                  --- "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Greetings!
                  > >
                  > > Acyually he says that their "upper socks" were
                  > cloth
                  > > of gold, though he says nothing about the rest of
                  > the
                  > > sock in the boot. From the iconograpghy of the
                  > period
                  > > and some post period sources like Olearius, linen
                  > and
                  > > wool are much more common. What's your take,
                  > Alexi?
                  >
                  > My take is like linen cloth (onuchi), in the way
                  > shown in one Louvre (afair) Italian canvas with the
                  > Archangel Michael's feet stomping the devil. Last
                  > year I just failed to record from TV a 190*
                  > documentary showing a peasant woman draping her feet
                  > in the same way (the only difference was that the
                  > archangel left his heels and toes undraped, and
                  > Russian peasants covered them as well). That was for
                  > summer. For winter they (no info about the imported
                  > goods, just what they had in wealthy households) had
                  > knitted wool ("hoofy" socks) and - and! - they could
                  > make woolen onuchi. No idea when that started, but
                  > in 19 century peasants wore wool on their feet and
                  > ankles as often as they wore hemp, cotton and linen.
                  >
                  > But as well, we should remember that felt boots were
                  > most popular winter footwear, so it makes like this,
                  > wool+leather boots OR hemp/cotton/linen/nothing+felt
                  > boots.
                  >
                  > But, still - what did you mean by lapti pants?
                  >
                  > Bye,
                  > Alex
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  > sig-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Alexey Kiyaikin
                  Greetings! Friday, March 05, 2004, 8:14:41 PM, you wrote: TN Alexi, TN DOH! Wrong part of the appendage! I meant the TN portki. My question though is
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 5, 2004
                    Greetings!

                    Friday, March 05, 2004, 8:14:41 PM, you wrote:

                    TN> Alexi,
                    TN> DOH! Wrong part of the appendage! I meant the
                    TN> portki. My question though is about the valenki, the
                    TN> felt boots. Have you found any mention of soles or
                    Haven't, tyhough never dug the question deep enough.
                    TN> pattens or spikes for ice in period in your research?
                    No such stuff. Stiff sole (able to bear spikes)
                    is a rather an OOP device for Russia. When
                    you fare on snow, there's no need to use spikes. I'd say valenki had
                    soles rather for longer durability but not for walking on hard
                    pavements. Afair, the [mercenaries'] boots with metal on the soles were
                    invented for stone-paved Western European roads. In Russia they never
                    paved roads with stone in period.
                    TN> I would also like to know whether the onuchi were worn
                    TN> INSIDE the valenki? I'm doing my wool and linen
                    Of course! It's the ancestor of all socks, I'd say.
                    TN> outfits right now and was curious.
                    TN> 'dak
                    TN> --- "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...>
                    TN> wrote:
                    >>




                    --
                    Bye,
                    Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
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