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  • Robert Parker
    Greetings unto all, I am happy to announce that I, Sergei Stepanovich Bezrukov, have received my Award of Arms. It was presented to me at a local barony event
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 1, 1999
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      Greetings unto all,
      I am happy to announce that I, Sergei Stepanovich Bezrukov, have
      received my Award of Arms. It was presented to me at a local barony
      event called the Masked Ball on Oct. 30th AS XXXIV. There was much
      fighting, both heavy and rapier, which I took part in and won much
      glory. I also created a mask for the ball and the subsequent
      competition. Much to my surprise, I won best mask for the men. All in
      all, it was a good day for me.

      I have a dilemma that has sprung from this wonderful event, though.
      My new title is a little distressing to me.
      Pomestnik- I don't like and it has a poor ring combined with my
      name.
      Gospodin- From what I remember is out of period, but what I would
      prefer.
      Boyarin- Can I just call myself "Boyarin Sergei"? How about "Sergei
      . . ., Boyarin of Artemisia"?
      Pan- Isn't that Polish. Sounds silly anyway with my name. (Don't
      mean to offend any Poles)

      Any other options. I know that this has been hashed and rehashed
      but . . . Any help? Ideas?

      Humbly in service to the dream,
      Pomestnik Sergei (for now)
    • MHoll@xxx.xxx
      In a message dated 11/1/1999 6:13:49 PM Central Standard Time, ... Sergei ... Gospodin is not a title. It s a fairly generic form of address that was not
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 2, 1999
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        In a message dated 11/1/1999 6:13:49 PM Central Standard Time,
        parkrobe@... writes:

        > Gospodin- From what I remember is out of period, but what I would
        > prefer. Boyarin- Can I just call myself "Boyarin Sergei"? How about
        "Sergei
        > . . ., Boyarin of Artemisia"?

        Gospodin is not a title. It's a fairly generic form of address that was not
        limited to the nobility. Just to anyone with more status -- social, age,
        position, or even simply to be polite. It is a perfectly period word, and
        anyone could call anyone else "gospodin" if they wanted to show respect to an
        elder, better, client (for a merchant), etc.

        Boyarin is fine, if your persona is early, i.e. pre-Muscovite. In the earlier
        centuries, especially in Novgorod, "boiarin" ("boiarynia" for a woman) simply
        denoted a man of some standing, i.e. a nobleman. In Muscovy, however, it was
        reserved for the high nobility, and would not suit the equivalent of an SCA
        AoA. More for a peer.

        Because of this significant difference in time within our period, the term
        "boiarin" has been left out of the official Alternate Title List. Therefore
        you are free to use it "unofficially". But I would recommend it to you only
        if your persona is pre-Muscovite.

        If that fits you, then you would call yourself "boiarin Sergei" and you
        might add a patronymic to make it more formal and impressive. But you don't
        have to.

        Predslava.
      • Robert Parker
        Thanks, Predslava. Looks like Pomestnik for me then. I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions? Thanks, Pomestnik Sergei
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 2, 1999
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          Thanks, Predslava.
          Looks like Pomestnik for me then. I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
          Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?

          Thanks,
          Pomestnik Sergei
        • MHoll@xxx.xxx
          In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time, ... Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an ataman [ah-tah-MAHN]. I
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 2, 1999
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            In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time,
            parkrobe@... writes:

            > I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
            > Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?

            Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an "ataman"
            [ah-tah-MAHN]. I have to check whether the word is in fact period if you're
            interested.

            Others on the list are more up on the history of the Cossacks. How about it,
            list?

            Predslava
          • Vaclav von Pressburg
            ... I m not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt -- an ataman (I ve also heard it as khetman ) was an elected leader, but the title could refer to
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 3, 1999
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              MHoll@... wrote:

              > In a message dated 11/2/1999 12:10:57 PM Central Standard Time,
              > parkrobe@... writes:
              >
              > > I am a 1550 Cossack. So I guess
              > > Boyarin is out. Any other suggestions?
              >
              > Well, if you are a Cossack, you can make yourself a chief, an "ataman"
              > [ah-tah-MAHN]. I have to check whether the word is in fact period if you're
              > interested.

              I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain of salt -- an "ataman"
              (I've also heard it as "khetman") was an elected leader, but the
              title could refer to the leader of an entire group of Cossacks (not
              just a small settlement). And these leaders would

              1) Control land.
              2) Negotiate with heads of government.

              So I think that the title "ataman" is too close in meaning to "baron"
              or "prince" to be used. It would be rather like somebody styling himself
              "bishop" or "duke".

              --
              Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
              vaclav@...
            • Robert Parker
              Dear Predslava, Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I ll have to think about that one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 3, 1999
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                Dear Predslava,
                Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I'll have to think about that
                one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
                Anyone else?

                Thanks,
                Sergei
              • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                In a message dated 11/3/1999 10:53:40 AM Central Standard Time, ... Maybe baron in the Western sense, at least in late-period. The references for earlier
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 4, 1999
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                  In a message dated 11/3/1999 10:53:40 AM Central Standard Time,
                  vaclav@... writes:

                  > So I think that the title "ataman" is too close in meaning to "baron"
                  > or "prince" to be used.

                  Maybe baron in the Western sense, at least in late-period. The references for
                  earlier period seem to mean "a military leader of a small force", as in
                  captain of a ship or leader of a detachment of guards. Maybe like a
                  lieutenant.

                  Predslava,
                  wishing words did not change quite so much over time... It's hard enough with
                  grammar.
                • Robert Parker
                  Mordak, Thanks for the advice. I like Khetman/Ataman better than anything else that I have run across. I just wonder if I can get away with it here in
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 4, 1999
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                    Mordak,
                    Thanks for the advice. I like Khetman/Ataman better than anything
                    else that I have run across. I just wonder if I can get away with it
                    here in Artemisia. The royalty is a little strict when it comes to
                    interpretations. I am not yet a leader on the battlefield but hope to
                    be some day. Got any more info on Hetman?

                    Predslava,
                    I kind of like the captain of a ship thing too. I am sort of
                    stylizing myself as a Black Sea privateer. That might work. Any other
                    help? More info?

                    So as a Cossack, could I conceivably look at an Award of Arms as a
                    pardon or something? It means that I have become a noble and all
                    right? What would it mean to a Cossack? Strange question, I know.

                    Thanks,
                    Sergei
                  • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                    In a message dated 11/4/1999 7:10:24 PM Central Standard Time, ... Not at this time. If I find something, I ll post. ... Well, the problem I ran into when I
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 5, 1999
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                      In a message dated 11/4/1999 7:10:24 PM Central Standard Time,
                      parkrobe@... writes:

                      > I kind of like the captain of a ship thing too. I am sort of
                      > stylizing myself as a Black Sea privateer. That might work. Any other
                      > help? More info?

                      Not at this time. If I find something, I'll post.

                      > So as a Cossack, could I conceivably look at an Award of Arms as a
                      > pardon or something? It means that I have become a noble and all
                      > right? What would it mean to a Cossack? Strange question, I know.

                      Well, the problem I ran into when I was working on the alternate title list
                      for Russian personae is that medieval Russian titles do not correspond to
                      Western European titles, much less to the SCA structure. Until very late in
                      our period, i.e. mid to late Muscovy, nobility and power were fluid concepts.
                      In Novgorod, for instance, major families can be traced over centuries as
                      powerful and wealthy, but from everything I read, it seems to me that power
                      and wealth, which depend on land ownership more than anything else (except
                      residence in the city) can come and go.

                      It is very easy to play "gentry" as a Russian persona, since the social
                      structure was not as rigid as in the West. There were no serfs, no lieges.
                      You had the Rurikid dynasty, which married in and out any other group as they
                      pleased. Then there were all the other free people who could earn or lose a
                      fortune, and their fortune determined their power. Poorer people still had a
                      say in "veche" meetings (sort of an open democracy thing). Then you had
                      slaves and bonded servants who often sold themselves into slavery to escape
                      debt and poverty. Slavery was quite strictly legislated, it's not the
                      Roman-Hollywoodian type of slavery. Even slaves had rights.

                      Well, you did ask a very complicated question. I have solved it by splitting
                      my SCA play. As Predslava, I am a XII-century boiarynia: a wealthy landowner.
                      My awards in the SCA are part of my SCA play, not unlike foreign ventures for
                      my persona, but they don't have much to do with my persona-story (just with
                      my playing in the SCA).

                      It certainly doesn't mean that I don't appreciate my AoA. It just means it
                      does not affect my historical research and play. Split personality, as I said.

                      Predslava
                    • timbo@xxxxxx.xxx
                      Sergei, If you lead a warband of your cronies on the field, you could also style yourself as a hetman or cossack chief. Its 16 C but Russian peasants who ran
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 5, 1999
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                        Sergei,
                        If you lead a warband of your cronies on the field, you could also
                        style yourself as a "hetman" or cossack chief. Its 16 C but Russian
                        peasants who ran away from the estates to 'The Field' (Ukraine) or
                        the lower Reaches of the Volga or Don Rivers often styled themselves
                        as Freemen" or cossacks / Kozak. Be a hetman.
                        'dak


                        Date: Wed, 03 Nov 1999 09:55:15 -0700
                        From: Robert Parker <parkrobe@...>
                        To: sig@onelist.com
                        Reply-to: sig@onelist.com
                        Subject: Re: [sig] Good news!! Good news!!

                        From: Robert Parker <parkrobe@...>

                        Dear Predslava,
                        Hmm. . . Ataman. I kind of like it. I'll have to think about that
                        one. If you would check on that for periodicity I would appreciate it.
                        Anyone else?

                        Thanks,
                        Sergei

                        Slavic Interest Group homepage:
                        http://www.uwplatt.edu/~goldschp/slavic.html
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