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Re[2]: [sig] Folklore (was Re: Digest Number 1219)

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin
    Greetings Waclaw! Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote: VvP Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably) VvP show a direct
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
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      Greetings Waclaw!

      Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote:

      VvP> Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
      VvP> show a direct development of these recipes from the European
      VvP> originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
      VvP> 20th century from central Europe.

      Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
      do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
      false? What immigrants changed THEM?


      --
      Bye,
      Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
    • Alexey Kiyaikin
      Greetings Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote: Mac Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES Mac by A. Lord. I Am
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
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        Greetings

        Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote:



        Mac> Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
        Mac> by A. Lord.

        I Am interested. I AM involved. Please do the job usually required at
        Laurel events for literature that can't be obtained & understood by
        others (e.g. when there's a language barrier). In my case I can't get
        the book even if it's in Russia. Lenin library's sources are blocked
        mainly. Please do the citing if you really need my reaction to your
        argument. I need not "get what you must know because we do" but the
        correct idea you are referring to for the third time. I doubt I'm the
        only one in this position here.



        --
        Bye,
        Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
      • Jose Alire
        Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it Julie wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
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          Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it

          Julie <garden@...> wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
          onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
          halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
          water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
          water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
          bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
          your stomach will thank you.

          Margita
        • jennifer knox
          hi! interesting. would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern,
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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            hi! interesting.
            would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
            anya


            Julie <garden@...> wrote:
            In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
            onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds.
            [snipped by moderator]
          • jennifer knox
            then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe? anya Alexey
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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              then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe?
              anya

              "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...> wrote:

              Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine.
              [snipped by moderator]
            • Julie
              Yes, please! I m sure they re good, even if they take only a few hours to prepare ; ) J ... [snipped by moderator. Don t include posts that *other* people
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                Yes, please! I'm sure they're good, even if they take only a few hours to
                prepare ; )

                J


                At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                >hi! interesting.
                >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                >anya

                [snipped by moderator. Don't include posts that *other* people have replied to.]
              • Jeanne
                Yes, I d be very interested in them also! Soffya Appollonia Tudja http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                  Yes, I'd be very interested in them also!

                  Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                  http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                  Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                  three fleur-de-lys Or



                  At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                  >hi! interesting.
                  >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                  >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                  >anya


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Vaclav von Pressburg
                  On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote: . . . ... It s not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the availability of new
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                    On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:
                    . . .
                    > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                    > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                    > false? What immigrants changed THEM?

                    It's not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the
                    availability of new ingredients. These recipes are preserved and
                    passed on because they are loved. They become changed because they
                    are subject to the creative tendencies of the various generations of
                    cooks who learned them by imitating their parents.

                    "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed because of entropy.

                    I have a small book that I picked up in college that I was looking
                    at several months ago (and of course I can't find it right now).
                    It was published in Moscow in the 1950's and the title is approximately
                    "Exercises in Historical Russian Grammar" (cost 50 kopeks!) When
                    I bought it I was only interested in historical desinences, but I
                    recently wanted to look at what the author had to say about the
                    development of phonology. In the section where the author talks
                    about the Common Slavic *v in Russian, he says that this was
                    pronounced as a semi-vowel (like the English "w"), which he writes
                    as a Cyrillic "u" (looks like Roman "y") with a breve over it. He
                    gives the various developments in the different Eastern Slavic
                    languages and points out one Russian oblast where he says that "at
                    the current time" all "v", both initial and final, are pronounced
                    as "w".

                    Does such a dialect still exist after all these years of unified
                    national school curriculum? If it does, what does that imply about the
                    extent of this characteristic in the mostly unreported dialects of
                    150 or 200 years ago?

                    What is not written will change. What is written might be wrong, but
                    it can be preserved as a witness of someone's observations at the
                    time that it was written.

                    --
                    Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                    vaclav@...
                  • Vaclav von Pressburg
                    ... This sounds wonderful! -- Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos vaclav@bermls.oau.org
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                      On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:54:10AM -0700, jennifer knox wrote:
                      > hi! interesting.
                      > would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however

                      This sounds wonderful!

                      --
                      Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                      vaclav@...
                    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                      ... Not false . Just not period documentation . Whether you like it or not, whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over time,
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                        > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                        > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                        > false? What immigrants changed THEM?
                        >

                        Not 'false'. Just not 'period documentation'. Whether you like it or not,
                        whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over
                        time, and the stories they tell over time get subtly shifted. I know you
                        would like to believe that all Russian cultural artifacts, including
                        folklore, was preserved precious and unchanged, but social scientists have
                        shown, in areas where we do have documentation to compare to folklore,
                        that it doesn't work that way.



                        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                        "If one by one we counted people out
                        For the least sin, it wouldn't take us long
                        To get so that we had no one left to live with.
                        For to be social is to be forgiving. " -- Robert Frost, "The Star-Splitter"
                      • shannon anderson
                        I don t know if anyone has seen them, but I found these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                          I don't know if anyone has seen them, but I found
                          these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress
                          website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                          after someone's estate was settled. They are pictures
                          of russia taken with various color filters and them
                          layered to make it look like they are color photos, in
                          the pre-color-photo era.

                          Check it out...
                          http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/
                          > "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed
                          > because of entropy.
                          I would LOVE to see the math for this!! ;)

                          this email brought to you by entropy,

                          Margarita


                          =====
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          "What saves man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it."
                          -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          Shannon Anderson
                          kitonlove@...

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                        • Lente
                          Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of ricotta
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                            Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know
                            that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of
                            ricotta cheese. why? Mostly a cost issue but also it use to be very hard to
                            find ricotta cheese in the grocery stores here in the US. Quite possibly the
                            same change happened because it was hard to find the bryndza (or any other
                            soft sheep cheese) here in the US.

                            Just a thought on how substitutions can happen.
                            Kathws

                            Alex sent on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:40 AM:> Greetings!
                            > >
                            > > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                            any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with
                            bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt
                            used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can
                            also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like
                            chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr)
                            would have been what i described. what you described is definately a
                            blending of recipes
                          • Alex Grant [T]
                            A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one time. Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                              A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one
                              time.
                              Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.


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