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Re: Pennsic embroidery floss

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  • Linda Learn
    Hi Anya! I m glad you got on the list... pretty neat, isn t it! Yes, I m Dragons Magic, in the brown Slavic house on wheels next to Klaus and Megan (the Guild
    Message 1 of 28 , Jun 1, 2003
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      Hi Anya!
      I'm glad you got on the list... pretty neat, isn't it!
      Yes, I'm Dragons Magic, in the brown Slavic house on wheels next to Klaus
      and Megan (the Guild of Limners). I'll be in the same spot this year if
      everything goes well.... Klaus and Megan and I work well together and the
      Coopers appreciate the way we share our spaces together so, unless they've
      put in some really low power lines across the road around the lake, I'll be
      there again. And I will be bringing the same silk and linen flosses again
      this year. (and lots of linens ;)
      I never did anything more with the information in those nice Hungarian
      Archeological books, drat. I really wanted to try to reproduce those
      needles! Life gets in the way of living....(wry grin).
      Have you found more neat stuff in your fascinating work?
      Maria Pienkneplotno (Pretty Linen ;)

      PS... if I can put on a blurb so people can find the linen floss?:
      http://www.classactfabrics.com/other%20inventroy/Linen%20thread%20floss.htm



      > Hi!
      > so, i was at pennsic last year, and found a wonderful
      > shop, next to klaus the toymakers that sold vegetable
      > dyed embroidery floss. the lady selling it had a
      > polish persona (uh, hi, remember me? i lived in
      > slovakia then? you had all the nice hungarian books?)

      > will you be selling stuff at pennsic again? where will
      > you be?
      >
      > anya
    • jennifer knox
      ok, everyone, here are some questions ive been saving up over the years and havent been able to find the answers to... 1.pre mongol kievan rus rubhakas.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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        ok, everyone, here are some questions ive been saving
        up over the years and havent been able to find the
        answers to...

        1.pre mongol kievan rus' rubhakas. shaped armholes or
        square? gussets or no gussets? shoulder seams or no?
        has anyone found documentation for seam finishing (ie,
        what kind?) where can i find documentation for that?

        2. has anyone found any documentation for period
        russian tablet weaving and the patterns they used?

        3. i found these novgorodian shoes (and am in the
        process of making them):

        http://arc.novgorod.ru/image/large.php3?imn=15&type=f&lng=e

        and

        http://arc.novgorod.ru/image/large.php3?imn=16&type=f&lng=e

        and

        http://eng.novgorod-museum.ru/museums/coll/archeo.sthml

        (close up on this page):
        http//eng.novgorod-museum.ru/images/k7_6.jpg


        again, they are from novgorod. my question is: what is
        the liklihood that similiar shoes would have been worn
        in kiev? have similar shoes been found there or were
        the styles different enough to distinguish these as
        novgorodian (specifically, that is?)

        4.heres a khazar boot:
        http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/boot1.html
        can any of you tell me who exactly would have worn
        this? (ok,ok, the khazars, but where exactly would
        they have been and did others (ie,in the major centers
        like kiev or novgorod wear something similar? i looked
        but it just said that the khazars, the alans and the
        slavs in the saltov region. can anyone tell me more?
        if not, can anyone tell me where to look?

        and the last question
        5.did the upper class and royalty also wear the palla
        with their superhumeral, or did only the byzantines
        use both? i know the rus were wearing the byz. collar
        in at least their ceremonial clothing, but how often
        and by who was the palla used with it, if at all? what
        was the difference between the russian one and the
        byz. one if they did wear them?

        thanks! i think ive given you all enough to chew on
        for now!

        anya

        ps:
        has everyone seen this page?:
        http://archaeology.kiev.ua/journal/061100/pachenko.htm




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      • jennifer knox
        everyone look at this! http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/clothing.html it is a completely amazing site! you wont be sorry! please please let me know if the
        Message 3 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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          everyone look at this!

          http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/clothing.html

          it is a completely amazing site! you wont be sorry!
          please please let me know if the link doesnt work so i
          can send it to you again, you shouldnt miss out on
          this one!

          anya



          =====
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        • Kinjal of Moravia
          ... the Alan wore soft boots because of the harness loops they used to tie them in their saddles to free up their arms. During idle or ceremonial camp times I
          Message 4 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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            ---this probably won't help much, but I remember a reference that
            the Alan wore soft boots because of the harness loops they used to
            tie them in their saddles to free up their arms. During idle or
            ceremonial camp times I don't have a clue, but many Turkic tribes
            had a kind of clog they would slip on to protect against moisture,
            dung, etc., and was never worn inside.

            Kinjal
          • MHoll@aol.com
            In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:33:42 AM Central Daylight Time, ... AFAIK, it s anyone s guess. No surviving artifacts. Some pictures, that s all. ... None that
            Message 5 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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              In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:33:42 AM Central Daylight Time,
              jeniferknox@... writes:

              > 1.pre mongol kievan rus' rubhakas. shaped armholes or
              > square?

              AFAIK, it's anyone's guess. No surviving artifacts. Some pictures, that's
              all.

              > 2. has anyone found any documentation for period
              > russian tablet weaving and the patterns they used?

              None that I've found. Again, conjecture. I don't remember *Russian* tablets
              being found, which would mean tablet weaving would've been imported. Unless my
              memory is faulty.

              Predslava.


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • May, Clan Tremere
              I m enjoying that link you sent us, Anya, so thanks. ... Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at that time, you may want to defer
              Message 6 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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                I'm enjoying that link you sent us, Anya, so thanks.

                >1.pre mongol kievan rus' rubhakas. shaped armholes or
                >square?

                Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at that
                time, you may want to defer what you know about Viking clothing at that
                time, at least for details like that (I've found more resources for Viking
                clothing than Rus clothing). Remember that shaped AND square armholes could
                have both existed at the same time,

                I've always made my rubhakas with square armholes, personally, because it's
                easier, faster, and frankly, if you wear a zapona or navershnik or such, no
                one's going to see your armholes anyway.

                Ryska (or, if my bard friend has her way, "Varja Likes-to-hit-things")

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              • jennifer knox
                have you guys seen these groups! how great!!!!!! here are links to their photogalleries. makes me want to pack up and move there!
                Message 7 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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                  have you guys seen these groups! how great!!!!!! here
                  are links to their photogalleries. makes me want to
                  pack up and move there!

                  http://blackraven.go.ru/photos/
                  http://www.dom-np.narod.ru/

                  anya

                  =====
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                • Dmitriy Ryaboy
                  Why thank you, Anya :). Regarding the khazar boot -- the bit I translated for the Kaganate web page is pretty much all that is known about that boot. I have
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jun 9, 2003
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                    Why thank you, Anya :).
                    Regarding the khazar boot -- the bit I translated for the Kaganate web
                    page is pretty much all that is known about that boot. I have not
                    seen felt boot evidence that would warrant extending it to a larger
                    group of cultures, but then again, so little of the 10th century stuff
                    survives, and I've seen such a small subsection of it.. ;)
                    For Russia, I'd still go with simple leather turnshoes, but I can't
                    say that boots like these would look completely out of place.

                    -Dmitriy

                    jennifer knox <jeniferknox@y...> wrote:
                    > everyone look at this!
                    >
                    > http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/clothing.html
                    >
                    > it is a completely amazing site! you wont be sorry!
                    > anya
                  • Marilee Humason
                    ... you also have it? it is called Ipek: the Crescent and the Rose it is Ottoman textiles and has a lot of pictures of Russian stuff as well. Being that the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jun 10, 2003
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                      --- MHoll@... wrote:
                      > In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:33:42 AM Central
                      > Daylight Time,
                      > jeniferknox@... writes:
                      >
                      > > >
                      > > 2. has anyone found any documentation for period
                      > > russian tablet weaving and the patterns they used?
                      >
                      > None that I've found. Again, conjecture. I don't
                      > remember *Russian* tablets
                      > being found, which would mean tablet weaving
                      > would've been imported. Unless my
                      > memory is faulty.
                      >
                      > Predslava.
                      >
                      > I have a really great book, I don't know if any of
                      you also have it? it is called "Ipek: the Crescent and
                      the Rose" it is Ottoman textiles and has a lot of
                      pictures of Russian stuff as well. Being that the
                      Russians didn't make their own brocades, never the
                      less, the pictures show a lot of Russian Garments, all
                      within period. one of the pages has a close up of the
                      braided or tablet woven closings and shows the cards.
                      It is not an artifact (the card weaving part) just a
                      diagram, but this very important source seems to think
                      that the Turks, Persians and Russians did it.
                      I also remember my old Mistress/Laurel a million years
                      ago telling me that the russians did tablet/card
                      weaving for some of their trim, which is why I took
                      the class originally.She had been to Russia at the
                      time and was-and is- the most knowledgable costume
                      person I know to date.
                      I realize this is not hard evidence, you all like to
                      see an actual extant piece, so I guess the Ipek book
                      is the closest I have found so far.
                      Regards,
                      Baroness Anastasia
                      > >


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                    • jennifer knox
                      sounds great! can you send me the author/editor/ publisher/etc info? thanks! anya ... you also have it? it is called Ipek: the Crescent and the Rose it is
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jun 11, 2003
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                        sounds great! can you send me the author/editor/ publisher/etc info? thanks!
                        anya


                        Marilee Humason <stasiwa@...> wrote:
                        > I have a really great book, I don't know if any of
                        you also have it? it is called "Ipek: the Crescent and
                        the Rose" it is Ottoman textiles and has a lot of
                        pictures of Russian stuff as well.

                        [edited by moderator. Please do not quote entire posts. Only include relevant material. Yana]
                      • Alex Grant [T]
                        ... I would disagree on that. Could you please clarify what you consider strong Scandinavian influence among the Russians, and especially in the context of
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jun 11, 2003
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                          May, Clan Tremere wrote:

                          > Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at that
                          > time, ... [snip]


                          I would disagree on that.
                          Could you please clarify what you consider "strong" Scandinavian influence
                          among the Russians, and especially in the context of clothing. This appears
                          as if the Russians' own clothing style or methods of making it was somehow
                          inferior to that of Scandinavian immigrants', which I find hard to believe.

                          Sorry to be off topic.


                          Thanks,

                          Alex
                        • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                          ... *sigh* I m not the original poster, but there s a very strong trend in historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in Russia was
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                            > > Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at that
                            > > time, ... [snip]
                            >
                            > I would disagree on that.
                            > Could you please clarify what you consider "strong" Scandinavian influence
                            > among the Russians, and especially in the context of clothing. This appears
                            > as if the Russians' own clothing style or methods of making it was somehow
                            > inferior to that of Scandinavian immigrants', which I find hard to believe.

                            *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                            historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                            Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                            influence on the culture at that time!

                            To say that there was a very strong influence of X on Y at a given time is
                            not to say that the original Y is inferior-- consider the influence of
                            modern American fashions on the fashion cultures of other countries. Ugly,
                            badly made American clothes become popular as a fad even though they are
                            inferior to what people would wear normally. I'm not sure where you get
                            the implication of inferiority there.

                            Or, for instance, consider the islamic minatures that portray famous
                            islamic persons in Mongol garb, which were created when those islamic
                            countries were under the rule of the Mongols.

                            In particular, if you look at Western medieval culture, you see the later
                            Renaissance fashion that is known as 'puff and slash' which is an
                            adaptation of the peculiar dress of Landsknecht mercenaries. This is
                            equivalent to the rich white american boys who dress in the clothing made
                            fashionable by "homeboys from the 'hood"-- for the rich young men and
                            women were dressing in fashion that was made famous by mercenary soldiers
                            considered bloodthirsty, brutish barbarians.

                            -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                            "In the nonstop tsunami of global information, librarians provide us with
                            floaties and teach us how to swim." --Linton Weeks, Washington Post 1/13/01.
                          • Jeanne
                            *sigh* I m not the original poster, but there s a very strong trend in historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in Russia was
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                              *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                              historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                              Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                              influence on the culture at that time!


                              This is touched upon in the Land of the Tsars, Hitler, er History channel's
                              documentary on Russia. They stated that the Tartars were originally
                              Viking/Scandinavian merchants and that's where the name comes from. Not my
                              spec-al de Masion, but get the DVD if possible.

                              Well worth the time, the last 30 min is depressing, Come on Nicholas II,
                              blah!


                              Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                              http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                              Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                              three fleur-de-lys Or


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Jennifer Parsons
                              ... Not a problem, Alex, but I m confused as to how you think noting the prevalence of Scandinavian-style dress among the Kievan Rus indicates that the
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                > > Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at
                                >that
                                > > time, ... [snip]
                                >I would disagree on that.
                                >Could you please clarify what you consider "strong" Scandinavian influence
                                >among the Russians, and especially in the context of clothing. This appears
                                >as if the Russians' own clothing style or methods of making it was somehow
                                >inferior to that of Scandinavian immigrants', which I find hard to believe.
                                >Sorry to be off topic.

                                Not a problem, Alex, but I'm confused as to how you think noting the
                                prevalence of Scandinavian-style dress among the Kievan Rus indicates that
                                the clothing of the previous inhabitants of the area was inferior.

                                I don't know if the clothing of the original Steppes inhabitants (who may
                                have not called themselves the Rus) was inferior or not, because I can't
                                really find anything on Russian clothing before the 9th century (i.e., the
                                Northmen come to town). I can't find any records, at least not in English.
                                Researching the Khazars might help, but probably not much when you're
                                looking for clothing from the Kievan Rus period (10th century to 13th
                                century CE).

                                Scandinavians came in and established themselves in Russia in the 9th to
                                10th century. That doesn't mean that the people they took over were
                                inferior. It just means that Rus culture was the most prevalent culture at
                                that time-- at least as far as written and archeological records will have
                                us know.

                                ~Ryska

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                              • Alex Grant [T]
                                Strong influence would have definitely left a mark for us to see today. I am aware of the history of the Russian ruling class starting with Rurik, however,
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                  "Strong influence" would have definitely left a mark for us to see today.

                                  I am aware of the history of the Russian ruling class starting with Rurik,
                                  however, regardless of how strong the historiographic trends may be among
                                  their adherents, archeological, cultural, linguistic, and
                                  religious research do not give much support to said trends. Take, for
                                  example, the linguistic influence: There are 10 or fewer words of
                                  Scandinavian origin in the Russian language, while almost all Rurik dynasty
                                  princes in Kiev and other towns had Slavic names and spoke Russian.

                                  I am not an expert on Medieval clothing, but it seems unrealistic to me to
                                  assume that Scandinavian shirt-making and couture made a stong influence on
                                  the analogous industry in Russia, which was not in need of any upgrading,
                                  being well-suited to its own environment. If the new clothing style or
                                  making method was somehow superior or better suited to the local tastes and
                                  environment, then you could assume it to make an influence over the
                                  local clothing, inferior for specific reasons. You have to keep in mind
                                  that Russia
                                  did not appear with the comming of the Rurik princes. It was there for
                                  centuries before them. This means the Scandinavians did not bring any new
                                  breakthroughs in clothing to Russia. I don't think Scandinavia was a
                                  trend-setter in any fashions of the time. Scandinavia did not have organized
                                  governments, countries, or even cities when Rus was already a
                                  bona-fide country with a single grand prince ruler, foreign relations with
                                  other states, fortified towns, high literacy, and higly developed national
                                  art and culture. It very much shows that "Scandinavian," Varangian rulers
                                  fell under strong Russian influence in Russia, and not the other way around.

                                  In your examples of American and Islamic fashion, you try to equate recent
                                  views on fashion to those of Medieval times. In those days what set nobles
                                  apart from peasants was not the style or fad of clothing
                                  (what the other cool guys wore) but the wealth and richness of decorations,
                                  the colors, and the presence of certain elements, like fur, gold, exquisite
                                  patterns of design, etc, IMO.


                                  Alex


                                  > *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                                  > historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                                  > Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                                  > influence on the culture at that time!
                                  >
                                  > To say that there was a very strong influence of X on Y at a given time is
                                  > not to say that the original Y is inferior-- consider the influence of
                                  > modern American fashions on the fashion cultures of other countries. Ugly,
                                  > badly made American clothes become popular as a fad even though they are
                                  > inferior to what people would wear normally. I'm not sure where you get
                                  > the implication of inferiority there.
                                  >
                                  > Or, for instance, consider the islamic minatures that portray famous
                                  > islamic persons in Mongol garb, which were created when those islamic
                                  > countries were under the rule of the Mongols.
                                  >
                                  > In particular, if you look at Western medieval culture, you see the later
                                  > Renaissance fashion that is known as 'puff and slash' which is an
                                  > adaptation of the peculiar dress of Landsknecht mercenaries. This is
                                  > equivalent to the rich white american boys who dress in the clothing made
                                  > fashionable by "homeboys from the 'hood"-- for the rich young men and
                                  > women were dressing in fashion that was made famous by mercenary soldiers
                                  > considered bloodthirsty, brutish barbarians.
                                  >
                                • goldschp@mailbag.com
                                  ... What language did they speak? It wasn t Norse, but I d be a bit hard pressed to call it Russian. Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                    > example, the linguistic influence: There are 10 or fewer words of
                                    > Scandinavian origin in the Russian language, while almost all Rurik dynasty
                                    > princes in Kiev and other towns had Slavic names and spoke Russian.

                                    What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse, but I'd be a bit hard pressed
                                    to call it "Russian."

                                    Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia come
                                    from? In what time period? From which countries?

                                    Your point may be valid but you're exagerrating and playing fast and loose
                                    with your factoids.

                                    -- Paul
                                  • Kinjal of Moravia
                                    ... Rurik dynasty ... Russian. ... hard pressed ... Scandinavia come ... When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians (Finns)and others of Varengian source,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, goldschp@m... wrote:
                                      > > example, the linguistic influence: There are 10 or fewer words of
                                      > > Scandinavian origin in the Russian language, while almost all
                                      Rurik dynasty
                                      > > princes in Kiev and other towns had Slavic names and spoke
                                      Russian.
                                      >
                                      > What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse, but I'd be a bit
                                      hard pressed
                                      > to call it "Russian."
                                      >
                                      > Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from
                                      Scandinavia come
                                      > from? In what time period? From which countries?
                                      >
                                      > ...........................................
                                      When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians (Finns)and others of
                                      Varengian source, that were used as slaves and hired help all over
                                      Russia, it is had to believe that their clothes and language would
                                      not have had some effect. Words and style are easily adapted and
                                      renamed, as are myths and stories. Even some of the early Russian
                                      Saints have a strange resmeblance to Norse counterparts.

                                      The fact that some of these words and clothing style are not
                                      directly identifiable does not deny the influence. It is like
                                      saying that American Culture was little affected by the Indians.
                                      Yet more than 2000 names; rivers, states, cities -- possibly the car
                                      you drive carry their words. But quickly they are 'American' words
                                      and most people don't even know their source.

                                      Just an opinion -- Kinjal
                                    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                      ... Why? People make clothes not merely because of function. They make clothes because of how they want to look or how they want to look to other people. ...
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jun 12, 2003
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                                        > I am not an expert on Medieval clothing, but it seems unrealistic to me to
                                        > assume that Scandinavian shirt-making and couture made a stong influence on
                                        > the analogous industry in Russia, which was not in need of any upgrading,
                                        > being well-suited to its own environment. If the new clothing style or
                                        > making method was somehow superior or better suited to the local tastes and
                                        > environment, then you could assume it to make an influence over the
                                        > local clothing, inferior for specific reasons.

                                        Why? People make clothes not merely because of function. They make clothes
                                        because of how they want to look or how they want to look to other people.

                                        > that Russia
                                        > did not appear with the comming of the Rurik princes. It was there for
                                        > centuries before them. This means the Scandinavians did not bring any new
                                        > breakthroughs in clothing to Russia.

                                        Um? Where did that come from?
                                        Just because a culture exists for centuries doesn't say anything about
                                        what clothes become fashionable.

                                        Period fashion shows this over and oer again

                                        > In your examples of American and Islamic fashion, you try to equate recent
                                        > views on fashion to those of Medieval times.

                                        Huh? The Islamic example is period. Not recent. It's the persian book that
                                        was pictured in the Mongol exhibit.

                                        The Lansknecht example is period. Really. SIXTEENTH CENTURY.

                                        Which can, in fact be shown by the spread of the various late-period
                                        clothing styles. In Poland there was significant Italian influence when
                                        the italians were major players; in the Lowlands there was 'Spanish
                                        Renaissance' when the Spanish were major players.

                                        >In those days what set nobles
                                        > apart from peasants was not the style or fad of clothing
                                        > (what the other cool guys wore) but the wealth and richness of decorations,
                                        > the colors, and the presence of certain elements, like fur, gold, exquisite
                                        > patterns of design, etc, IMO.

                                        However the informed opinions of people who ARE experts on medieval
                                        clothing, which I have studied, do say that medieval clothing fashions
                                        were influenced by cultural change in the ruling classes. The clothing
                                        literature is full of these examples. I already gave TWO, pre-17th century
                                        examples, there are others in the spread of Norman fashions in England
                                        after the Norman conquest.

                                        Furthermore, technological changes (See "Cut my cote" for examples)
                                        sometimes spread from newer to older civilizations.

                                        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                        "In the nonstop tsunami of global information, librarians provide us with
                                        floaties and teach us how to swim." --Linton Weeks, Washington Post 1/13/01.
                                      • Alex Grant [T]
                                        Three (3) replies to follow! ... English. ... at that time-- at least as far as written and archeological records will have ... Ryska Have you tried the
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jun 13, 2003
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                                          Three (3) replies to follow!

                                          > I don't know if the clothing of the original Steppes inhabitants (who may
                                          > have not called themselves the Rus) was inferior or not, because I can't
                                          > really find anything on Russian clothing before the 9th century (i.e., the
                                          > Northmen come to town). I can't find any records, at least not in
                                          English.
                                          > Researching the Khazars might help, but probably not much when you're
                                          > looking for clothing from the Kievan Rus period (10th century to 13th
                                          > century CE).
                                          > Scandinavians came in and established themselves in Russia in the 9th to
                                          > 10th century. That doesn't mean that the people they took over were
                                          > inferior. It just means that Rus culture was the most prevalent culture
                                          at that time-- at least as far as written and archeological records will
                                          have
                                          > us know.

                                          Ryska

                                          Have you tried the Byzantine account of Svyatoslav's campaigns in the
                                          Balkans? It describes the clothes of the Russian warriors. Rather than
                                          inferior or superior, my question is: Was one style of clothing better
                                          suited to the social and climatic environment in Russia than the other
                                          style. And if so, what were the reasons for adapting a new style, and did it
                                          actually happen?

                                          ----------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          > What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse, but I'd be a bit hard
                                          > pressed to call it "Russian."
                                          > Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia
                                          come from? In what time period? From which countries?
                                          > Your point may be valid but you're exagerrating and playing fast and loose
                                          > with your factoids.

                                          Paul

                                          I suspect you want to call it old Ukrainian, but it isn't so. If that's not
                                          the case, please disregard my statement.
                                          I believe in modern Russian some old Norwegian words were identified as part
                                          of those 10. I can find the names of linguists who have analyzed Russian for
                                          etimology if you really want me to; it would just take some time. But I
                                          researched this issue before, and I am pretty sure you won't find any info
                                          to contradict this.

                                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------

                                          > When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians (Finns)and others of
                                          > Varengian source, that were used as slaves and hired help all over
                                          > Russia, it is had to believe that their clothes and language would
                                          > not have had some effect. Words and style are easily adapted and
                                          > renamed, as are myths and stories. Even some of the early Russian
                                          > Saints have a strange resmeblance to Norse counterparts.
                                          > The fact that some of these words and clothing style are not
                                          > directly identifiable does not deny the influence. It is like
                                          > saying that American Culture was little affected by the Indians.
                                          > Yet more than 2000 names; rivers, states, cities -- possibly the car
                                          > you drive carry their words. But quickly they are 'American' words
                                          > and most people don't even know their source.


                                          Kinjal

                                          I don't know. Why would slaves or peasants have a reason to sew and stich
                                          their shirts a different way. They never see their lords stiching in front
                                          of them, so how would they learn a new method? And even if they did, would
                                          anyone dare wear one of those and be seen by his/her lord in it?
                                          The language is easily analyzed by linguistic experts. There is no secret
                                          about American Indian words in English, or Tatar words in Russian. They can
                                          all be traced back.

                                          Alex
                                        • Tim Nalley
                                          Maybe it was a combbination of elements working independently to form trends in style. Color is the most obvious way to indicate affluence, as dyed fabric has
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jun 14, 2003
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                                            Maybe it was a combbination of elements working
                                            independently to form trends in style. Color is the
                                            most obvious way to indicate affluence, as dyed fabric
                                            has graduated pricing in any period culture, Second,
                                            fashion is rarely driven in period by whole cloth
                                            imitation, but imitation on a much smaller scale,
                                            either because the wearer had certain style elements
                                            added or because the "tailor" who made the garment
                                            simply utilized familiar techniques, which were copied
                                            by others, or not.

                                            Due to the paucity of artifacts at this time, and the
                                            obvious presence of peoples from many cultures living,
                                            trading and/or inter-marrying in Kievian culture, I'm
                                            inclined to take the melting pot approach for now and
                                            err on side of caution.
                                            'dak

                                            --- Kinjal of Moravia <gusarimagic@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, goldschp@m... wrote:
                                            > > > example, the linguistic influence: There are 10
                                            > or fewer words of
                                            > > > Scandinavian origin in the Russian language,
                                            > while almost all
                                            > Rurik dynasty
                                            > > > princes in Kiev and other towns had Slavic names
                                            > and spoke
                                            > Russian.
                                            > >
                                            > > What language did they speak? It wasn't Norse,
                                            > but I'd be a bit
                                            > hard pressed
                                            > > to call it "Russian."
                                            > >
                                            > > Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan
                                            > words from
                                            > Scandinavia come
                                            > > from? In what time period? From which countries?
                                            > >
                                            > > ...........................................
                                            > When you concider the thousands of Mordvidians
                                            > (Finns)and others of
                                            > Varengian source, that were used as slaves and hired
                                            > help all over
                                            > Russia, it is had to believe that their clothes and
                                            > language would
                                            > not have had some effect. Words and style are easily
                                            > adapted and
                                            > renamed, as are myths and stories. Even some of the
                                            > early Russian
                                            > Saints have a strange resmeblance to Norse
                                            > counterparts.
                                            >
                                            > The fact that some of these words and clothing style
                                            > are not
                                            > directly identifiable does not deny the influence.
                                            > It is like
                                            > saying that American Culture was little affected by
                                            > the Indians.
                                            > Yet more than 2000 names; rivers, states, cities --
                                            > possibly the car
                                            > you drive carry their words. But quickly they are
                                            > 'American' words
                                            > and most people don't even know their source.
                                            >
                                            > Just an opinion -- Kinjal
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            __________________________________
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                                          • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                            Greetings Jadwiga! ... jfn *sigh* I m not the original poster, but there s a very strong trend in jfn historiography to believe that around the millenium the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jun 15, 2003
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                                              Greetings Jadwiga!

                                              Thursday, June 12, 2003, 10:11:01 PM, you wrote:

                                              >> > Given that there was a strong Scandinavian influence among the Rus at that
                                              >> > time, ... [snip]
                                              >>
                                              >> I would disagree on that.
                                              >> Could you please clarify what you consider "strong" Scandinavian influence
                                              >> among the Russians, and especially in the context of clothing. This appears
                                              >> as if the Russians' own clothing style or methods of making it was somehow
                                              >> inferior to that of Scandinavian immigrants', which I find hard to believe.

                                              jfn> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                                              jfn> historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                                              jfn> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                                              jfn> influence on the culture at that time!
                                              Oh my, Jadwiga, what the , ergm, historiography did you put ruling
                                              class's (argueable at least) origins and the popular clothes type into
                                              the same bowl? I can't imagine the picture Levi Strauss's garb being
                                              popular in, say, Florida several decades after the vere pattern was
                                              invented. No ruling class could greatly change the national costumes'
                                              pattern (even in decades or centuries) if it was completely different.
                                              They could change fashion but not the national costume.

                                              jfn> To say that there was a very strong influence of X on Y at a given time is
                                              jfn> not to say that the original Y is inferior-- consider the influence of
                                              jfn> modern American fashions on the fashion cultures of other countries. Ugly,
                                              jfn> badly made American clothes become popular as a fad even though they are
                                              jfn> inferior to what people would wear normally. I'm not sure where you get
                                              jfn> the implication of inferiority there.
                                              I'm sure he meant that he didn't believe those Russians borrowed the pattern
                                              and not invented it themselves or took from the common indo-european
                                              source of patterns.

                                              jfn> Or, for instance, consider the islamic minatures that portray famous
                                              jfn> islamic persons in Mongol garb, which were created when those islamic
                                              jfn> countries were under the rule of the Mongols.
                                              Yet one difference - the native ways and habits of sewing then & there
                                              suffered
                                              greatly from the invasion, as well as other craft, with ctaftsmen
                                              being either killed or enslaved. That helped accept anything even if
                                              those Mongols wore tangas. Russia didn't get that fate in pre-mongol
                                              times.



                                              --
                                              Bye,
                                              Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                                            • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                              Greetings Thursday, June 12, 2003, 10:58:32 PM, you wrote: J *sigh* I m not the original poster, but there s a very strong trend in J historiography to
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jun 15, 2003
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                                                Greetings

                                                Thursday, June 12, 2003, 10:58:32 PM, you wrote:

                                                J> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                                                J> historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                                                J> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                                                J> influence on the culture at that time!


                                                J> This is touched upon in the Land of the Tsars, Hitler, er History channel's
                                                J> documentary on Russia. They stated that the Tartars were originally
                                                J> Viking/Scandinavian merchants and that's where the name comes from. Not my
                                                J> spec-al de Masion, but get the DVD if possible.
                                                ????? Being a Russian and at least 1/16 a Tatar, I am becoming deeply interested in
                                                this discovery....
                                                J> Well worth the time, the last 30 min is depressing, Come on Nicholas II,
                                                J> blah!
                                                Don't grieve for him. He was sainted not for his personal traits (weak
                                                and hopeless ruler indeed) but for the sheer fact his executioners had
                                                no right to do that to his family.




                                                --
                                                Bye,
                                                Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                                              • Alexey Kiyaikin
                                                Greetings Friday, June 13, 2003, 12:22:54 AM, you wrote: gmc Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia come gmc from? In what
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jun 15, 2003
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                                                  Greetings

                                                  Friday, June 13, 2003, 12:22:54 AM, you wrote:


                                                  gmc> Also, where does your cite for 10 or fewer loan words from Scandinavia come
                                                  gmc> from? In what time period? From which countries?

                                                  gmc> Your point may be valid but you're exagerrating and playing fast and loose
                                                  gmc> with your factoids.


                                                  Paul, in this point he is not. I, being taught linguistics, also came across that
                                                  number. No more than 10, but the source simply mentioned that,
                                                  regarding them as "Scandinavian".

                                                  --
                                                  Bye,
                                                  Alex mailto:Posadnik@...
                                                • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                                  ... The notion of national costume is generally considered by Western costume historians to be 17th and 18th century in origin, which is very frustrating for
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                                    > jfn> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very strong trend in
                                                    > jfn> historiography to believe that around the millenium the ruling class in
                                                    > jfn> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a very strong
                                                    > jfn> influence on the culture at that time!
                                                    > Oh my, Jadwiga, what the , ergm, historiography did you put ruling
                                                    > class's (argueable at least) origins and the popular clothes type into
                                                    > the same bowl? I can't imagine the picture Levi Strauss's garb being
                                                    > popular in, say, Florida several decades after the vere pattern was
                                                    > invented. No ruling class could greatly change the national costumes'
                                                    > pattern (even in decades or centuries) if it was completely different.
                                                    > They could change fashion but not the national costume.

                                                    The notion of 'national costume' is generally considered by Western
                                                    costume historians to be 17th and 18th century in origin, which is very
                                                    frustrating for those of us researching West Slavic cultures-- since it
                                                    means that the national and regional costume books aren't all that much
                                                    help. This again may be a translation issue-- the phrase 'national
                                                    costume' means one thing to these costume historians and may mean another
                                                    thing to you.

                                                    Olga Sronkova's book on 16th to 18th century fashions, specifically
                                                    centering on Bohemia, is an interesting work talking about the adoption of
                                                    Spanish Renaissance costume in Bohemia, etc. in the 16th century.

                                                    I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the Florida reference?

                                                    > I'm sure he meant that he didn't believe those Russians borrowed the pattern
                                                    > and not invented it themselves or took from the common indo-european
                                                    > source of patterns.

                                                    I've always found it curious that there is a similarity between the
                                                    'traditional' polygonal overdress with straps that is considered
                                                    postperiod for Russia and the Viking apron-dress... but because we do have
                                                    some pictures from the intervening period, it seems clear that there is no
                                                    direct connection. So both could have come out of one single impulse at
                                                    different times.


                                                    -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                    "In the nonstop tsunami of global information, librarians provide us with
                                                    floaties and teach us how to swim." --Linton Weeks, Washington Post 1/13/01.
                                                  • Kinjal of Moravia
                                                    ... strong trend in ... ruling class in ... very strong ... .............................................. Without searching through some old references, did
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, <jenne@f...> wrote:
                                                      > > jfn> *sigh* I'm not the original poster, but there's a very
                                                      strong trend in
                                                      > > jfn> historiography to believe that around the millenium the
                                                      ruling class in
                                                      > > jfn> Russia was Scandinavian, which would definitely lead to a
                                                      very strong
                                                      > > jfn> influence on the culture at that time!
                                                      ..............................................

                                                      Without searching through some old references, did not the Poles
                                                      elect a Swedish King to rule on several occations? Surly this had
                                                      some effect on culture, including dress.

                                                      Kinjal
                                                      > >
                                                    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                                      ... Dunno... the Swedish invasion of Poland was after my period of study! However, Jadwiga (who was Hungarian but of the House of Anjou) apparently brought
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jun 16, 2003
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                                                        > Without searching through some old references, did not the Poles
                                                        > elect a Swedish King to rule on several occations? Surly this had
                                                        > some effect on culture, including dress.

                                                        Dunno... the Swedish invasion of Poland was after my period of study!
                                                        However, Jadwiga (who was Hungarian but of the House of Anjou) apparently
                                                        brought some very western influences with her when she came to Poland; and
                                                        Jagiello brought some Lithuanian influences, it is said.

                                                        The most famous monarch issue in Poland is Queen Bona Sforza; she brought
                                                        Italian influence to the fore in Poland when she became queen. Most
                                                        instances of Italian influence in Polish culture are traced to the period
                                                        when she was queen, but since that was also the beginning of the 100 years
                                                        of serious grain trade between Poland and Italy, there may have been heavy
                                                        economic and trade influences as well.

                                                        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                        "We made a vow/we'd always be friends
                                                        How could we know/ that promises end?" Eric Clapton
                                                      • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                                                        Greetings Jadwiga! ... 16 century is already the age of Fashion, not of Convenience. ... I meant Strauss jeans were not doomed to become fashionable in few
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jun 17, 2003
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                                                          Greetings Jadwiga!


                                                          > Olga Sronkova's book on 16th to 18th century fashions, specifically
                                                          > centering on Bohemia, is an interesting work talking about the adoption of
                                                          > Spanish Renaissance costume in Bohemia, etc. in the 16th century.

                                                          16 century is already the age of Fashion, not of Convenience.

                                                          >
                                                          > I'm not sure what you are trying to say with the Florida reference?

                                                          I meant Strauss jeans were not doomed to become fashionable in few ecades. Some decades passed before they became at least known throughout the US. Jeans fashion came much later. The same with any borrowed clothing.

                                                          >
                                                          > > I'm sure he meant that he didn't believe those Russians borrowed the pattern
                                                          > > and not invented it themselves or took from the common indo-european
                                                          > > source of patterns.
                                                          >
                                                          > I've always found it curious that there is a similarity between the
                                                          > 'traditional' polygonal overdress with straps that is considered
                                                          > postperiod for Russia and the Viking apron-dress... but because we do have
                                                          Russian scholars drive the similarity with Mongol sleeveless overcoats and Corean dresses as well. The main difference with the Viking women's apron dress is that it was not sewn. Russian sarafan required no buckles that were essential to scandinavians' status symbolism. So they are farther from each other than, say, East Nurkestan and Byzanthium shirts (which were not in the least relational, though looking similar). All in all, there were simply no Vikings at hand when Sarafans & Shubkas were worn. And strapped model is even more young afair.

                                                          > some pictures from the intervening period, it seems clear that there is no
                                                          > direct connection. So both could have come out of one single impulse at
                                                          > different times.

                                                          yes, so we see that there was no need to create "borrowing from he vikings" when we remember that Russia was a part of the whole-Europe cultural environment.

                                                          bye,
                                                          Alex
                                                        • Alexey Kiyaikin aka Posadnik
                                                          Greetings! ... Tell me, what cultural effect remained when Mongolian rule in China ceased to be? Or when Britain invited the Hannover dynasty? When a country
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jun 17, 2003
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                                                            Greetings!
                                                            >
                                                            > Without searching through some old references, did not the Poles
                                                            > elect a Swedish King to rule on several occations? Surly this had
                                                            > some effect on culture, including dress.

                                                            Tell me, what cultural effect remained when Mongolian rule in China ceased to be? Or when Britain invited the Hannover dynasty?

                                                            When a country is open to changes, they happen without any "chenge manager" on the throne. If not, then not.

                                                            bye,
                                                            Alex.
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