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RE: [sig] Re: Queries on Bohemian Adamites

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  • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
    ... Probably not. Communal use of women is a lot more likely in a patriarchal society than free love and patriarchal language is much more likely to
    Message 1 of 9 , Jul 8, 2003
      > When I read passages like the one you cite (Alistair quoting from a
      >Thomas Fudge article, who is quoting a contemporary chronicler, who is
      >quoting someone quoting the Bible!), and read the indignant observors
      >referring to 'the communal use of women' , I wonder if it really shows
      >the (patriarchal) bias of chroniclers & historians — or does it
      >actually reflect how things were? Does it reflect a failure of
      >imagination on the part of the particular observor (in this case,
      >probably Laurence of Brzezova or Aenius Silvius), to think that women are
      >actively initiating these activities and NOT being used?

      Probably not. 'Communal use of women' is a lot more likely in a
      patriarchal society than 'free love' and patriarchal language is much
      more likely to comment negatively but to the point if women are actively
      initiating these activities. Contrary to popular feminist belief,
      'patriarchal' writers in the middle ages believed quite strongly in
      women's sex drives, to the point of being frightened by them.

      > Given the lack of concrete information, you can only guess and
      >extrapolate. But given that women were actually occupying central roles
      >in this movement, it isn't inconceivable that they'd be playing a more
      >active part in seeking their own pleasure and throwing off the
      >restrictions of medieval society.

      If they had been, wouldn't the chroniclers, who are always ready to remark
      on women's voracious sexual appetites, have said so? Expecially in
      powerful women.

      So, as you say, there's no way to tell.

      -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
      "I know. You know I know. I know you know I know. We know Henry knows, and
      Henry knows we know it. *smiles* We're a knowledgable family." -- _Lion in
      Winter_
    • Annah Almaziful
      Wow lots of interesting stuff in this discussion for us bohemiaphiles ;)I haven t really come across much in my research about the Adamites - what = I ve
      Message 2 of 9 , Jul 9, 2003
        Wow lots of interesting stuff in this discussion for us bohemiaphiles ;)

        I haven't really come across much in my research about the Adamites - what =

        I've read notes that they were pretty much exterminated by Zizka's army. W=
        hat
        I know you probably already know - the Picardists/Adamites were part of the=

        stream of Waldensian thought and came to Bohemia with high hopes for
        religious tolerance only to be swept up in a religious war and all but
        obliterated. Adamites were too radical for the radicals, with all that nudi=
        ty and
        free lovin' heehee. Anyways, I understand that the movement enjoyed a brie=
        f
        revival in the 18th century, but once again were just too radical and had t=
        o be
        smashed down.

        So... Don't have much information for you on that. You can check the Lollar=
        d
        Society Bibliography for sources both general to lollardy and specific to
        Central Europe - there may be the odd unindexed reference in one of those
        books to your interest area ;) http://lollard.home.att.net/bibhome.html

        As for Women in Medieval Bohemia. John Klassen argues that women
        enjoyed a degree of freedom both financially and romantically which was
        unusual for medieval Europe. I wish there was someone else who had done
        this sort of research as I would like to see a different perspective on it.=
        .. but I
        take what I can get! See especially 'Development of the Conjugal bond' and=

        'Marriage and Family' . See also Alfred Thomas' _Anne_of_Bohemia_ for a
        decent picture of pre-Hussite Society as reflected by contemporary literatu=
        re.

        OK... here are the references for the Klassen articles. They don't always h=
        ave
        page numbers - due to my getting lazy a few months ago!

        Klassen, John. `The disadvantaged and the Hussite revolution', Internationa=
        l
        Review of Social History, 35 (1990), 249-272

        Klassen, John. "The development of the conjugal bond in late medieval
        Bohemia", in: Journal of Medieval History 13, 1987, p. 161

        Klassen, John. "Gifts for the Soul and Social Charity in Late Medieval
        Bohemia," Materielle Kultur und religiöse Stiftung im Spätmittelalter
        (Osterreichische Akademie der Wissenschaften philosophisch-historische
        klasse sitzungsberichte, 554; Vienna, 1990), pp. 61-81

        Klassen, John. "Household Composition" Journal of Medieval History. Vol. 16=
        ,
        1990. pp 55-75.

        Klassen, John. "Marriage and Family in Medieval Bohemia" East European
        Quarterly, Fall 1985.

        John M. Klassen, Women and Religious Reform in late Medieval Bohemia
        (Renaissance and Reformation 5, 1981)

        -Eliska (yes I finally decided on a persona name)
      • Annah Almaziful
        Rosanne, The Bohemian women, especially townswomen, did, to use modern terminology own their sexuality and their right to seuxal satisfaction. C= heck
        Message 3 of 9 , Jul 9, 2003
          Rosanne,

          The Bohemian women, especially townswomen, did, to use modern
          terminology 'own' their sexuality and their right to seuxal satisfaction. C=heck
          'Marriage and Family in Medieval Bohemia' by John Klassen (referenced in
          my other post two seconds ago). He uses divorce/annullment records to
          explore the nature of sexual relationships in the 14th and 15th century- LO=TS
          of case studies.

          To summarize, dating and mating occurred rather similarly to the way it doe=s
          now. People came together at markets, fairs and festivals, exchanged gifts=,
          and fooled around, sometimes even had sex. Women who claimed damages
          - for false proposal of marriage and subsequent loss of virginity- could ex=pect
          to receive about three months' wages for the plucking of their flower. Unwe=d
          mothers did exist, and non-virginhood did not appear to be an impediment to=
          marriage. People in Bohemia also travelled farther than other Europeans to=
          find mates. Frequently people from significant distances would marry and
          relocate. Women chose their sexual partners - in one case a woman asked for=
          divorce because her husband could not give her children, and she wanted to =
          bear progeny. Often their signals would get crossed - one young man thought=
          that because a girl held hands with him, they were married (the girl was
          asking for the annullment!). Women's pleasure and involvement in mating
          rituals is obvious and the Church made no noises of disapproval about thei=r
          premarital sex etc etc like we would think they would. Women fought for =
          what few rights they had, and, according to the surviving records Prof.
          Klassen uses, were active participants in all aspects of sexual relationshi=ps.

          Of course all was not peachy for ladies, spousal abuse was rampant and, as =
          in current times, they could really only hope for a gentle husband. Wealthy=
          townswomen or women of noble status could reasonably expect to have an
          arranged marriage. John Klassen makes much of the Bohemian style of
          dowry which ensured a woman a modicum of financial independence and
          allowed her to be an equal in an arranged marriage. Laws were in place to
          prevent husbands from access to this money, protecting the bride's financia=l
          standing.

          John Klassen's work is based on a small number of surviving records and
          cannot possibly be representative of the whole of bohemian society. What I =
          get from his research is that our notion of the 'extraordinary' medieval wo=man,
          who was closer to the modern woman in her expectation and achievement of
          certain rights and freedoms, is not so extra-ordinary after all. In medieva=l
          Bohemia, it appears, women who used the channels available to them to
          improve their lot in life were in slightly higher numbers than we expect. I=n
          other words, an ordinary woman - not touched by God or a highly poetic nun =
          or a finessing noblewoman or any of the legendary medieval women- could
          be personally successful in life, survival, and happiness.


          [snipped by moderator. Do not include entire posts in your replies.]
        • rosanne rabinowitz
          Yes, that was a major factor I should have mentioned when I talked about the need to extrapolate. I ve read a number of things by John Klassen, including a
          Message 4 of 9 , Jul 10, 2003
            Yes, that was a major factor I should have mentioned when I talked about the need to extrapolate.

            I've read a number of things by John Klassen, including a book Warring Maidens, Captive Wives and Hussite Queens, which contains the info you mention. In this book, he also analyses about the central myth of Libusa, Vlasta and the War of the Maidens and how that could have influenced Bohemian women's perceptions of themselves.

            And while you point out that the women Klassen talks about may not be 'typical', they do indicate such expectations were not unknown. And women active in certain heretical sects would be very likely to hold them!

            Rosanne

            --------- Original Message ---------

            DATE: Wed, 09 Jul 2003 16:09:17
            From: "Annah Almaziful"
            >Rosanne,
            >
            >The Bohemian women, especially townswomen, did, to use modern
            >terminology 'own' their sexuality and their right to seuxal satisfaction. C^@
            >heck
            >'Marriage and Family in Medieval Bohemia' by John Klassen (referenced in
            >my other post two seconds ago). He uses divorce/annullment records to
            >explore the nature of sexual relationships in the 14th and 15th century- LO^@
            >TS
            >of case studies.
            >



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          • jennifer knox
            http://archaeology.kiev.ua/journal/eng/ anya Speak softly and carry a big stick -- Teddy Roosevelt ... Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free,
            Message 5 of 9 , Aug 13, 2003
              http://archaeology.kiev.ua/journal/eng/

              anya



              "Speak softly and carry a big stick" -- Teddy Roosevelt

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