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Re: [sig] Slavic oral tradition (was Folklore)

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  • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
    Greetings Alastair and Kinjal! ... (....) ... Alastair, I must have got the meaning of Kinjal s message. He meant that while no written tradition existed, the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 1, 2003
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      Greetings Alastair and Kinjal!

      >
      > > It is sad if slavic heritage does not have suach a
      > > tradition or ability.

      (....)

      >
      > That the oral tradition has not survived the subsequent 900 years is
      > sad indeed - but that doesn't mean it never existed.
      >


      Alastair, I must have got the meaning of Kinjal's message. He meant that while no written tradition existed, the ability to _preserve_intact_ the said word was much more powerful. No scholar really disbelieved that it was the very way Bylinas, myths etc passed from performer to performer. Ethnographers noted such extra abilities of perception with Australian aboriginies, etc. It's an ethnographic fact as well. If there're any ethnographers here they may remember the source, the names, etc. I read it rather long before, in a book on psychology.

      So, Kinjal, am I right about your meaning?

      And, there is no obstacle to pass the text/idea/recipe/what not through ages. Predslava's point that myths are polyvariantal, does not contradict that. As all the variety of variants was detected with societies where 1) oral tradition was much influenced by the written one, so there wass no need to remember long sagas by heart already (not for a single person but for the whole strata of professional memory-keepers), 2)religious tradition that supported those keepers a lot (afair, even in Middle Ages the Biblical texts were the only ones that had to be copied literally letter-by-letter)ceased or disappeared by the time, and closer to 19-20 centuries epos/myth reciters were more tempted to make the stuff "more understandable and entertainable". Afair the same happened to the Greek myths of which we know only the poetic transformations of them by certain poets of Pericles's age or later, not the original ones recited through the Dark Ages.

      bye,
      Alex
    • Vaclav von Pressburg
      ... This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their transmission. This
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 4, 2003
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        On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 04:31:23PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
        > I guess I may be biased by some of our local Indian cultures, who
        > still use verbal history as part of their tradition. At the age of
        > six, two children are selected to learn one of the eight parts of
        > their "Eagle Song". They practice for 10 years before taking over
        > to perform at ceremonies. Acuracy is paramount. There is no
        > evidence that A SINGLE WORD has changed in 500 years. It will never
        > be written down.

        This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed
        orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their
        transmission. This conservatism in oral performance has been
        claimed to be one of the major contributing factors in hindering
        grammatical and vocabulary changes in Icelandic.

        The sagas themselves, however, were composed decades or generations
        after the events that they describe. From archaeology and written
        records it can be shown that the sagas are as much or more historical
        fiction as history. They describe the way that later generations
        thought their ancestors should have acted.

        --
        Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
        vaclav@...
      • Vaclav von Pressburg
        On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 06:05:30PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote: . . . ... You mean like the original Authorized Version (King James Version) of the bible?
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 4, 2003
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          On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 06:05:30PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
          . . .
          > 2) What if, with age, your growing wisdom puts a different spin on
          > the import of these words?

          You mean like the original Authorized Version (King James' Version)
          of the bible? Where "prevent" means "to come before" and "artificial"
          means "ingenious, skillfully contrived"?

          > I am very much in favor of documentation, when appropriate. I am in
          > favor of Verbal History, when appropriate. What I question is why
          > such history, set to pen in the 15th century is supposed to be more

          Because the person in the 15th century is closer to the events.

          > valid that something put down in the 17th, or 22nd. Everything of
          > importance in this world starts with a person seeing something
          > profound and then sharing it others in a way they can understand.
          > The medium is not as important as the thought. Bedtime stories are
          > a good process.

          But bedtime stories are not facts -- they describe the way that
          people feel about experiences.

          . . .

          > If you are a professor attempting to research some obscure event,
          > then ever collateral thread must be persued. But if you want a
          > three thousand year old recipe for 'Pazar Salat', I'll take FolkLore
          > every time.

          Yes, recipes! In the first half of the twentieth century there was a
          large Slavic immigration to western Pennsylvania. This immigration
          included speakers of various languages Czech, Slovak, the eastern
          dialect of Slovak (this is the dialect with all short vowels and the
          accent on the penult), Carpato-rusk (now called Rusin'),
          Byelo-russian, Ukrainian, Polish. Enough different speakers of
          enough different languages that they even developed a local "common
          Slavic dialect" (which my grandfather referred to as "shchi").

          One of the common Slavic dishes in this area is called "halushki i
          syr". A perfectly good Slovak phrase and I have no doubt that it
          originally referred to a perfectly authentic recipe from the original
          countries. But I'm not sure how many, if any, of the ingredients
          are close to the original. The recipe when I was growing up included
          broad egg noodles and cottage cheese, but neither of these are
          quite the same as anything that was available in "Upper Hungary"
          in the 1890's. I learned to make it from my mother and I was
          surprised to note the differences that I had introduced over the
          passage of some 30 or 40 years. For instance I use olive oil instead
          of butter.

          And again there's the recipe for holupky (stuffed cabbage). My
          mother likes to top off the pot of holupky with a bit of ketchup
          before she starts heating it.

          Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
          show a direct development of these recipes from the European
          originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
          20th century from central Europe.

          --
          Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
          vaclav@...
        • MHoll@aol.com
          In a message dated 7/4/2003 5:38:25 AM Central Daylight Time, ... You have to understand that accuracy in oral cultures is a concept quite different from what
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 4, 2003
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            In a message dated 7/4/2003 5:38:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
            vaclav@... writes:

            > This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed
            > orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their
            > transmission.

            You have to understand that accuracy in oral cultures is a concept quite
            different from what we understand as accuracy. It is more like the retelling of a
            joke (which is not word-for-word and yet is exactly the same joke) rather than
            the recitation of a poem by Frost.

            Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
            by A. Lord.

            Predslava.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Alexey Kiyaikin
            Greetings Waclaw! Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote: VvP Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably) VvP show a direct
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
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              Greetings Waclaw!

              Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote:

              VvP> Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
              VvP> show a direct development of these recipes from the European
              VvP> originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
              VvP> 20th century from central Europe.

              Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
              do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
              false? What immigrants changed THEM?


              --
              Bye,
              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
            • Alexey Kiyaikin
              Greetings Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote: Mac Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES Mac by A. Lord. I Am
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
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                Greetings

                Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote:



                Mac> Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
                Mac> by A. Lord.

                I Am interested. I AM involved. Please do the job usually required at
                Laurel events for literature that can't be obtained & understood by
                others (e.g. when there's a language barrier). In my case I can't get
                the book even if it's in Russia. Lenin library's sources are blocked
                mainly. Please do the citing if you really need my reaction to your
                argument. I need not "get what you must know because we do" but the
                correct idea you are referring to for the third time. I doubt I'm the
                only one in this position here.



                --
                Bye,
                Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
              • jennifer knox
                well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
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                  well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
                  anya


                  Vaclav von Pressburg <vaclav@...> wrote:

                  One of the common Slavic dishes in this area is called "halushki i
                  syr". A perfectly good Slovak phrase and I have no doubt that it
                  originally referred to a perfectly authentic recipe from the original
                  countries. But I'm not sure how many, if any, of the ingredients
                  are close to the original. The recipe when I was growing up included
                  broad egg noodles and cottage cheese, but neither of these are
                  quite the same as anything that was available in "Upper Hungary"
                  in the 1890's.

                  "Speak softly and carry a big stick" -- Teddy Roosevelt

                  ---------------------------------
                  Do you Yahoo!?
                  SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Julie
                  In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The halusky are
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
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                    In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                    onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
                    halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
                    water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
                    water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
                    bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
                    your stomach will thank you.

                    Margita


                    At 01:42 AM 7/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                    >well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                    >any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour,
                    >with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage
                    >cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used.
                    >halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else
                    >on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or
                    >halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is
                    >definately a blending of recipes
                    >anya
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >90e89db.jpg
                    >
                    >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                    ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eclipsek@telusplanet.net
                    This reminds me of a dish I ve seen up here. (A strongly Ukrainian area of Alberta.) Little bread things (about thumb size) they might be boiled & then fried
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
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                      This reminds me of a dish I've seen up here. (A strongly Ukrainian area of
                      Alberta.)

                      Little bread things (about thumb size) they might be boiled & then fried or
                      perhaps baked (they occasionally have a locally made dry ?cottage? cheese, in
                      the center) - they are golden brown.
                      They are served with a cream dill sauce.
                      They have become one of my favorite foods.

                      -Kataryna
                    • Jose Alire
                      Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it Julie wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
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                        Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it

                        Julie <garden@...> wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                        onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
                        halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
                        water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
                        water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
                        bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
                        your stomach will thank you.

                        Margita
                      • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
                        Greetings! ... Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                          Greetings!
                          >
                          > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
                          >
                          >
                          Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The Russian analog, Klyotski, is also not typically Russian, but can't remembver where it was borrowed. Seems like Finnish couisine but am not sure without literature (I forgot when I last answered anything from home computer, and of course no literature at work)


                          Bye,
                          Alex
                        • jennifer knox
                          hi! interesting. would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                            hi! interesting.
                            would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                            anya


                            Julie <garden@...> wrote:
                            In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                            onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds.
                            [snipped by moderator]
                          • jennifer knox
                            then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe? anya Alexey
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                              then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe?
                              anya

                              "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...> wrote:

                              Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine.
                              [snipped by moderator]
                            • Julie
                              Yes, please! I m sure they re good, even if they take only a few hours to prepare ; ) J ... [snipped by moderator. Don t include posts that *other* people
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                                Yes, please! I'm sure they're good, even if they take only a few hours to
                                prepare ; )

                                J


                                At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                >hi! interesting.
                                >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                                >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                                >anya

                                [snipped by moderator. Don't include posts that *other* people have replied to.]
                              • Jeanne
                                Yes, I d be very interested in them also! Soffya Appollonia Tudja http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
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                                  Yes, I'd be very interested in them also!

                                  Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                                  http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                                  Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                                  three fleur-de-lys Or



                                  At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                  >hi! interesting.
                                  >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                                  >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                                  >anya


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Vaclav von Pressburg
                                  On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote: . . . ... It s not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the availability of new
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                    On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:
                                    . . .
                                    > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                                    > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                                    > false? What immigrants changed THEM?

                                    It's not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the
                                    availability of new ingredients. These recipes are preserved and
                                    passed on because they are loved. They become changed because they
                                    are subject to the creative tendencies of the various generations of
                                    cooks who learned them by imitating their parents.

                                    "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed because of entropy.

                                    I have a small book that I picked up in college that I was looking
                                    at several months ago (and of course I can't find it right now).
                                    It was published in Moscow in the 1950's and the title is approximately
                                    "Exercises in Historical Russian Grammar" (cost 50 kopeks!) When
                                    I bought it I was only interested in historical desinences, but I
                                    recently wanted to look at what the author had to say about the
                                    development of phonology. In the section where the author talks
                                    about the Common Slavic *v in Russian, he says that this was
                                    pronounced as a semi-vowel (like the English "w"), which he writes
                                    as a Cyrillic "u" (looks like Roman "y") with a breve over it. He
                                    gives the various developments in the different Eastern Slavic
                                    languages and points out one Russian oblast where he says that "at
                                    the current time" all "v", both initial and final, are pronounced
                                    as "w".

                                    Does such a dialect still exist after all these years of unified
                                    national school curriculum? If it does, what does that imply about the
                                    extent of this characteristic in the mostly unreported dialects of
                                    150 or 200 years ago?

                                    What is not written will change. What is written might be wrong, but
                                    it can be preserved as a witness of someone's observations at the
                                    time that it was written.

                                    --
                                    Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                                    vaclav@...
                                  • Vaclav von Pressburg
                                    ... This sounds wonderful! -- Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos vaclav@bermls.oau.org
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                      On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:54:10AM -0700, jennifer knox wrote:
                                      > hi! interesting.
                                      > would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however

                                      This sounds wonderful!

                                      --
                                      Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                                      vaclav@...
                                    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                      ... Not false . Just not period documentation . Whether you like it or not, whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over time,
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                        > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                                        > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                                        > false? What immigrants changed THEM?
                                        >

                                        Not 'false'. Just not 'period documentation'. Whether you like it or not,
                                        whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over
                                        time, and the stories they tell over time get subtly shifted. I know you
                                        would like to believe that all Russian cultural artifacts, including
                                        folklore, was preserved precious and unchanged, but social scientists have
                                        shown, in areas where we do have documentation to compare to folklore,
                                        that it doesn't work that way.



                                        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                        "If one by one we counted people out
                                        For the least sin, it wouldn't take us long
                                        To get so that we had no one left to live with.
                                        For to be social is to be forgiving. " -- Robert Frost, "The Star-Splitter"
                                      • shannon anderson
                                        I don t know if anyone has seen them, but I found these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                          I don't know if anyone has seen them, but I found
                                          these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress
                                          website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                                          after someone's estate was settled. They are pictures
                                          of russia taken with various color filters and them
                                          layered to make it look like they are color photos, in
                                          the pre-color-photo era.

                                          Check it out...
                                          http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/
                                          > "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed
                                          > because of entropy.
                                          I would LOVE to see the math for this!! ;)

                                          this email brought to you by entropy,

                                          Margarita


                                          =====
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          "What saves man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it."
                                          -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          Shannon Anderson
                                          kitonlove@...

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                                        • Lente
                                          Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of ricotta
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                            Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know
                                            that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of
                                            ricotta cheese. why? Mostly a cost issue but also it use to be very hard to
                                            find ricotta cheese in the grocery stores here in the US. Quite possibly the
                                            same change happened because it was hard to find the bryndza (or any other
                                            soft sheep cheese) here in the US.

                                            Just a thought on how substitutions can happen.
                                            Kathws

                                            Alex sent on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:40 AM:> Greetings!
                                            > >
                                            > > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                                            any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with
                                            bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt
                                            used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can
                                            also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like
                                            chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr)
                                            would have been what i described. what you described is definately a
                                            blending of recipes
                                          • Alex Grant [T]
                                            A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one time. Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
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                                              A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one
                                              time.
                                              Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.


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