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Re: Good news!! Good news!!

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  • Robert Parker
    Thanks, Predslava. Looks like Pomestnik for me then. I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Pomestnik Sergei
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 2, 1999
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      Thanks, Predslava.
      Looks like Pomestnik for me then. I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
      Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?

      Thanks,
      Pomestnik Sergei
    • MHoll@xxx.xxx
      In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time, ... Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an ataman [ah-tah-MAHN]. I
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 1999
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        In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time,
        parkrobe@... writes:

        > I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
        > Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?

        Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an "ataman"
        [ah-tah-MAHN]. I have to check whether the word is in fact period if you're
        interested.

        Others on the list are more up on the history of the Cossacks. How about it,
        list?

        Predslava
      • Vaclav von Pressburg
        ... I m not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt -- an ataman (I ve also heard it as khetman ) was an elected leader, but the title could refer to
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 3, 1999
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          MHoll@... wrote:

          > In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time,
          > parkrobe@... writes:
          >
          > > I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
          > > Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?
          >
          > Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an "ataman"
          > [ah-tah-MAHN]. I have to check whether the word is in fact period if you're
          > interested.

          I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt -- an "ataman"
          (I've also heard it as "khetman") was an elected leader, but the
          title could refer to the leader of an entire group of Cossacks (not
          just a small settlement). And these leaders would

          1) Control land.
          2) Negotiate with heads of government.

          So I think that the title "ataman" is too close in meaning to "baron"
          or "prince" to be used. It would be rather like somebody styling himself
          "bishop" or "duke".

          --
          Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
          vaclav@...
        • Robert Parker
          Dear Predslava, Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I ll have to think about that one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 3, 1999
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            Dear Predslava,
            Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I'll have to think about that
            one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
            Anyone else?

            Thanks,
            Sergei
          • MHoll@xxx.xxx
            In a message dated 11/3/1999 10:53:40 AM Central Standard Time, ... Maybe baron in the Western sense, at least in late-period. The references for earlier
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 4, 1999
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              In a message dated 11/3/1999 10:53:40 AM Central Standard Time,
              vaclav@... writes:

              > So I think that the title "ataman" is too close in meaning to "baron"
              > or "prince" to be used.

              Maybe baron in the Western sense, at least in late-period. The references for
              earlier period seem to mean "a military leader of a small force", as in
              captain of a ship or leader of a detachment of guards. Maybe like a
              lieutenant.

              Predslava,
              wishing words did not change quite so much over time... It's hard enough with
              grammar.
            • Robert Parker
              Mordak, Thanks for the advice. I like Khetman/Ataman better than anything else that I have run across. I just wonder if I can get away with it here in
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 4, 1999
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                Mordak,
                Thanks for the advice. I like Khetman/Ataman better than anything
                else that I have run across. I just wonder if I can get away with it
                here in Artemisia. The royalty is a little strict when it comes to
                interpretations. I am not yet a leader on the battlefield but hope to
                be some day. Got any more info on Hetman?

                Predslava,
                I kind of like the captain of a ship thing too. I am sort of
                stylizing myself as a Black Sea privateer. That might work. Any other
                help? More info?

                So as a Cossack, could I conceivably look at an Award of Arms as a
                pardon or something? It means that I have become a noble and all
                right? What would it mean to a Cossack? Strange question, I know.

                Thanks,
                Sergei
              • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 11/4/1999 7:10:24 PM Central Standard Time, ... Not at this time. If I find something, I ll post. ... Well, the problem I ran into when I
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 5, 1999
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                  In a message dated 11/4/1999 7:10:24 PM Central Standard Time,
                  parkrobe@... writes:

                  > I kind of like the captain of a ship thing too. I am sort of
                  > stylizing myself as a Black Sea privateer. That might work. Any other
                  > help? More info?

                  Not at this time. If I find something, I'll post.

                  > So as a Cossack, could I conceivably look at an Award of Arms as a
                  > pardon or something? It means that I have become a noble and all
                  > right? What would it mean to a Cossack? Strange question, I know.

                  Well, the problem I ran into when I was working on the alternate title list
                  for Russian personae is that medieval Russian titles do not correspond to
                  Western European titles, much less to the SCA structure. Until very late in
                  our period, i.e. mid to late Muscovy, nobility and power were fluid concepts.
                  In Novgorod, for instance, major families can be traced over centuries as
                  powerful and wealthy, but from everything I read, it seems to me that power
                  and wealth, which depend on land ownership more than anything else (except
                  residence in the city) can come and go.

                  It is very easy to play "gentry" as a Russian persona, since the social
                  structure was not as rigid as in the West. There were no serfs, no lieges.
                  You had the Rurikid dynasty, which married in and out any other group as they
                  pleased. Then there were all the other free people who could earn or lose a
                  fortune, and their fortune determined their power. Poorer people still had a
                  say in "veche" meetings (sort of an open democracy thing). Then you had
                  slaves and bonded servants who often sold themselves into slavery to escape
                  debt and poverty. Slavery was quite strictly legislated, it's not the
                  Roman-Hollywoodian type of slavery. Even slaves had rights.

                  Well, you did ask a very complicated question. I have solved it by splitting
                  my SCA play. As Predslava, I am a XII-century boiarynia: a wealthy landowner.
                  My awards in the SCA are part of my SCA play, not unlike foreign ventures for
                  my persona, but they don't have much to do with my persona-story (just with
                  my playing in the SCA).

                  It certainly doesn't mean that I don't appreciate my AoA. It just means it
                  does not affect my historical research and play. Split personality, as I said.

                  Predslava
                • timbo@xxxxxx.xxx
                  Sergei, If you lead a warband of your cronies on the field, you could also style yourself as a hetman or cossack chief. Its 16 C but Russian peasants who ran
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 5, 1999
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                    Sergei,
                    If you lead a warband of your cronies on the field, you could also
                    style yourself as a "hetman" or cossack chief. Its 16 C but Russian
                    peasants who ran away from the estates to 'The Field' (Ukraine) or
                    the lower Reaches of the Volga or Don Rivers often styled themselves
                    as Freemen" or cossacks / Kozak. Be a hetman.
                    'dak


                    Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:55:15 -0700
                    From: Robert Parker <parkrobe@...>
                    To: sig@onelist.com
                    Reply-to: sig@onelist.com
                    Subject: Re: [sig] Good news!! Good news!!

                    From: Robert Parker <parkrobe@...>

                    Dear Predslava,
                    Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I'll have to think about that
                    one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
                    Anyone else?

                    Thanks,
                    Sergei

                    Slavic Interest Group homepage:
                    http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
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