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Re[2]: [sig] Folklore (was Re: Digest Number 1219)

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  • Alexey Kiyaikin
    Greetings Waclaw! Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote: VvP Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably) VvP show a direct
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
      Greetings Waclaw!

      Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote:

      VvP> Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
      VvP> show a direct development of these recipes from the European
      VvP> originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
      VvP> 20th century from central Europe.

      Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
      do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
      false? What immigrants changed THEM?


      --
      Bye,
      Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
    • Alexey Kiyaikin
      Greetings Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote: Mac Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES Mac by A. Lord. I Am
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
        Greetings

        Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote:



        Mac> Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
        Mac> by A. Lord.

        I Am interested. I AM involved. Please do the job usually required at
        Laurel events for literature that can't be obtained & understood by
        others (e.g. when there's a language barrier). In my case I can't get
        the book even if it's in Russia. Lenin library's sources are blocked
        mainly. Please do the citing if you really need my reaction to your
        argument. I need not "get what you must know because we do" but the
        correct idea you are referring to for the third time. I doubt I'm the
        only one in this position here.



        --
        Bye,
        Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
      • Jose Alire
        Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it Julie wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
          Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it

          Julie <garden@...> wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
          onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
          halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
          water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
          water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
          bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
          your stomach will thank you.

          Margita
        • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
          Greetings! ... Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
            Greetings!
            >
            > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
            >
            >
            Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The Russian analog, Klyotski, is also not typically Russian, but can't remembver where it was borrowed. Seems like Finnish couisine but am not sure without literature (I forgot when I last answered anything from home computer, and of course no literature at work)


            Bye,
            Alex
          • jennifer knox
            hi! interesting. would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern,
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
              hi! interesting.
              would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
              anya


              Julie <garden@...> wrote:
              In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
              onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds.
              [snipped by moderator]
            • jennifer knox
              then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe? anya Alexey
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe?
                anya

                "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...> wrote:

                Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine.
                [snipped by moderator]
              • Julie
                Yes, please! I m sure they re good, even if they take only a few hours to prepare ; ) J ... [snipped by moderator. Don t include posts that *other* people
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                  Yes, please! I'm sure they're good, even if they take only a few hours to
                  prepare ; )

                  J


                  At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                  >hi! interesting.
                  >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                  >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                  >anya

                  [snipped by moderator. Don't include posts that *other* people have replied to.]
                • Jeanne
                  Yes, I d be very interested in them also! Soffya Appollonia Tudja http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                    Yes, I'd be very interested in them also!

                    Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                    http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                    Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                    three fleur-de-lys Or



                    At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                    >hi! interesting.
                    >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                    >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                    >anya


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Vaclav von Pressburg
                    On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote: . . . ... It s not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the availability of new
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                      On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:
                      . . .
                      > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                      > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                      > false? What immigrants changed THEM?

                      It's not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the
                      availability of new ingredients. These recipes are preserved and
                      passed on because they are loved. They become changed because they
                      are subject to the creative tendencies of the various generations of
                      cooks who learned them by imitating their parents.

                      "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed because of entropy.

                      I have a small book that I picked up in college that I was looking
                      at several months ago (and of course I can't find it right now).
                      It was published in Moscow in the 1950's and the title is approximately
                      "Exercises in Historical Russian Grammar" (cost 50 kopeks!) When
                      I bought it I was only interested in historical desinences, but I
                      recently wanted to look at what the author had to say about the
                      development of phonology. In the section where the author talks
                      about the Common Slavic *v in Russian, he says that this was
                      pronounced as a semi-vowel (like the English "w"), which he writes
                      as a Cyrillic "u" (looks like Roman "y") with a breve over it. He
                      gives the various developments in the different Eastern Slavic
                      languages and points out one Russian oblast where he says that "at
                      the current time" all "v", both initial and final, are pronounced
                      as "w".

                      Does such a dialect still exist after all these years of unified
                      national school curriculum? If it does, what does that imply about the
                      extent of this characteristic in the mostly unreported dialects of
                      150 or 200 years ago?

                      What is not written will change. What is written might be wrong, but
                      it can be preserved as a witness of someone's observations at the
                      time that it was written.

                      --
                      Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                      vaclav@...
                    • Vaclav von Pressburg
                      ... This sounds wonderful! -- Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos vaclav@bermls.oau.org
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                        On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:54:10AM -0700, jennifer knox wrote:
                        > hi! interesting.
                        > would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however

                        This sounds wonderful!

                        --
                        Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                        vaclav@...
                      • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                        ... Not false . Just not period documentation . Whether you like it or not, whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over time,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                          > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                          > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                          > false? What immigrants changed THEM?
                          >

                          Not 'false'. Just not 'period documentation'. Whether you like it or not,
                          whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over
                          time, and the stories they tell over time get subtly shifted. I know you
                          would like to believe that all Russian cultural artifacts, including
                          folklore, was preserved precious and unchanged, but social scientists have
                          shown, in areas where we do have documentation to compare to folklore,
                          that it doesn't work that way.



                          -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                          "If one by one we counted people out
                          For the least sin, it wouldn't take us long
                          To get so that we had no one left to live with.
                          For to be social is to be forgiving. " -- Robert Frost, "The Star-Splitter"
                        • shannon anderson
                          I don t know if anyone has seen them, but I found these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                            I don't know if anyone has seen them, but I found
                            these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress
                            website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                            after someone's estate was settled. They are pictures
                            of russia taken with various color filters and them
                            layered to make it look like they are color photos, in
                            the pre-color-photo era.

                            Check it out...
                            http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/
                            > "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed
                            > because of entropy.
                            I would LOVE to see the math for this!! ;)

                            this email brought to you by entropy,

                            Margarita


                            =====
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            "What saves man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it."
                            -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            Shannon Anderson
                            kitonlove@...

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                          • Lente
                            Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of ricotta
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                              Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know
                              that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of
                              ricotta cheese. why? Mostly a cost issue but also it use to be very hard to
                              find ricotta cheese in the grocery stores here in the US. Quite possibly the
                              same change happened because it was hard to find the bryndza (or any other
                              soft sheep cheese) here in the US.

                              Just a thought on how substitutions can happen.
                              Kathws

                              Alex sent on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:40 AM:> Greetings!
                              > >
                              > > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                              any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with
                              bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt
                              used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can
                              also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like
                              chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr)
                              would have been what i described. what you described is definately a
                              blending of recipes
                            • Alex Grant [T]
                              A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one time. Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one
                                time.
                                Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.


                                [Severely edited by moderator. DO NOT quote entire messages in posts if they are longer than what you are writing!]
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