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Re: Good news!! Good news!!

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  • MHoll@xxx.xxx
    In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time, ... Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an ataman [ah-tah-MAHN]. I
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 2, 1999
      In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time,
      parkrobe@... writes:

      > I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
      > Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?

      Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an "ataman"
      [ah-tah-MAHN]. I have to check whether the word is in fact period if you're
      interested.

      Others on the list are more up on the history of the Cossacks. How about it,
      list?

      Predslava
    • Vaclav von Pressburg
      ... I m not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt -- an ataman (I ve also heard it as khetman ) was an elected leader, but the title could refer to
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 3, 1999
        MHoll@... wrote:

        > In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time,
        > parkrobe@... writes:
        >
        > > I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
        > > Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?
        >
        > Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an "ataman"
        > [ah-tah-MAHN]. I have to check whether the word is in fact period if you're
        > interested.

        I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt -- an "ataman"
        (I've also heard it as "khetman") was an elected leader, but the
        title could refer to the leader of an entire group of Cossacks (not
        just a small settlement). And these leaders would

        1) Control land.
        2) Negotiate with heads of government.

        So I think that the title "ataman" is too close in meaning to "baron"
        or "prince" to be used. It would be rather like somebody styling himself
        "bishop" or "duke".

        --
        Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
        vaclav@...
      • Robert Parker
        Dear Predslava, Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I ll have to think about that one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 3, 1999
          Dear Predslava,
          Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I'll have to think about that
          one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
          Anyone else?

          Thanks,
          Sergei
        • MHoll@xxx.xxx
          In a message dated 11/3/1999 10:53:40 AM Central Standard Time, ... Maybe baron in the Western sense, at least in late-period. The references for earlier
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 4, 1999
            In a message dated 11/3/1999 10:53:40 AM Central Standard Time,
            vaclav@... writes:

            > So I think that the title "ataman" is too close in meaning to "baron"
            > or "prince" to be used.

            Maybe baron in the Western sense, at least in late-period. The references for
            earlier period seem to mean "a military leader of a small force", as in
            captain of a ship or leader of a detachment of guards. Maybe like a
            lieutenant.

            Predslava,
            wishing words did not change quite so much over time... It's hard enough with
            grammar.
          • Robert Parker
            Mordak, Thanks for the advice. I like Khetman/Ataman better than anything else that I have run across. I just wonder if I can get away with it here in
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 4, 1999
              Mordak,
              Thanks for the advice. I like Khetman/Ataman better than anything
              else that I have run across. I just wonder if I can get away with it
              here in Artemisia. The royalty is a little strict when it comes to
              interpretations. I am not yet a leader on the battlefield but hope to
              be some day. Got any more info on Hetman?

              Predslava,
              I kind of like the captain of a ship thing too. I am sort of
              stylizing myself as a Black Sea privateer. That might work. Any other
              help? More info?

              So as a Cossack, could I conceivably look at an Award of Arms as a
              pardon or something? It means that I have become a noble and all
              right? What would it mean to a Cossack? Strange question, I know.

              Thanks,
              Sergei
            • MHoll@xxx.xxx
              In a message dated 11/4/1999 7:10:24 PM Central Standard Time, ... Not at this time. If I find something, I ll post. ... Well, the problem I ran into when I
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 5, 1999
                In a message dated 11/4/1999 7:10:24 PM Central Standard Time,
                parkrobe@... writes:

                > I kind of like the captain of a ship thing too. I am sort of
                > stylizing myself as a Black Sea privateer. That might work. Any other
                > help? More info?

                Not at this time. If I find something, I'll post.

                > So as a Cossack, could I conceivably look at an Award of Arms as a
                > pardon or something? It means that I have become a noble and all
                > right? What would it mean to a Cossack? Strange question, I know.

                Well, the problem I ran into when I was working on the alternate title list
                for Russian personae is that medieval Russian titles do not correspond to
                Western European titles, much less to the SCA structure. Until very late in
                our period, i.e. mid to late Muscovy, nobility and power were fluid concepts.
                In Novgorod, for instance, major families can be traced over centuries as
                powerful and wealthy, but from everything I read, it seems to me that power
                and wealth, which depend on land ownership more than anything else (except
                residence in the city) can come and go.

                It is very easy to play "gentry" as a Russian persona, since the social
                structure was not as rigid as in the West. There were no serfs, no lieges.
                You had the Rurikid dynasty, which married in and out any other group as they
                pleased. Then there were all the other free people who could earn or lose a
                fortune, and their fortune determined their power. Poorer people still had a
                say in "veche" meetings (sort of an open democracy thing). Then you had
                slaves and bonded servants who often sold themselves into slavery to escape
                debt and poverty. Slavery was quite strictly legislated, it's not the
                Roman-Hollywoodian type of slavery. Even slaves had rights.

                Well, you did ask a very complicated question. I have solved it by splitting
                my SCA play. As Predslava, I am a XII-century boiarynia: a wealthy landowner.
                My awards in the SCA are part of my SCA play, not unlike foreign ventures for
                my persona, but they don't have much to do with my persona-story (just with
                my playing in the SCA).

                It certainly doesn't mean that I don't appreciate my AoA. It just means it
                does not affect my historical research and play. Split personality, as I said.

                Predslava
              • timbo@xxxxxx.xxx
                Sergei, If you lead a warband of your cronies on the field, you could also style yourself as a hetman or cossack chief. Its 16 C but Russian peasants who ran
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 5, 1999
                  Sergei,
                  If you lead a warband of your cronies on the field, you could also
                  style yourself as a "hetman" or cossack chief. Its 16 C but Russian
                  peasants who ran away from the estates to 'The Field' (Ukraine) or
                  the lower Reaches of the Volga or Don Rivers often styled themselves
                  as Freemen" or cossacks / Kozak. Be a hetman.
                  'dak


                  Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:55:15 -0700
                  From: Robert Parker <parkrobe@...>
                  To: sig@onelist.com
                  Reply-to: sig@onelist.com
                  Subject: Re: [sig] Good news!! Good news!!

                  From: Robert Parker <parkrobe@...>

                  Dear Predslava,
                  Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I'll have to think about that
                  one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
                  Anyone else?

                  Thanks,
                  Sergei

                  Slavic Interest Group homepage:
                  http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
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