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Re: [sig] Digest Number 1219

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  • Alastair Millar
    Kinjal wrote... ... The problem is that oral history changes with each generation. Each bard/reciter, on learning the text, begins to weave their own
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 29, 2003
      Kinjal wrote...
      > I question the attitude that Folk Lore and verbal history
      > is not a valid source. [snip]

      The problem is that oral history changes with each generation. Each
      bard/reciter, on learning the text, begins to weave their own prejudices
      and ideas into the story, changing wording to make it more easily memorable
      (to themselves), and probably more concerned with effect than with accuracy
      (in the same way as, for example, numbers seem to be have been treated by
      many medieval chroniclers, particularly as regards casualty figures from
      wars, plagues etc.).

      Therefore, oral history will contain a mix of facts, inaccuracies and
      poetic license - with the facts almost certainly in the minority a few
      generations after the event. It is no easy task to separate the three
      categories, and assuredly cannot be done without further supporting
      evidence of some sort (archaeological, historical).

      A further problem is that once things finally get written down, they become
      frozen... but the frozen mass includes all the aforementioned inaccuracies
      and poetic license. This doesn't stop people from then assuming that
      BECAUSE it's written, it must be true. A classic case comes with the
      Czechs' myth of their own arrival and early history in what is now
      Bohemia; the names of the earliest rulers are *clearly* allegorical, yet
      even today they are taken literally (dare I say "as gospel"?).

      As Predslava says:
      >It will tell you what a person THINKS or BELIEVES was done
      >in the past, but not what was actually done in the past

      Cheers

      Alastair
    • Kinjal of Moravia
      [Edited by moderator. There is no reason to quote an entire post.] I guess I may be biased by some of our local Indian cultures, who still use verbal history
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 29, 2003
        [Edited by moderator. There is no reason to quote an entire post.]


        I guess I may be biased by some of our local Indian cultures, who
        still use verbal history as part of their tradition. At the age of
        six, two children are selected to learn one of the eight parts of
        their "Eagle Song". They practice for 10 years before taking over
        to perform at ceremonies. Acuracy is paramount. There is no
        evidence that A SINGLE WORD has changed in 500 years. It will never
        be written down.

        Kinjal
      • alastairmillar
        ... But equally, then, there is therefore no evidence to prove that nothing has changed for over 500 years! Questions: (1) If nothing has been written down,
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 30, 2003
          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia" <gusarimagic@r...>
          wrote:

          > There is no evidence that A SINGLE WORD has
          > changed in 500 years. It will never be
          > written down.

          But equally, then, there is therefore no evidence to prove that
          nothing has changed for over 500 years!

          Questions:

          (1) If nothing has been written down, how do you *know* that the
          tradition is 500 years old and not (say) 400? Or 300? Or less? I
          would guess because the tribal tradition itself says so... which
          means that the age is effectively being taken on trust. (Ultimately
          the fundamental issue here is that faith is *by definition* belief
          without proof...). This is a key question, because it affects the
          interpretation of (direct or indirect) historical events in whatever
          oral source one happens to be considering.

          (2) By way of making a point, what if war or disease (or, these days,
          economic forces...) at some point carried off the only people trained
          in one of the eight parts? Surely those left behind would try to
          reconstruct it... but how would one *know* that they were word
          perfect as well? They surely wouldn't have had the same 10-year
          training - so inaccuracies/changes *might* have crept in. Where is
          your proof that this never happened?

          Just some food for thought!

          Alastair
        • Kinjal of Moravia
          ... days, ... trained ... No , my friend, they will not reconstruct. They believe that if the chain is broken their future will die. The eagle will crash too
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 30, 2003
            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "alastairmillar" <alastair@i...> wrote:
            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia" <gusarimagic@r...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > > There is no evidence that A SINGLE WORD has
            > > changed in 500 years. It will never be
            > > written down.
            >
            > But equally, then, there is therefore no evidence to prove that
            > nothing has changed for over 500 years!
            >
            > > (2) By way of making a point, what if war or disease (or, these
            days,
            > economic forces...) at some point carried off the only people
            trained
            > in one of the eight parts? Surely those left behind would try to
            > reconstruct it... but how would one *know* that they were word
            > perfect as well? They surely wouldn't have had the same 10-year
            > training - so inaccuracies/changes *might* have crept in. Where is
            > your proof that this never happened?
            >
            > ............................................

            No , my friend, they will not reconstruct. They believe that if the
            chain is broken their future will die. The eagle will crash too the
            earth -- held aloft only by their faith and dreams.

            what if ..

            1) What if, while reading your sacred 'written documentation' the
            meaning of a word changes for you, corrupted perhaps by pulp fiction
            or TV?

            2) What if, with age, your growing wisdom puts a different spin on
            the import of these words?

            I am very much in favor of documentation, when appropriate. I am in
            favor of Verbal History, when appropriate. What I question is why
            such history, set to pen in the 15th century is supposed to be more
            valid that something put down in the 17th, or 22nd. Everything of
            importance in this world starts with a person seeing something
            profound and then sharing it others in a way they can understand.
            The medium is not as important as the thought. Bedtime stories are
            a good process.

            I am sorry you do not have good 'old people' experiences. At a party
            years ago, my daughter presented a memorized poem she was going to
            use in a colligiate competition. My 92 year old grandfather sharer
            how, as children, every Sunday afternoon was set aside for
            presentations of skits, songs, and verse. He then recited "Horatio
            at the Bridge", from memory without missing a beat. It is sad if
            slavic heritage does not have suach a tradition or ability. OLd age
            memory may become erratic and confused, it doesn't make it 'untrue'
            or 'imperfect'.

            If you are a professor attempting to research some obscure event,
            then ever collateral thread must be persued. But if you want a
            three thousand year old recipe for 'Pazar Salat', I'll take FolkLore
            every time.

            Kinjal
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/30/2003 1:15:25 PM Central Daylight Time, ... Before this degenerates into another flame war and I slip off my academic chair and onto my
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 30, 2003
              In a message dated 6/30/2003 1:15:25 PM Central Daylight Time,
              gusarimagic@... writes:

              > It is sad if
              > slavic heritage does not have suach a tradition or ability.

              Before this degenerates into another flame war and I slip off my academic
              chair and onto my Slavic soapbox, I'll try to infuse a little academic
              rationality here.

              Please do not compare the value of traditions. If you wish to compare how
              things are done in one place and in another, that is fine, that is what
              folklorists and anthropologists do. But when someone starts assigning values to
              traditions and estimating some of them higher than others, then they leave respect
              behind and fall into the trap of intolerance.

              Slavic oral tradition is different from what you've described. You cannot
              assign values that are familiar to you from your own culture to another. What is
              interesting and curious about Slavic tradition, and Western tradition, and for
              that matter, Indo-European tradition as a whole, is the existence of
              variants. For a detailed explanation of what that is, I'll refer to you to Albert
              Lord's THE SINGER OF TALES. He does it better than I could in a short posting.

              We're talking about different traditions. We're here to study Slavic
              traditions. Trust those who have spent years, decades, doing so.

              Predslava.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • alastairmillar
              ... Well again, that s a matter of faith rather than proof ;-) ... Oh but it does - the history of Bible translations into English is stuffed full of examples
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 30, 2003
                --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia" <gusarimagic@r...>
                wrote:

                > No , my friend, they will not reconstruct. [snip]
                Well again, that's a matter of faith rather than proof ;-)

                > 1) What if, while reading your sacred 'written
                > documentation' the meaning of a word changes for you [snip]

                Oh but it does - the history of Bible translations into English is
                stuffed full of examples of words misunderstood, and the Revised
                Standard came into being *exactly* because changing meanings had
                caused the previous translations to lose relevance. However... the
                same thing can happen with oral history. (Examples: it's a favourite
                Homerian metaphor, but just what IS a "wine-dark sea"?)

                > 2) What if, with age, your growing wisdom puts a
                > different spin on the import of these words?

                Same point - this also applies to the audiences of spoken works.

                > What I question is why such history, set to pen in the
                > 15th century is supposed to be more valid that something
                > put down in the 17th, or 22nd.

                But it isn't. It is an old truism that ALL history contains the
                (conscious or unconscious) biases of its writer(s). A writer will
                always be affected by the world around him, in exactly the ways you
                have described. Therefore, a history will always contain its authors'
                biases. This applies even to a list of dates & events with no
                commentary - the very selection of events is determined by what the
                *recorder* believes to have been important - with the benefit of a
                few centuries of hindsight, we might today feel that other events
                were equally if not more important. Examples: Arthur or even the
                historically attestable and gloriously named Eric Bloodaxe (last
                independent ruler of Northumbria) in the English chronicles.

                > I am sorry you do not have good 'old people'
                > experiences. [snip]

                Not sure where that comes from, as I never referred to old people.

                > OLd age memory may become erratic and confused, it
                > doesn't make it 'untrue' or 'imperfect'.

                But from personal experience I can tell you that someone listeing to
                these erratic and confused memories may take them as being completely
                true, thereby preserving a 'memory' of events which did not happen,
                or which did not happen in the order or at the time described...
                family historians and genealogists run into this problem frequently!

                > If you are a professor attempting to research some obscure
                > event, then ever collateral thread must be persued. But
                > if you want a three thousand year old recipe for 'Pazar
                > Salat', I'll take FolkLore every time.

                Well that's up to you of course... but you asked about why folklore
                is not accepted as being as solid a form of evidence, and I've just
                tried to give some examples of the reasons for this ;-)

                Cheers!

                Alastair
              • alastairmillar
                ... I d go with Predslava on this one and note the vastly different history/culture of the Slavs, which has of course affected what has survived down to
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 30, 2003
                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Kinjal of Moravia" <gusarimagic@r...>
                  wrote:

                  > It is sad if slavic heritage does not have suach a
                  > tradition or ability.

                  I'd go with Predslava on this one and note the vastly different
                  history/culture of the Slavs, which has of course affected what has
                  survived down to today... consider for example that in Bohemia and
                  Moravia the Slavic languages were suppressed to the extent that Karl
                  Marx himself thought Czech would be a dead language within a century
                  of his own lifetime.

                  That said, we CAN show that there WAS a Slavic oral tradition:

                  I remember hearing (a LONG time ago) of the Serbian oral tradition,
                  which had survived into the early 20th century in places, and which
                  exclusively concerned the period of the Crusades. No references I'm
                  afraid, perhaps someone else on the list can provide some?

                  In Bohemia and Moravia, meanwhile, the Slavs knew no writing until
                  the 10th century and Christianisation. Czech written tradition failed
                  to preseve the myth of the first king, Muz'ik (son of Muz' = Man),
                  but this DOES survive in sources of the 9th century (Geographus
                  Bavarus) and the 10th century (al-Masoodi) elsewhere. This is a
                  Slavic variant of the Indo-European creation myth (Muz' can be
                  identified with the Indo-European Man), and since there was no
                  writing, the story MUST have survived in the oral tradition.

                  Kosmas (d.1125) recorded the myth of the arrival of the Czechs in
                  Bohemia, which he evidently didn't just make up - Constantine
                  Porphyrygenitos' "De administrando imperio" contains an almost exact
                  parallel from Croatia. Again, this MUST have been handed down by oral
                  tradition - for a good part of the 500 intervening years.

                  That the oral tradition has not survived the subsequent 900 years is
                  sad indeed - but that doesn't mean it never existed.

                  Cheers!

                  Alastair
                • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
                  Greetings Alastair and Kinjal! ... (....) ... Alastair, I must have got the meaning of Kinjal s message. He meant that while no written tradition existed, the
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 1, 2003
                    Greetings Alastair and Kinjal!

                    >
                    > > It is sad if slavic heritage does not have suach a
                    > > tradition or ability.

                    (....)

                    >
                    > That the oral tradition has not survived the subsequent 900 years is
                    > sad indeed - but that doesn't mean it never existed.
                    >


                    Alastair, I must have got the meaning of Kinjal's message. He meant that while no written tradition existed, the ability to _preserve_intact_ the said word was much more powerful. No scholar really disbelieved that it was the very way Bylinas, myths etc passed from performer to performer. Ethnographers noted such extra abilities of perception with Australian aboriginies, etc. It's an ethnographic fact as well. If there're any ethnographers here they may remember the source, the names, etc. I read it rather long before, in a book on psychology.

                    So, Kinjal, am I right about your meaning?

                    And, there is no obstacle to pass the text/idea/recipe/what not through ages. Predslava's point that myths are polyvariantal, does not contradict that. As all the variety of variants was detected with societies where 1) oral tradition was much influenced by the written one, so there wass no need to remember long sagas by heart already (not for a single person but for the whole strata of professional memory-keepers), 2)religious tradition that supported those keepers a lot (afair, even in Middle Ages the Biblical texts were the only ones that had to be copied literally letter-by-letter)ceased or disappeared by the time, and closer to 19-20 centuries epos/myth reciters were more tempted to make the stuff "more understandable and entertainable". Afair the same happened to the Greek myths of which we know only the poetic transformations of them by certain poets of Pericles's age or later, not the original ones recited through the Dark Ages.

                    bye,
                    Alex
                  • Vaclav von Pressburg
                    ... This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their transmission. This
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 4, 2003
                      On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 04:31:23PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
                      > I guess I may be biased by some of our local Indian cultures, who
                      > still use verbal history as part of their tradition. At the age of
                      > six, two children are selected to learn one of the eight parts of
                      > their "Eagle Song". They practice for 10 years before taking over
                      > to perform at ceremonies. Acuracy is paramount. There is no
                      > evidence that A SINGLE WORD has changed in 500 years. It will never
                      > be written down.

                      This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed
                      orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their
                      transmission. This conservatism in oral performance has been
                      claimed to be one of the major contributing factors in hindering
                      grammatical and vocabulary changes in Icelandic.

                      The sagas themselves, however, were composed decades or generations
                      after the events that they describe. From archaeology and written
                      records it can be shown that the sagas are as much or more historical
                      fiction as history. They describe the way that later generations
                      thought their ancestors should have acted.

                      --
                      Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                      vaclav@...
                    • Vaclav von Pressburg
                      On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 06:05:30PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote: . . . ... You mean like the original Authorized Version (King James Version) of the bible?
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 4, 2003
                        On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 06:05:30PM -0000, Kinjal of Moravia wrote:
                        . . .
                        > 2) What if, with age, your growing wisdom puts a different spin on
                        > the import of these words?

                        You mean like the original Authorized Version (King James' Version)
                        of the bible? Where "prevent" means "to come before" and "artificial"
                        means "ingenious, skillfully contrived"?

                        > I am very much in favor of documentation, when appropriate. I am in
                        > favor of Verbal History, when appropriate. What I question is why
                        > such history, set to pen in the 15th century is supposed to be more

                        Because the person in the 15th century is closer to the events.

                        > valid that something put down in the 17th, or 22nd. Everything of
                        > importance in this world starts with a person seeing something
                        > profound and then sharing it others in a way they can understand.
                        > The medium is not as important as the thought. Bedtime stories are
                        > a good process.

                        But bedtime stories are not facts -- they describe the way that
                        people feel about experiences.

                        . . .

                        > If you are a professor attempting to research some obscure event,
                        > then ever collateral thread must be persued. But if you want a
                        > three thousand year old recipe for 'Pazar Salat', I'll take FolkLore
                        > every time.

                        Yes, recipes! In the first half of the twentieth century there was a
                        large Slavic immigration to western Pennsylvania. This immigration
                        included speakers of various languages Czech, Slovak, the eastern
                        dialect of Slovak (this is the dialect with all short vowels and the
                        accent on the penult), Carpato-rusk (now called Rusin'),
                        Byelo-russian, Ukrainian, Polish. Enough different speakers of
                        enough different languages that they even developed a local "common
                        Slavic dialect" (which my grandfather referred to as "shchi").

                        One of the common Slavic dishes in this area is called "halushki i
                        syr". A perfectly good Slovak phrase and I have no doubt that it
                        originally referred to a perfectly authentic recipe from the original
                        countries. But I'm not sure how many, if any, of the ingredients
                        are close to the original. The recipe when I was growing up included
                        broad egg noodles and cottage cheese, but neither of these are
                        quite the same as anything that was available in "Upper Hungary"
                        in the 1890's. I learned to make it from my mother and I was
                        surprised to note the differences that I had introduced over the
                        passage of some 30 or 40 years. For instance I use olive oil instead
                        of butter.

                        And again there's the recipe for holupky (stuffed cabbage). My
                        mother likes to top off the pot of holupky with a bit of ketchup
                        before she starts heating it.

                        Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
                        show a direct development of these recipes from the European
                        originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
                        20th century from central Europe.

                        --
                        Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                        vaclav@...
                      • MHoll@aol.com
                        In a message dated 7/4/2003 5:38:25 AM Central Daylight Time, ... You have to understand that accuracy in oral cultures is a concept quite different from what
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 4, 2003
                          In a message dated 7/4/2003 5:38:25 AM Central Daylight Time,
                          vaclav@... writes:

                          > This reminds of the Icelandic Sagas -- these were also performed
                          > orally and accuracy was considered a very important of their
                          > transmission.

                          You have to understand that accuracy in oral cultures is a concept quite
                          different from what we understand as accuracy. It is more like the retelling of a
                          joke (which is not word-for-word and yet is exactly the same joke) rather than
                          the recitation of a poem by Frost.

                          Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
                          by A. Lord.

                          Predslava.


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Alexey Kiyaikin
                          Greetings Waclaw! Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote: VvP Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably) VvP show a direct
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
                            Greetings Waclaw!

                            Friday, July 04, 2003, 3:15:27 PM, you wrote:

                            VvP> Are these authentic Slavic recipes? A researcher could (probably)
                            VvP> show a direct development of these recipes from the European
                            VvP> originals, but they are not authentic recipes of the late 19th/early
                            VvP> 20th century from central Europe.

                            Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                            do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                            false? What immigrants changed THEM?


                            --
                            Bye,
                            Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                          • Alexey Kiyaikin
                            Greetings Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote: Mac Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES Mac by A. Lord. I Am
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 6, 2003
                              Greetings

                              Friday, July 04, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, you wrote:



                              Mac> Again, I will refer anyone interested in the subject to THE SINGER OF TALES
                              Mac> by A. Lord.

                              I Am interested. I AM involved. Please do the job usually required at
                              Laurel events for literature that can't be obtained & understood by
                              others (e.g. when there's a language barrier). In my case I can't get
                              the book even if it's in Russia. Lenin library's sources are blocked
                              mainly. Please do the citing if you really need my reaction to your
                              argument. I need not "get what you must know because we do" but the
                              correct idea you are referring to for the third time. I doubt I'm the
                              only one in this position here.



                              --
                              Bye,
                              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                            • jennifer knox
                              well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
                                well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
                                anya


                                Vaclav von Pressburg <vaclav@...> wrote:

                                One of the common Slavic dishes in this area is called "halushki i
                                syr". A perfectly good Slovak phrase and I have no doubt that it
                                originally referred to a perfectly authentic recipe from the original
                                countries. But I'm not sure how many, if any, of the ingredients
                                are close to the original. The recipe when I was growing up included
                                broad egg noodles and cottage cheese, but neither of these are
                                quite the same as anything that was available in "Upper Hungary"
                                in the 1890's.

                                "Speak softly and carry a big stick" -- Teddy Roosevelt

                                ---------------------------------
                                Do you Yahoo!?
                                SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Julie
                                In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The halusky are
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
                                  In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                                  onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
                                  halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
                                  water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
                                  water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
                                  bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
                                  your stomach will thank you.

                                  Margita


                                  At 01:42 AM 7/8/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                  >well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                                  >any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour,
                                  >with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage
                                  >cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used.
                                  >halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else
                                  >on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or
                                  >halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is
                                  >definately a blending of recipes
                                  >anya
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >90e89db.jpg
                                  >
                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                  ><http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • eclipsek@telusplanet.net
                                  This reminds me of a dish I ve seen up here. (A strongly Ukrainian area of Alberta.) Little bread things (about thumb size) they might be boiled & then fried
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
                                    This reminds me of a dish I've seen up here. (A strongly Ukrainian area of
                                    Alberta.)

                                    Little bread things (about thumb size) they might be boiled & then fried or
                                    perhaps baked (they occasionally have a locally made dry ?cottage? cheese, in
                                    the center) - they are golden brown.
                                    They are served with a cream dill sauce.
                                    They have become one of my favorite foods.

                                    -Kataryna
                                  • Jose Alire
                                    Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it Julie wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried onions and
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 8, 2003
                                      Mmmmmmmmmmmm as Homer would say it

                                      Julie <garden@...> wrote:In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                                      onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds. The
                                      halusky are boiled (per each cup flour, one egg, a little salt and enough
                                      water to make a sticky dough) by cutting them, thumb-sized, into boiling
                                      water. They get puffy and you fish them out. Mix with the onions mixture,
                                      bake in the oven for a while, glob some sour cream on those puppies and
                                      your stomach will thank you.

                                      Margita
                                    • "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik"
                                      Greetings! ... Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                                        Greetings!
                                        >
                                        > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr) would have been what i described. what you described is definately a blending of recipes
                                        >
                                        >
                                        Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine. BTW, the dish is theated as borrowedlong ago, not originally Ukrainian. The Russian analog, Klyotski, is also not typically Russian, but can't remembver where it was borrowed. Seems like Finnish couisine but am not sure without literature (I forgot when I last answered anything from home computer, and of course no literature at work)


                                        Bye,
                                        Alex
                                      • jennifer knox
                                        hi! interesting. would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                                          hi! interesting.
                                          would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                                          anya


                                          Julie <garden@...> wrote:
                                          In my family, halusky are made with a separately cooked mixture of fried
                                          onions and sauerkraut, seasoned with paprika and caraway seeds.
                                          [snipped by moderator]
                                        • jennifer knox
                                          then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe? anya Alexey
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                                            then its eaten differently in slovakia than in russia. ive never seen it eaten with borscht before! sounds good! can you send me a recipe?
                                            anya

                                            "Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik" <Posadnik@...> wrote:

                                            Actually, halushki is the thing Borsch is served with in Ukraine.
                                            [snipped by moderator]
                                          • Julie
                                            Yes, please! I m sure they re good, even if they take only a few hours to prepare ; ) J ... [snipped by moderator. Don t include posts that *other* people
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                                              Yes, please! I'm sure they're good, even if they take only a few hours to
                                              prepare ; )

                                              J


                                              At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                              >hi! interesting.
                                              >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                                              >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                                              >anya

                                              [snipped by moderator. Don't include posts that *other* people have replied to.]
                                            • Jeanne
                                              Yes, I d be very interested in them also! Soffya Appollonia Tudja http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 9, 2003
                                                Yes, I'd be very interested in them also!

                                                Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                                                http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                                                Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                                                three fleur-de-lys Or



                                                At 08:54 AM 7/9/2003 -0700, you wrote:
                                                >hi! interesting.
                                                >would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most
                                                >of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however
                                                >anya


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Vaclav von Pressburg
                                                On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote: . . . ... It s not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the availability of new
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                                  On Sun, Jul 06, 2003 at 10:06:21PM +0400, Alexey Kiyaikin wrote:
                                                  . . .
                                                  > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                                                  > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                                                  > false? What immigrants changed THEM?

                                                  It's not just the immigration, but the passage of time and the
                                                  availability of new ingredients. These recipes are preserved and
                                                  passed on because they are loved. They become changed because they
                                                  are subject to the creative tendencies of the various generations of
                                                  cooks who learned them by imitating their parents.

                                                  "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed because of entropy.

                                                  I have a small book that I picked up in college that I was looking
                                                  at several months ago (and of course I can't find it right now).
                                                  It was published in Moscow in the 1950's and the title is approximately
                                                  "Exercises in Historical Russian Grammar" (cost 50 kopeks!) When
                                                  I bought it I was only interested in historical desinences, but I
                                                  recently wanted to look at what the author had to say about the
                                                  development of phonology. In the section where the author talks
                                                  about the Common Slavic *v in Russian, he says that this was
                                                  pronounced as a semi-vowel (like the English "w"), which he writes
                                                  as a Cyrillic "u" (looks like Roman "y") with a breve over it. He
                                                  gives the various developments in the different Eastern Slavic
                                                  languages and points out one Russian oblast where he says that "at
                                                  the current time" all "v", both initial and final, are pronounced
                                                  as "w".

                                                  Does such a dialect still exist after all these years of unified
                                                  national school curriculum? If it does, what does that imply about the
                                                  extent of this characteristic in the mostly unreported dialects of
                                                  150 or 200 years ago?

                                                  What is not written will change. What is written might be wrong, but
                                                  it can be preserved as a witness of someone's observations at the
                                                  time that it was written.

                                                  --
                                                  Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                                                  vaclav@...
                                                • Vaclav von Pressburg
                                                  ... This sounds wonderful! -- Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos vaclav@bermls.oau.org
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                                    On Wed, Jul 09, 2003 at 08:54:10AM -0700, jennifer knox wrote:
                                                    > hi! interesting.
                                                    > would anyone like recipes that i collected when i lived in slovakia? most of them are from my students grandmothers. they will be modern, however

                                                    This sounds wonderful!

                                                    --
                                                    Waclaw von Pressburg Veritas liberabit uos
                                                    vaclav@...
                                                  • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                                    ... Not false . Just not period documentation . Whether you like it or not, whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over time,
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                                      > Waclaw, and what about me? I'm not an immigrant's son or grandson, I
                                                      > do live in Russia and, why are MY folk lore sources are ad initio called
                                                      > false? What immigrants changed THEM?
                                                      >

                                                      Not 'false'. Just not 'period documentation'. Whether you like it or not,
                                                      whether your ethnic pride wants to believe it or not, cultures change over
                                                      time, and the stories they tell over time get subtly shifted. I know you
                                                      would like to believe that all Russian cultural artifacts, including
                                                      folklore, was preserved precious and unchanged, but social scientists have
                                                      shown, in areas where we do have documentation to compare to folklore,
                                                      that it doesn't work that way.



                                                      -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                      "If one by one we counted people out
                                                      For the least sin, it wouldn't take us long
                                                      To get so that we had no one left to live with.
                                                      For to be social is to be forgiving. " -- Robert Frost, "The Star-Splitter"
                                                    • shannon anderson
                                                      I don t know if anyone has seen them, but I found these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                                        I don't know if anyone has seen them, but I found
                                                        these really cool pictures on the Library of Congress
                                                        website, evidently they ended up with these plates
                                                        after someone's estate was settled. They are pictures
                                                        of russia taken with various color filters and them
                                                        layered to make it look like they are color photos, in
                                                        the pre-color-photo era.

                                                        Check it out...
                                                        http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/
                                                        > "False" is the wrong word -- they are changed
                                                        > because of entropy.
                                                        I would LOVE to see the math for this!! ;)

                                                        this email brought to you by entropy,

                                                        Margarita


                                                        =====
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                        "What saves man is to take a step. Then another step. It is always the same step, but you have to take it."
                                                        -Antoine de Saint-Exupery
                                                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                                        Shannon Anderson
                                                        kitonlove@...

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                                                      • Lente
                                                        Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of ricotta
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                                          Hmm, the cottage cheese change may have happened as a substitution. I know
                                                          that when my sister makes lasagna she will use cottage cheese instead of
                                                          ricotta cheese. why? Mostly a cost issue but also it use to be very hard to
                                                          find ricotta cheese in the grocery stores here in the US. Quite possibly the
                                                          same change happened because it was hard to find the bryndza (or any other
                                                          soft sheep cheese) here in the US.

                                                          Just a thought on how substitutions can happen.
                                                          Kathws

                                                          Alex sent on Wednesday, July 09, 2003 1:40 AM:> Greetings!
                                                          > >
                                                          > > well, as far as the halushky goes, ive never seen it with egg noodles or
                                                          any of that. it was always a small dumpling made from potato and flour, with
                                                          bryndza cheese sauce on it. the halushky is the noodle. cottage cheese isnt
                                                          used. bryndza is a soft sheeps cheese, that is what is used. halushky can
                                                          also be served without the cheese if you put something else on it like
                                                          chicken or another kind of sauce. but bryndzova halusky (or halusky a syr)
                                                          would have been what i described. what you described is definately a
                                                          blending of recipes
                                                        • Alex Grant [T]
                                                          A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one time. Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jul 10, 2003
                                                            A nice large-format photo album/book with his photos was also on sale at one
                                                            time.
                                                            Proskudin-Gorskii is credited with making the first-ever color photographs.


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