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Re: a million rus questions

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  • Kinjal of Moravia
    ... Rurik dynasty ... Russian. ... hard pressed ... Scandinavia come ... When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians (Finns)and others of Varengian source,
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, goldschp@m... wrote:
      > > example, the linguistic influence: There are 10 or fewer words of
      > > Scandinavian origin in the Russian language, while almost all
      Rurik dynasty
      > > princes in Kiev and other towns had Slavic names and spoke
      Russian.
      >
      > What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse, but I'd be a bit
      hard pressed
      > to call it "Russian."
      >
      > Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from
      Scandinavia come
      > from? In what time period? From which countries?
      >
      > ...........................................
      When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians (Finns)and others of
      Varengian source, that were used as slaves and hired help all over
      Russia, it is had to believe that their clothes and language would
      not have had some effect. Words and style are easily adapted and
      renamed, as are myths and stories. Even some of the early Russian
      Saints have a strange resmeblance to Norse counterparts.

      The fact that some of these words and clothing style are not
      directly identifiable does not deny the influence. It is like
      saying that American Culture was little affected by the Indians.
      Yet more than 2000 names; rivers, states, cities -- possibly the car
      you drive carry their words. But quickly they are 'American' words
      and most people don't even know their source.

      Just an opinion -- Kinjal
    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
      ... Why? People make clothes not merely because of function. They make clothes because of how they want to look or how they want to look to other people. ...
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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        > I am not an expert on Medieval clothing, but it seems unrealistic to me to
        > assume that Scandinavian shirt-making and couture made a stong influence on
        > the analogous industry in Russia, which was not in need of any upgrading,
        > being well-suited to its own environment. If the new clothing style or
        > making method was somehow superior or better suited to the local tastes and
        > environment, then you could assume it to make an influence over the
        > local clothing, inferior for specific reasons.

        Why? People make clothes not merely because of function. They make clothes
        because of how they want to look or how they want to look to other people.

        > that Russia
        > did not appear with the comming of the Rurik princes. It was there for
        > centuries before them. This means the Scandinavians did not bring any new
        > breakthroughs in clothing to Russia.

        Um? Where did that come from?
        Just because a culture exists for centuries doesn't say anything about
        what clothes become fashionable.

        Period fashion shows this over and oer again

        > In your examples of American and Islamic fashion, you try to equate recent
        > views on fashion to those of Medieval times.

        Huh? The Islamic example is period. Not recent. It's the persian book that
        was pictured in the Mongol exhibit.

        The Lansknecht example is period. Really. SIXTEENTH CENTURY.

        Which can, in fact be shown by the spread of the various late-period
        clothing styles. In Poland there was significant Italian influence when
        the italians were major players; in the Lowlands there was 'Spanish
        Renaissance' when the Spanish were major players.

        >In those days what set nobles
        > apart from peasants was not the style or fad of clothing
        > (what the other cool guys wore) but the wealth and richness of decorations,
        > the colors, and the presence of certain elements, like fur, gold, exquisite
        > patterns of design, etc, IMO.

        However the informed opinions of people who ARE experts on medieval
        clothing, which I have studied, do say that medieval clothing fashions
        were influenced by cultural change in the ruling classes. The clothing
        literature is full of these examples. I already gave TWO, pre-17th century
        examples, there are others in the spread of Norman fashions in England
        after the Norman conquest.

        Furthermore, technological changes (See "Cut my cote" for examples)
        sometimes spread from newer to older civilizations.

        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
        "In the nonstop tsunami of global information, librarians provide us with
        floaties and teach us how to swim." --Linton Weeks, Washington Post 1/13/01.
      • Alex Grant [T]
        Three (3) replies to follow! ... English. ... at that time-- at least as far as written and archeological records will have ... Ryska Have you tried the
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 13, 2003
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          Three (3) replies to follow!

          > I don't know if the clothing of the original Steppes inhabitants (who may
          > have not called themselves the Rus) was inferior or not, because I can't
          > really find anything on Russian clothing before the 9th century (i.e., the
          > Northmen come to town). I can't find any records, at least not in
          English.
          > Researching the Khazars might help, but probably not much when you're
          > looking for clothing from the Kievan Rus period (10th century to 13th
          > century CE).
          > Scandinavians came in and established themselves in Russia in the 9th to
          > 10th century. That doesn't mean that the people they took over were
          > inferior. It just means that Rus culture was the most prevalent culture
          at that time-- at least as far as written and archeological records will
          have
          > us know.

          Ryska

          Have you tried the Byzantine account of Svyatoslav's campaigns in the
          Balkans? It describes the clothes of the Russian warriors. Rather than
          inferior or superior, my question is: Was one style of clothing better
          suited to the social and climatic environment in Russia than the other
          style. And if so, what were the reasons for adapting a new style, and did it
          actually happen?

          ----------------------------------------------------------------------

          > What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse, but I'd be a bit hard
          > pressed to call it "Russian."
          > Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia
          come from? In what time period? From which countries?
          > Your point may be valid but you're exagerrating and playing fast and loose
          > with your factoids.

          Paul

          I suspect you want to call it old Ukrainian, but it isn't so. If that's not
          the case, please disregard my statement.
          I believe in modern Russian some old Norwegian words were identified as part
          of those 10. I can find the names of linguists who have analyzed Russian for
          etimology if you really want me to; it would just take some time. But I
          researched this issue before, and I am pretty sure you won't find any info
          to contradict this.

          ------------------------------------------------------------------------

          > When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians (Finns)and others of
          > Varengian source, that were used as slaves and hired help all over
          > Russia, it is had to believe that their clothes and language would
          > not have had some effect. Words and style are easily adapted and
          > renamed, as are myths and stories. Even some of the early Russian
          > Saints have a strange resmeblance to Norse counterparts.
          > The fact that some of these words and clothing style are not
          > directly identifiable does not deny the influence. It is like
          > saying that American Culture was little affected by the Indians.
          > Yet more than 2000 names; rivers, states, cities -- possibly the car
          > you drive carry their words. But quickly they are 'American' words
          > and most people don't even know their source.


          Kinjal

          I don't know. Why would slaves or peasants have a reason to sew and stich
          their shirts a different way. They never see their lords stiching in front
          of them, so how would they learn a new method? And even if they did, would
          anyone dare wear one of those and be seen by his/her lord in it?
          The language is easily analyzed by linguistic experts. There is no secret
          about American Indian words in English, or Tatar words in Russian. They can
          all be traced back.

          Alex
        • Tim Nalley
          Maybe it was a combbination of elements working independently to form trends in style. Color is the most obvious way to indicate affluence, as dyed fabric has
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 14, 2003
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            Maybe it was a combbination of elements working
            independently to form trends in style. Color is the
            most obvious way to indicate affluence, as dyed fabric
            has graduated pricing in any period culture, Second,
            fashion is rarely driven in period by whole cloth
            imitation, but imitation on a much smaller scale,
            either because the wearer had certain style elements
            added or because the "tailor" who made the garment
            simply utilized familiar techniques, which were copied
            by others, or not.

            Due to the paucity of artifacts at this time, and the
            obvious presence of peoples from many cultures living,
            trading and/or inter-marrying in Kievian culture, I'm
            inclined to take the melting pot approach for now and
            err on side of caution.
            'dak

            --- Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...>
            wrote:
            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, goldschp@m... wrote:
            > > > example, the linguistic influence: There are 10
            > or fewer words of
            > > > Scandinavian origin in the Russian language,
            > while almost all
            > Rurik dynasty
            > > > princes in Kiev and other towns had Slavic names
            > and spoke
            > Russian.
            > >
            > > What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse,
            > but I'd be a bit
            > hard pressed
            > > to call it "Russian."
            > >
            > > Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan
            > words from
            > Scandinavia come
            > > from? In what time period? From which countries?
            > >
            > > ...........................................
            > When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians
            > (Finns)and others of
            > Varengian source, that were used as slaves and hired
            > help all over
            > Russia, it is had to believe that their clothes and
            > language would
            > not have had some effect. Words and style are easily
            > adapted and
            > renamed, as are myths and stories. Even some of the
            > early Russian
            > Saints have a strange resmeblance to Norse
            > counterparts.
            >
            > The fact that some of these words and clothing style
            > are not
            > directly identifiable does not deny the influence.
            > It is like
            > saying that American Culture was little affected by
            > the Indians.
            > Yet more than 2000 names; rivers, states, cities --
            > possibly the car
            > you drive carry their words. But quickly they are
            > 'American' words
            > and most people don't even know their source.
            >
            > Just an opinion -- Kinjal
            >
            >
            >


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          • Alexey Kiyaikin
            Greetings Jadwiga! ... jfn *sigh* I m not the original poster, but there s a very strong trend in jfn historiography to believe that around the millenium the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 15, 2003
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              Greetings Jadwiga!

              Thursday, June 12, 2003, 10:11:01 PM, you wrote:

              >> > Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at that
              >> > time, ... [snip]
              >>
              >> I would disagree on that.
              >> Could you please clarify what you consider "strong" Scandinavian influence
              >> among the Russians, and especially in the context of clothing. This appears
              >> as if the Russians' own clothing style or methods of making it was somehow
              >> inferior to that of Scandinavian immigrants', which I find hard to believe.

              jfn> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
              jfn> historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
              jfn> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
              jfn> influence on the culture at that time!
              Oh my, Jadwiga, what the , ergm, historiography did you put ruling
              class's (argueable at least) origins and the popular clothes type into
              the same bowl? I can't imagine the picture Levi Strauss's garb being
              popular in, say, Florida several decades after the vere pattern was
              invented. No ruling class could greatly change the national costumes'
              pattern (even in decades or centuries) if it was completely different.
              They could change fashion but not the national costume.

              jfn> To say that there was a very strong influence of X on Y at a given time is
              jfn> not to say that the original Y is inferior-- consider the influence of
              jfn> modern American fashions on the fashion cultures of other countries. Ugly,
              jfn> badly made American clothes become popular as a fad even though they are
              jfn> inferior to what people would wear normally. I'm not sure where you get
              jfn> the implication of inferiority there.
              I'm sure he meant that he didn't believe those Russians borrowed the pattern
              and not invented it themselves or took from the common indo-european
              source of patterns.

              jfn> Or, for instance, consider the islamic minatures that portray famous
              jfn> islamic persons in Mongol garb, which were created when those islamic
              jfn> countries were under the rule of the Mongols.
              Yet one difference - the native ways and habits of sewing then & there
              suffered
              greatly from the invasion, as well as other craft, with ctaftsmen
              being either killed or enslaved. That helped accept anything even if
              those Mongols wore tangas. Russia didn't get that fate in pre-mongol
              times.



              --
              Bye,
              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
            • Alexey Kiyaikin
              Greetings Thursday, June 12, 2003, 10:58:32 PM, you wrote: J *sigh* I m not the original poster, but there s a very strong trend in J historiography to
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 15, 2003
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                Greetings

                Thursday, June 12, 2003, 10:58:32 PM, you wrote:

                J> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                J> historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                J> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                J> influence on the culture at that time!


                J> This is touched upon in the Land of the Tsars, Hitler, er History channel's
                J> documentary on Russia. They stated that the Tartars were originally
                J> Viking/Scandinavian merchants and that's where the name comes from. Not my
                J> spec-al de Masion, but get the DVD if possible.
                ????? Being a Russian and at least 1/16 a Tatar, I am becoming deeply interested in
                this discovery....
                J> Well worth the time, the last 30 min is depressing, Come on Nicholas II,
                J> blah!
                Don't grieve for him. He was sainted not for his personal traits (weak
                and hopeless ruler indeed) but for the sheer fact his executioners had
                no right to do that to his family.




                --
                Bye,
                Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
              • Alexey Kiyaikin
                Greetings Friday, June 13, 2003, 12:22:54 AM, you wrote: gmc Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia come gmc from? In what
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 15, 2003
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                  Greetings

                  Friday, June 13, 2003, 12:22:54 AM, you wrote:


                  gmc> Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia come
                  gmc> from? In what time period? From which countries?

                  gmc> Your point may be valid but you're exagerrating and playing fast and loose
                  gmc> with your factoids.


                  Paul, in this point he is not. I, being taught linguistics, also came across that
                  number. No more than 10, but the source simply mentioned that,
                  regarding them as "Scandinavian".

                  --
                  Bye,
                  Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                  ... The notion of national costume is generally considered by Western costume historians to be 17th and 18th century in origin, which is very frustrating for
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 16, 2003
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                    > jfn> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                    > jfn> historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                    > jfn> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                    > jfn> influence on the culture at that time!
                    > Oh my, Jadwiga, what the , ergm, historiography did you put ruling
                    > class's (argueable at least) origins and the popular clothes type into
                    > the same bowl? I can't imagine the picture Levi Strauss's garb being
                    > popular in, say, Florida several decades after the vere pattern was
                    > invented. No ruling class could greatly change the national costumes'
                    > pattern (even in decades or centuries) if it was completely different.
                    > They could change fashion but not the national costume.

                    The notion of 'national costume' is generally considered by Western
                    costume historians to be 17th and 18th century in origin, which is very
                    frustrating for those of us researching West Slavic cultures-- since it
                    means that the national and regional costume books aren't all that much
                    help. This again may be a translation issue-- the phrase 'national
                    costume' means one thing to these costume historians and may mean another
                    thing to you.

                    Olga Sronkova's book on 16th to 18th century fashions, specifically
                    centering on Bohemia, is an interesting work talking about the adoption of
                    Spanish Renaissance costume in Bohemia, etc. in the 16th century.

                    I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the Florida reference?

                    > I'm sure he meant that he didn't believe those Russians borrowed the pattern
                    > and not invented it themselves or took from the common indo-european
                    > source of patterns.

                    I've always found it curious that there is a similarity between the
                    'traditional' polygonal overdress with straps that is considered
                    postperiod for Russia and the Viking apron-dress... but because we do have
                    some pictures from the intervening period, it seems clear that there is no
                    direct connection. So both could have come out of one single impulse at
                    different times.


                    -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                    "In the nonstop tsunami of global information, librarians provide us with
                    floaties and teach us how to swim." --Linton Weeks, Washington Post 1/13/01.
                  • Kinjal of Moravia
                    ... strong trend in ... ruling class in ... very strong ... .............................................. Without searching through some old references, did
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 16, 2003
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                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, <jenne@f...> wrote:
                      > > jfn> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very
                      strong trend in
                      > > jfn> historiography to believe that around the millenium the
                      ruling class in
                      > > jfn> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a
                      very strong
                      > > jfn> influence on the culture at that time!
                      ..............................................

                      Without searching through some old references, did not the Poles
                      elect a Swedish King to rule on several occations? Surly this had
                      some effect on culture, including dress.

                      Kinjal
                      > >
                    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                      ... Dunno... the Swedish invasion of Poland was after my period of study! However, Jadwiga (who was Hungarian but of the House of Anjou) apparently brought
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 16, 2003
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                        > Without searching through some old references, did not the Poles
                        > elect a Swedish King to rule on several occations? Surly this had
                        > some effect on culture, including dress.

                        Dunno... the Swedish invasion of Poland was after my period of study!
                        However, Jadwiga (who was Hungarian but of the House of Anjou) apparently
                        brought some very western influences with her when she came to Poland; and
                        Jagiello brought some Lithuanian influences, it is said.

                        The most famous monarch issue in Poland is Queen Bona Sforza; she brought
                        Italian influence to the fore in Poland when she became queen. Most
                        instances of Italian influence in Polish culture are traced to the period
                        when she was queen, but since that was also the beginning of the 100 years
                        of serious grain trade between Poland and Italy, there may have been heavy
                        economic and trade influences as well.

                        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                        "We made a vow/we'd always be friends
                        How could we know/ that promises end?" Eric Clapton
                      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                        Greetings Jadwiga! ... 16 century is already the age of Fashion, not of Convenience. ... I meant Strauss jeans were not doomed to become fashionable in few
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 17, 2003
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                          Greetings Jadwiga!


                          > Olga Sronkova's book on 16th to 18th century fashions, specifically
                          > centering on Bohemia, is an interesting work talking about the adoption of
                          > Spanish Renaissance costume in Bohemia, etc. in the 16th century.

                          16 century is already the age of Fashion, not of Convenience.

                          >
                          > I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the Florida reference?

                          I meant Strauss jeans were not doomed to become fashionable in few ecades. Some decades passed before they became at least known throughout the US. Jeans fashion came much later. The same with any borrowed clothing.

                          >
                          > > I'm sure he meant that he didn't believe those Russians borrowed the pattern
                          > > and not invented it themselves or took from the common indo-european
                          > > source of patterns.
                          >
                          > I've always found it curious that there is a similarity between the
                          > 'traditional' polygonal overdress with straps that is considered
                          > postperiod for Russia and the Viking apron-dress... but because we do have
                          Russian scholars drive the similarity with Mongol sleeveless overcoats and Corean dresses as well. The main difference with the Viking women's apron dress is that it was not sewn. Russian sarafan required no buckles that were essential to scandinavians' status symbolism. So they are farther from each other than, say, East Nurkestan and Byzanthium shirts (which were not in the least relational, though looking similar). All in all, there were simply no Vikings at hand when Sarafans & Shubkas were worn. And strapped model is even more young afair.

                          > some pictures from the intervening period, it seems clear that there is no
                          > direct connection. So both could have come out of one single impulse at
                          > different times.

                          yes, so we see that there was no need to create "borrowing from he vikings" when we remember that Russia was a part of the whole-Europe cultural environment.

                          bye,
                          Alex
                        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                          Greetings! ... Tell me, what cultural effect remained when Mongolian rule in China ceased to be? Or when Britain invited the Hannover dynasty? When a country
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 17, 2003
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                            Greetings!
                            >
                            > Without searching through some old references, did not the Poles
                            > elect a Swedish King to rule on several occations? Surly this had
                            > some effect on culture, including dress.

                            Tell me, what cultural effect remained when Mongolian rule in China ceased to be? Or when Britain invited the Hannover dynasty?

                            When a country is open to changes, they happen without any "chenge manager" on the throne. If not, then not.

                            bye,
                            Alex.
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