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Re: [sig] Re: Digest Number 1219

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  • Vaclav von Pressburg
    ... This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their transmission. This
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 4 3:37 AM
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      On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 04:31:23PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
      > I guess I may be biased by some of our local Indian cultures, who
      > still use verbal history as part of their tradition. At the age of
      > six, two children are selected to learn one of the eight parts of
      > their "Eagle Song". They practice for 10 years before taking over
      > to perform at ceremonies. Acuracy is paramount. There is no
      > evidence that A SINGLE WORD has changed in 500 years. It will never
      > be written down.

      This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed
      orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their
      transmission. This conservatism in oral performance has been
      claimed to be one of the major contributing factors in hindering
      grammatical and vocabulary changes in Icelandic.

      The sagas themselves, however, were composed decades or generations
      after the events that they describe. From archaeology and written
      records it can be shown that the sagas are as much or more historical
      fiction as history. They describe the way that later generations
      thought their ancestors should have acted.

      --
      Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
      vaclav@...
    • Vaclav von Pressburg
      On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 06:05:30PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote: . . . ... You mean like the original Authorized Version (King James Version) of the bible?
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 4 4:15 AM
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        On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 06:05:30PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
        . . .
        > 2) What if, with age, your growing wisdom puts a different spin on
        > the import of these words?

        You mean like the original Authorized Version (King James' Version)
        of the bible? Where "prevent" means "to come before" and "artificial"
        means "ingenious, skillfully contrived"?

        > I am very much in favor of documentation, when appropriate. I am in
        > favor of Verbal History, when appropriate. What I question is why
        > such history, set to pen in the 15th century is supposed to be more

        Because the person in the 15th century is closer to the events.

        > valid that something put down in the 17th, or 22nd. Everything of
        > importance in this world starts with a person seeing something
        > profound and then sharing it others in a way they can understand.
        > The medium is not as important as the thought. Bedtime stories are
        > a good process.

        But bedtime stories are not facts -- they describe the way that
        people feel about experiences.

        . . .

        > If you are a professor attempting to research some obscure event,
        > then ever collateral thread must be persued. But if you want a
        > three thousand year old recipe for 'Pazar Salat', I'll take FolkLore
        > every time.

        Yes, recipes! In the first half of the twentieth century there was a
        large Slavic immigration to western Pennsylvania. This immigration
        included speakers of various languages Czech, Slovak, the eastern
        dialect of Slovak (this is the dialect with all short vowels and the
        accent on the penult), Carpato-rusk (now called Rusin'),
        Byelo-russian, Ukrainian, Polish. Enough different speakers of
        enough different languages that they even developed a local "common
        Slavic dialect" (which my grandfather referred to as "shchi").

        One of the common Slavic dishes in this area is called "halushki i
        syr". A perfectly good Slovak phrase and I have no doubt that it
        originally referred to a perfectly authentic recipe from the original
        countries. But I'm not sure how many, if any, of the ingredients
        are close to the original. The recipe when I was growing up included
        broad egg noodles and cottage cheese, but neither of these are
        quite the same as anything that was available in "Upper Hungary"
        in the 1890's. I learned to make it from my mother and I was
        surprised to note the differences that I had introduced over the
        passage of some 30 or 40 years. For instance I use olive oil instead
        of butter.

        And again there's the recipe for holupky (stuffed cabbage). My
        mother likes to top off the pot of holupky with a bit of ketchup
        before she starts heating it.

        Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
        show a direct development of these recipes from the European
        originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
        20th century from central Europe.

        --
        Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
        vaclav@...
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 7/4/2003 5:38:25 AM Central Daylight Time, ... You have to understand that accuracy in oral cultures is a concept quite different from what
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 4 7:24 AM
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          In a message dated 7/4/2003 5:38:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
          vaclav@... writes:

          > This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed
          > orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their
          > transmission.

          You have to understand that accuracy in oral cultures is a concept quite
          different from what we understand as accuracy. It is more like the retelling of a
          joke (which is not word-for-word and yet is exactly the same joke) rather than
          the recitation of a poem by Frost.

          Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
          by A. Lord.

          Predslava.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alexey Kiyaikin
          Greetings Waclaw! Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote: VvP Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably) VvP show a direct
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 6 11:06 AM
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            Greetings Waclaw!

            Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote:

            VvP> Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
            VvP> show a direct development of these recipes from the European
            VvP> originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
            VvP> 20th century from central Europe.

            Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
            do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
            false? What immigrants changed THEM?


            --
            Bye,
            Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
          • Alexey Kiyaikin
            Greetings Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote: Mac Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES Mac by A. Lord. I Am
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 6 11:13 AM
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              Greetings

              Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote:



              Mac> Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
              Mac> by A. Lord.

              I Am interested. I AM involved. Please do the job usually required at
              Laurel events for literature that can't be obtained & understood by
              others (e.g. when there's a language barrier). In my case I can't get
              the book even if it's in Russia. Lenin library's sources are blocked
              mainly. Please do the citing if you really need my reaction to your
              argument. I need not "get what you must know because we do" but the
              correct idea you are referring to for the third time. I doubt I'm the
              only one in this position here.



              --
              Bye,
              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
            • jennifer knox
              well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 8 1:42 AM
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                well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
                anya


                Vaclav von Pressburg <vaclav@...> wrote:

                One of the common Slavic dishes in this area is called "halushki i
                syr". A perfectly good Slovak phrase and I have no doubt that it
                originally referred to a perfectly authentic recipe from the original
                countries. But I'm not sure how many, if any, of the ingredients
                are close to the original. The recipe when I was growing up included
                broad egg noodles and cottage cheese, but neither of these are
                quite the same as anything that was available in "Upper Hungary"
                in the 1890's.

                "Speak softly and carry a big stick" -- Teddy Roosevelt

                ---------------------------------
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                SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Julie
                In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The halusky are
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 8 2:49 PM
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                  In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                  onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
                  halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
                  water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
                  water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
                  bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
                  your stomach will thank you.

                  Margita


                  At 01:42 AM 7/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                  >well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                  >any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour,
                  >with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage
                  >cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used.
                  >halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else
                  >on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or
                  >halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is
                  >definately a blending of recipes
                  >anya
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >90e89db.jpg
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eclipsek@telusplanet.net
                  This reminds me of a dish I ve seen up here. (A strongly Ukrainian area of Alberta.) Little bread things (about thumb size) they might be boiled & then fried
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 8 4:39 PM
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                    This reminds me of a dish I've seen up here. (A strongly Ukrainian area of
                    Alberta.)

                    Little bread things (about thumb size) they might be boiled & then fried or
                    perhaps baked (they occasionally have a locally made dry ?cottage? cheese, in
                    the center) - they are golden brown.
                    They are served with a cream dill sauce.
                    They have become one of my favorite foods.

                    -Kataryna
                  • Jose Alire
                    Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it Julie wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 8 8:24 PM
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                      Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it

                      Julie <garden@...> wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                      onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
                      halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
                      water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
                      water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
                      bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
                      your stomach will thank you.

                      Margita
                    • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
                      Greetings! ... Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 9 12:40 AM
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                        Greetings!
                        >
                        > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
                        >
                        >
                        Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The Russian analog, Klyotski, is also not typically Russian, but can't remembver where it was borrowed. Seems like Finnish couisine but am not sure without literature (I forgot when I last answered anything from home computer, and of course no literature at work)


                        Bye,
                        Alex
                      • jennifer knox
                        hi! interesting. would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 9 8:54 AM
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                          hi! interesting.
                          would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                          anya


                          Julie <garden@...> wrote:
                          In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                          onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds.
                          [snipped by moderator]
                        • jennifer knox
                          then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe? anya Alexey
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 9 8:58 AM
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                            then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe?
                            anya

                            "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...> wrote:

                            Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine.
                            [snipped by moderator]
                          • Julie
                            Yes, please! I m sure they re good, even if they take only a few hours to prepare ; ) J ... [snipped by moderator. Don t include posts that *other* people
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 9 2:15 PM
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                              Yes, please! I'm sure they're good, even if they take only a few hours to
                              prepare ; )

                              J


                              At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                              >hi! interesting.
                              >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                              >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                              >anya

                              [snipped by moderator. Don't include posts that *other* people have replied to.]
                            • Jeanne
                              Yes, I d be very interested in them also! Soffya Appollonia Tudja http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 9 2:38 PM
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                                Yes, I'd be very interested in them also!

                                Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                                http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                                Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                                three fleur-de-lys Or



                                At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                >hi! interesting.
                                >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                                >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                                >anya


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Vaclav von Pressburg
                                On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote: . . . ... It s not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the availability of new
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 10 3:41 AM
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                                  On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:
                                  . . .
                                  > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                                  > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                                  > false? What immigrants changed THEM?

                                  It's not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the
                                  availability of new ingredients. These recipes are preserved and
                                  passed on because they are loved. They become changed because they
                                  are subject to the creative tendencies of the various generations of
                                  cooks who learned them by imitating their parents.

                                  "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed because of entropy.

                                  I have a small book that I picked up in college that I was looking
                                  at several months ago (and of course I can't find it right now).
                                  It was published in Moscow in the 1950's and the title is approximately
                                  "Exercises in Historical Russian Grammar" (cost 50 kopeks!) When
                                  I bought it I was only interested in historical desinences, but I
                                  recently wanted to look at what the author had to say about the
                                  development of phonology. In the section where the author talks
                                  about the Common Slavic *v in Russian, he says that this was
                                  pronounced as a semi-vowel (like the English "w"), which he writes
                                  as a Cyrillic "u" (looks like Roman "y") with a breve over it. He
                                  gives the various developments in the different Eastern Slavic
                                  languages and points out one Russian oblast where he says that "at
                                  the current time" all "v", both initial and final, are pronounced
                                  as "w".

                                  Does such a dialect still exist after all these years of unified
                                  national school curriculum? If it does, what does that imply about the
                                  extent of this characteristic in the mostly unreported dialects of
                                  150 or 200 years ago?

                                  What is not written will change. What is written might be wrong, but
                                  it can be preserved as a witness of someone's observations at the
                                  time that it was written.

                                  --
                                  Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                                  vaclav@...
                                • Vaclav von Pressburg
                                  ... This sounds wonderful! -- Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos vaclav@bermls.oau.org
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 10 3:42 AM
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                                    On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:54:10AM -0700, jennifer knox wrote:
                                    > hi! interesting.
                                    > would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however

                                    This sounds wonderful!

                                    --
                                    Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                                    vaclav@...
                                  • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                    ... Not false . Just not period documentation . Whether you like it or not, whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over time,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 10 5:52 AM
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                                      > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                                      > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                                      > false? What immigrants changed THEM?
                                      >

                                      Not 'false'. Just not 'period documentation'. Whether you like it or not,
                                      whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over
                                      time, and the stories they tell over time get subtly shifted. I know you
                                      would like to believe that all Russian cultural artifacts, including
                                      folklore, was preserved precious and unchanged, but social scientists have
                                      shown, in areas where we do have documentation to compare to folklore,
                                      that it doesn't work that way.



                                      -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                      "If one by one we counted people out
                                      For the least sin, it wouldn't take us long
                                      To get so that we had no one left to live with.
                                      For to be social is to be forgiving. " -- Robert Frost, "The Star-Splitter"
                                    • shannon anderson
                                      I don t know if anyone has seen them, but I found these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 10 9:01 AM
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                                        I don't know if anyone has seen them, but I found
                                        these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress
                                        website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                                        after someone's estate was settled. They are pictures
                                        of russia taken with various color filters and them
                                        layered to make it look like they are color photos, in
                                        the pre-color-photo era.

                                        Check it out...
                                        http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/
                                        > "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed
                                        > because of entropy.
                                        I would LOVE to see the math for this!! ;)

                                        this email brought to you by entropy,

                                        Margarita


                                        =====
                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                        "What saves man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it."
                                        -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                        Shannon Anderson
                                        kitonlove@...

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                                      • Lente
                                        Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of ricotta
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 10 9:13 AM
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                                          Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know
                                          that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of
                                          ricotta cheese. why? Mostly a cost issue but also it use to be very hard to
                                          find ricotta cheese in the grocery stores here in the US. Quite possibly the
                                          same change happened because it was hard to find the bryndza (or any other
                                          soft sheep cheese) here in the US.

                                          Just a thought on how substitutions can happen.
                                          Kathws

                                          Alex sent on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:40 AM:> Greetings!
                                          > >
                                          > > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                                          any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with
                                          bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt
                                          used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can
                                          also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like
                                          chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr)
                                          would have been what i described. what you described is definately a
                                          blending of recipes
                                        • Alex Grant [T]
                                          A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one time. Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 10 6:08 PM
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                                            A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one
                                            time.
                                            Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.


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