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More food-terms translation help

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  • Jenn/Yana
    I was looking for references in the Domostroi for vodka and came across the below passage. I am seeing some problems with Pouncy s translation and need some
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 29, 1999
      I was looking for references in the Domostroi for vodka and came across the
      below passage. I am seeing some problems with Pouncy's translation and
      need some input. Specifically, she translates "kisloshchennyi" as sour
      cabbage and "vinnyi" as vodka. Anyone got a better translation for these
      two words?

      I am also looking for an explanation of what the "sour cabbage" liquid is,
      because it is used as an ingredient in a recipe later in the Domostroi.
      Cariadoc has decided it is like "alegar" and I was wondering if we can come
      up with an alternative explanation. Finding an explanation of what the
      "sour cabbage" stuff really is the is why I sent out the request for help
      with the translating the "Kisslye Shchi" recipe earlier.

      The English text can be found on p 126 of Pouncy, the Russian is from
      chapter 33, about 6 paragraphs in, depending on the version.

      "I znala by takzhe, kak delat' pivnoi i medvoi, i vinnyi, i brazhnyi, i
      kvasnoi, i uksusnyi, i kisloshchennyi, i vsiakii pripas povarskoi i
      khlebnyi, i v chem chto gotovit' i skol'ko chego iz poluchitsia."

      Similarly, she [the wife] should know how they make beer, mead, vodka, weak
      beer, kvas, vinegar, and sour cabbage--every liquid normally used in
      cooking and breadmaking.

      --Yana
    • Jenn/Yana
      ... Well I already managed to find one explanation. Apparently vinnyi can mean wine or simply spirits and Pouncy decided it referred to vodka. Sigh. Any
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 29, 1999
        >I was looking for references in the Domostroi for vodka and came across the
        >below passage. I am seeing some problems with Pouncy's translation and
        >need some input. Specifically, she translates "kisloshchennyi" as sour
        >cabbage and "vinnyi" as vodka. Anyone got a better translation for these
        >two words?

        Well I already managed to find one explanation. Apparently "vinnyi" can
        mean wine or simply "spirits" and Pouncy decided it referred to vodka.
        Sigh. Any other comments on this? Something in the context that would
        lead her to think it was vodka?

        --Yana
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 10/29/1999 3:19:33 PM Central Daylight Time, ... sour ... I m sure that refers to pickling by using brine, i.e. water and
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 29, 1999
          In a message dated 10/29/1999 3:19:33 PM Central Daylight Time,
          jdmiller2@... writes:

          > I was looking for references in the Domostroi for vodka and came across the
          > below passage. <...> Specifically, she translates "kisloshchennyi" as
          sour
          > cabbage and "vinnyi" as vodka.

          I'm sure that <kisloshchennyi> refers to pickling by using brine, i.e. water
          and salt with spices but no vinegar.

          <vinnyi>, as you suspect, cannot refer to vodka, at least not in period. From
          another secondary source (with a good survey of primary sources, etc) I
          remember the comment that vodka, and other distilled spirits, did not make
          their appearance in Russia before the XVII century, and when it did,
          distillation and sale were strictly regulated by the crown (hear: state
          monopoly).

          As for the brine, if no-one has a recipe anywhere, I can look it up in some
          modern sources, but I believe that the very basic brine, with salt, is the
          logical explanation. After all, there are references elsewhere to salting,
          and besides, Russia was an exporter of salt.

          > "I znala by takzhe, kak delat' pivnoi i medvoi, i vinnyi, i brazhnyi, i
          > kvasnoi, i uksusnyi, i kisloshchennyi, i vsiakii pripas povarskoi i
          > khlebnyi, i v chem chto gotovit' i skol'ko chego iz poluchitsia."
          >
          > Similarly, she [the wife] should know how they make beer, mead, vodka, weak
          > beer, kvas, vinegar, and sour cabbage--every liquid normally used in
          > cooking and breadmaking.

          Here's the translation I suggest:

          "She should also know how to make beer, and honey, and wine, and beer, and
          kvas, and vinegar, and brine, and any other kitchen and bread preserve, and
          what to prepare it in, how much any of it makes."

          In other words, it seems fairly clear to me that the list "beer....brine"
          refers to methods of preserving things. In Russian, they are in adjectival
          form: they mean "the beer kind, and the honey kind..." etc.

          The word "povarskoi" means "of the kitchen"; I imagine it means the
          non-baking kind of preserves, and probably not the smoking and dry-salting
          kind, either.

          Predslava
        • LiudmilaV@aol.com
          In a message dated 10/29/1999 1:21:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jdmiller2@students.wisc.edu writes:
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 29, 1999
            In a message dated 10/29/1999 1:21:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
            jdmiller2@... writes:

            <<
            "I znala by takzhe, kak delat' pivnoi i medvoi, i vinnyi, i brazhnyi, i
            kvasnoi, i uksusnyi, i kisloshchennyi, i vsiakii pripas povarskoi i
            khlebnyi, i v chem chto gotovit' i skol'ko chego iz poluchitsia."

            Similarly, she [the wife] should know how they make beer, mead, vodka, weak
            beer, kvas, vinegar, and sour cabbage--every liquid normally used in
            cooking and breadmaking.
            >>

            I looked this up in the Old Russian, and it doen't sound like this. What you
            cited is a modern Russian translation (I looked it up in the same edition of
            Domostroi I have from the library). In old Russian it is actually "kislym'
            shtiam' " -- two words and not an adjective. It is a part of a run-on phrase
            that talks about other things as well, broken down in translation. I will
            make an attemt to translate this, though it is bond to be lousy:

            And any dish of meat and fish, and any food "postnoi" and "skoromnoi" she has
            to know and be able to make, and teach the servants, then she'll be a
            housewife good and prudent. Also has to know bear, and honey (mead), and
            wine, and cider, and kvas, and vinegar, and sour shchti, and any necessity
            how to prepare, cooking and bread-making, and what it comes from, and how
            much will be made.

            I do not believe that this passage is about preserves but rather about things
            that have to be available in the household on a daily basis.

            Liudmila
          • Robert J Welenc
            ... Gee, Russian housewives are *really* talented -- the rest of the world has to depend on *bees* to make honey! Alanna *********** Proverb of the day: Heroes
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 30, 1999
              >
              >"She should also know how to make beer, and honey,

              Gee, Russian housewives are *really* talented -- the rest of the
              world has to depend on *bees* to make honey!

              Alanna
              ***********
              Proverb of the day:
              Heroes and winners aren't the same thing.
            • MHoll@xxx.xxx
              In a message dated 10/29/1999 10:46:42 PM Central Daylight Time, ... things ... I ve finally looked at the Old-Russian text, and the modern Russian translation
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 30, 1999
                In a message dated 10/29/1999 10:46:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
                LiudmilaV@... writes:

                > I do not believe that this passage is about preserves but rather about
                things
                > that have to be available in the household on a daily basis.

                I've finally looked at the Old-Russian text, and the modern Russian
                translation in my copy of the Domostroi, and I have to agree with Liudmila.
                Shame on me for skipping steps in research! I guess a cluttered room does
                invite an untidy mind...

                Anyway, I'm still confused about the case use in the Old-Russian text.
                However, in the notes, the editors mention that "kislye shti" (modern <shch>
                was often written as <sht>, and there is in fact a linguistic reason for
                that, but it has nothing to do with cooking), anyway "kislye shti" is a form
                of kvas, more sour and carbonated than average, and used as drink, meat
                marinade before cooking (<zharit'> -- frying?) or in preparation of cold
                soups.

                More fuel to the fire...

                Predslava,
                now armed with her copy of The Text!
              • Jenn/Yana
                ... Oh boy! Thank you for finding this out for me (if anything, this creates impetus for me to get off my duff and study my Russian more). So does the above
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 31, 1999
                  >Anyway, I'm still confused about the case use in the Old-Russian text.
                  >However, in the notes, the editors mention that "kislye shti" (modern <shch>
                  >was often written as <sht>, and there is in fact a linguistic reason for
                  >that, but it has nothing to do with cooking), anyway "kislye shti" is a form
                  >of kvas, more sour and carbonated than average, and used as drink, meat
                  >marinade before cooking (<zharit'> -- frying?) or in preparation of cold
                  >soups.

                  Oh boy! Thank you for finding this out for me (if anything, this creates
                  impetus for me to get off my duff and study my Russian more). So does the
                  above seems to imply no cabbage in the making of this liquid or what? I
                  wonder where the editors found the reference to kislye shti originally.
                  Would love to get a recipe somehow...

                  >Predslava,
                  >now armed with her copy of The Text!

                  I believe we have the same edition (Domostroi, eds. V.V. Kolesov and V. V.
                  Rozhdestvenskaia, Sankt-Peterburg, Nauka, 1994), what page did you find the
                  above on? And would you have an explanation of how this book is laid out?
                  I can't get Paul to sit still long enough to look at it for me and I can't
                  tell the difference between the different versions included therein.

                  --Yana
                • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                  In a message dated 10/31/1999 9:04:07 AM Central Standard Time, ... Yep, we have the same text. This edition has the short and the long version of the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 31, 1999
                    In a message dated 10/31/1999 9:04:07 AM Central Standard Time,
                    jdmiller2@... writes:

                    > I believe we have the same edition (Domostroi, eds. V.V. Kolesov and V. V.
                    > Rozhdestvenskaia, Sankt-Peterburg, Nauka, 1994), what page did you find the
                    > above on? And would you have an explanation of how this book is laid out?

                    Yep, we have the same text.

                    This edition has the "short" and the "long" version of the Domostroi, one
                    after the other, first in Old-Russian then in translation (OR, OR, Ru, Ru).
                    This is followed by exerpts from the Izmaragd (lit. "Emerald"), another
                    "educational" text more or less from the same period, but not as interesting
                    for us as the Domostroi. That, in turn, is followed by a translation. Then
                    you have an article about the Domostroi, and then notes to the text (by
                    chapter, first one, then the other version, and the notes are not referenced
                    in the text). Then you have a list of "unfamiliar and archaic kitchen [lit.
                    "table"] terms".

                    The explanation I found is on p. 399.

                    As for "kislye shti", there is no recipe, it does seem to imply it actually
                    has nothing to do with the soup-type shchi, which raises the question why is
                    the same word used in two different contexts? Except that <kvashennyi> means
                    "soured" as in "pickled" (<kvas> -- noun; <kvashennyi> -- adjective).

                    The note adds the "kislye shti" are made from wheat or buckwheat flour and
                    wheat or barley malt.

                    I'll leave redacting and experimenting to you.

                    Predslava
                  • Jenne Heise
                    ... Hm... were you by chance thinking of _Bread and Salt_? Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@tulgey.browser.net Disclaimer: I don t speak for
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
                      On Fri, 29 Oct 1999 MHoll@... wrote:
                      > <vinnyi>, as you suspect, cannot refer to vodka, at least not in period. From
                      > another secondary source (with a good survey of primary sources, etc) I
                      > remember the comment that vodka, and other distilled spirits, did not make
                      > their appearance in Russia before the XVII century, and when it did,
                      > distillation and sale were strictly regulated by the crown (hear: state
                      > monopoly).

                      Hm... were you by chance thinking of _Bread and Salt_?

                      Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                      Disclaimer: I don't speak for Eisental, and nobody in Eisental speaks for me.

                      "But the world is cold. For me, the warm places are few and far between."
                      -- Charles DeLint, _Someplace to Be Flying_
                    • MHoll@xxx.xxx
                      In a message dated 11/1/1999 7:53:41 AM Central Standard Time, ... Yep, and judging from an earlier posting by Yana, I may be a little off on my dates. Still,
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
                        In a message dated 11/1/1999 7:53:41 AM Central Standard Time,
                        jenne@... writes:

                        > Hm... were you by chance thinking of _Bread and Salt_?

                        Yep, and judging from an earlier posting by Yana, I may be a little off on my
                        dates. Still, vodka does not seem to make an appearance as a spirit of choice
                        until the XVII cent. I, for one, can do without. Cordials, one the other
                        hand.....

                        Predslava.
                      • Jenne Heise
                        ... Close enough, though. If I recall _Bread and Salt_ correctly, state control of distilled liquor followed hard on the heels of it s growth in popularity.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 1, 1999
                          On Mon, 1 Nov 1999 MHoll@... wrote:
                          > > Hm... were you by chance thinking of _Bread and Salt_?
                          > Yep, and judging from an earlier posting by Yana, I may be a little off on my
                          > dates. Still, vodka does not seem to make an appearance as a spirit of choice
                          > until the XVII cent. I, for one, can do without. Cordials, one the other
                          > hand.....

                          Close enough, though. If I recall _Bread and Salt_ correctly, state
                          control of distilled liquor followed hard on the heels of it's growth in
                          popularity. However, at the same time, restrictions on when and how much
                          beer (as opposed to kvas) a family could brew seem to have come in.

                          Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne@...
                          Disclaimer: I don't speak for Eisental, and nobody in Eisental speaks for me.

                          "But the world is cold. For me, the warm places are few and far between."
                          -- Charles DeLint, _Someplace to Be Flying_
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