Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

So how do we dig?(was LONG Re: (Despina) Clothing in the Court of Dracula LONG)

Expand Messages
  • sismith42
    Despina: But the evidence is there... you just haven t dug far enough to find it yet. *snip* Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
    Message 1 of 24 , May 2, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      "Despina:
      But the evidence is there... you just haven't dug far enough to find
      it yet.

      *snip*

      Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
      European fashions rather than those fashions of the West."

      Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
      I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
      you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

      1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my uni's
      library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
      you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
      that may not be obvious?
      2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
      history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
      freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop an
      understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
      when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
      hints would be greatly appreciated...

      2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
      the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
      radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
      late-ish 14th?

      Many thanks, and my appologies if this sounds more like a whinge
      on "research is hard", as it's meant to be a "please clue me into
      directions to look"!

      Cheers, Stefania
    • abbondanza
      I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being produced, scadian or mundane/professional? Antoinette B.S. in Art History ...
      Message 2 of 24 , May 2, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
        produced, scadian or mundane/professional?

        Antoinette
        B.S. in Art History

        > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
        > the sources in your bibliography?

        __________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
        http://search.yahoo.com
      • Farkas Istvan
        The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at http://www.realmsofavalon.org/ It is a new group but is growing. Istvan
        Message 3 of 24 , May 2, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at

          http://www.realmsofavalon.org/

          It is a new group but is growing.

          Istvan

          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
          >
          > > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
          > > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
          > > historical re-creation group.
          >
          > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
          > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm
        • Jeanne Papanastasiou
          I m also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying actual vampire lore from all over the world. I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had
          Message 4 of 24 , May 2, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
            actual vampire lore from all over the world.

            I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the Vampire's
            ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as Buffy
            (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His brother
            went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best friend went
            as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely 5 feet
            tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).

            After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks we got.
            But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne, yes a
            throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included male
            castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

            So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New Orleans.

            And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
            experience!

            Soffya Appollonia Tudja
            http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
            Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
            three fleur-de-lys Or




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • aheilvei
            The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group ... Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical accuracy and education, despite
            Message 5 of 24 , May 3, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
              > from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
              > historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.

              Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical
              accuracy and education, despite what you seem to think. A large
              number of SCA members are professional historians, lecturers,
              factual authors, hold PhD's and Masters degrees in history, and are
              professors at major universities. Many of those transfer their
              modern love of history into their SCA life and use it to further
              research and educate others. (Otherwise, why would you come to us
              for help in your research?)

              So stating that the SCA isn't educationally based or that it's
              members aren't interested in historical accuracy is unrealistic and
              untrue. Don't get me wrong, there are a large number of members who
              prefer to party and 'dress up'. But please don't lump the entire
              SCA into that group. The SCA has come a long way in the nearly 40
              years of it's exsistance and is continuting to make headway.

              Those who portray Slavic personae, in general, are among some of the
              more scholarly of the SCA. In part, because the sources can be rare
              and difficult to find many who want to just party are turned off by
              the amount of research needed to portray a Slavic persona.

              Cu Drag,
              Domina Despina ot Brasov
            • aheilvei
              Hi, I m trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as I ve found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if you could expand upon your
              Message 6 of 24 , May 5, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                Despina:
                Thanks for pointing out the hole I dug, Stephania! *grin*
                I'll start by saying I know nothing from Polish and research can be
                very difficult.

                Stephania:
                1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my
                uni's
                library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
                you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
                that may not be obvious?

                Despina:
                Google and other search engines are a good start.

                Many monasteries have museums within them or they preserve artifacts
                left in their keeping. Contacting the monasteries directly, once
                you have a basic idea of what they might have in their care, is
                another way to go.

                Find out if your university has a Slavic or Near Eastern division –
                if so, go and explore it for a day or five. *grin* If not, figure
                out where the books you would be interested in fall in the Dewey
                Decimal System (or whatever shelving system your library uses) and
                camp out in that section for a day or six. Pick up the books and
                look through them, even if they are in languages you aren't familiar
                with….

                Get a dictionary to/for that language and English and memorize terms
                that will help you when looking through those books. If it hasn't
                any pictures but when looking at the index you see the word
                for "costume" and "medieval" and "warfare" and whatever else you're
                interested in, it might be worth your while to try translating those
                chapters. Search for books with those words in the titles.

                Interlibrary Loan is your friend. Some libraries charge a nominal
                fee for this service, but it's generally worth it (most university
                libraries don't charge for it, as it's built into the student's
                fees). Search the bibliography of the books you have – translate
                the ones you can't read. See if certain author's names turn up
                consistently within your area of study and do a search on that
                author. See if your local university has lending agreements with
                other organizations and groups and search those library listings as
                well.

                As for keywords that might not be obvious, I'd say again, consult a
                two language dictionary and go for it. You'd be amazed at what
                you'll find on websites done in a country's native language – many
                of which don't have online translators attached to them so searching
                for that word in English won't pop up the information, even though
                it's out there and easily accessible.

                Search the museums that might not be obvious to you. As mentioned
                in the earlier thread, the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Met, the
                National Gallery in Washington DC. Find out what museums in your
                area have online collections. Look through art books that cover the
                centuries you want and then ask museum personel if they know
                where "Cool Guy on a Horse" painted by Great Artist, a Saxon in the
                year 1398 is currently located. The more specific you can be with
                your questions to museums, the better the answers you will recieve
                from them.

                Stephania:
                2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
                history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
                freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop
                an
                understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
                when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
                hints would be greatly appreciated...

                Despina:
                Make sure that the history you're reading isn't biased too heavily
                toward any given side. Reading multiple histories of a region is
                best, when possible. This gives you multiple points of view and
                allows you to sort through the dreck and find the kernels of truth
                in each to put together what you believe (and can support) to be a
                cohesive restructuring of the actual history. This can be
                especially difficult with the countries that were formerly behind
                the "Iron Curtain", due to restrictions on publications and
                censorship.

                That being said, how many times was the country over run by Group X?
                For how many years were they occupied by Group X? Any ideas as to
                how many of Group X stayed in the area after the invasion? The lower
                those numbers, the less impact on the locals that group was likely
                to have had.

                Is the country (or better yet, the city) which you're investigating
                on a trade route? Was the trade route major or minor? Did it serve
                for several countries or just for the immediate area?

                Is the country (or city) the site of a major religious `thing'? Be
                that a cathedral, a vision, a shrine, a piece of the cross, a
                monastery, a major church, the only church for 100 miles, or some
                other such? If so, it might have been a pilgrimage place and the
                citizens would have seen people coming from far away, wearing and
                carrying (and eating) goodness only knows what – investigate those
                pilgrims and the places from which they came.

                Who did your rulers marry? From whence came the brides and grooms?
                Grooms can have more of an impact on the society than brides –
                depending, of course, on the layer of society into which they marry
                and their ability to `keep' their wife. Philip II of Spain certainly
                didn't have the sway over Mary of England that he would have liked.
                Either way (bride or groom) the incoming half of the marriage would
                most certainly have brought their own servants, clothing, sense of
                style and taste; how much impact that taste had on the society into
                which that person was thrust is a matter for investigation.

                Stephania:
                2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
                the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
                radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
                late-ish 14th?

                Despina:
                I'm most comfortable within 50 years of the date one wants to
                represent. That's 50 years before or behind; other people have other
                fields of comfort for this. Again, looking at the cultures
                surrounding your area of interest, and the cultures with which yours
                had major contact is going to give you a lot of information on which
                to make solid educated guesses. Usually when focusing to either side
                of a date, one can find a few pieces and clues to either side,
                making hypothesis easier.

                By narrowing the focus to a single date, one has put on blinders and
                will often miss small but very helpful clues. No person ever
                arrived fully formed, aged 26 in the year 1539, complete with
                clothing, food, armor, education, and background in his home. Just
                as now, that person who was 26 in 1539 became who he was through the
                years that he had lived up to 1539. So while it might not be
                fashionable to have a Majolica compote in oranges and yellows any
                longer, it might be what he's got on which to serve fruits to his
                guests so he'll use it.

                By focusing within 50 years to either side, you give yourself leeway
                and the ability to look at more sources, which lead to more sources,
                which lead…. And before you realize it, you'll be able to paint a
                fairly accurate picture of a pretty tight time.... (of course, this
                could be years, not months)

                Also keep in mind if your geographic area (city or village) is close
                to a major hub or out in the boonies. Those in the boonies are
                going to be wearing last decade's fashions rather than just last
                year's. Many people forget the length of time it could take for a
                fashion change to reach some areas in that time period.

                Long winded, but I hope it helps.

                Smiles,
                Despina
              • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                ... I ve got a list of some books here: http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                Message 7 of 24 , May 5, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  > Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                  > I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                  > you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                  I've got a list of some books here:
                  http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html

                  Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                  more material I have on hand? THanks!

                  -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                  "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                  tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                  -- L.B. Johnson
                • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                  By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone feels like looking at it and jumping in. ... -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 5, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone
                    feels like looking at it and jumping in.

                    > I've got a list of some books here:
                    > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                    >
                    > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                    > more material I have on hand? THanks!
                    >
                    > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                    > "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                    > tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                    > -- L.B. Johnson
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                    "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                    tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                    -- L.B. Johnson
                  • sismith42
                    ... with ... Hi Jadwiga, Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it before, but didn t remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 6, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      > I've got a list of some books here:
                      > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                      >
                      > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                      with
                      > more material I have on hand? THanks!

                      Hi Jadwiga,
                      Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it
                      before, but didn't remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                      wanted poking about updating...? ;-)

                      Stefania
                    • Alexandreina Dragos
                      ... As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon. There are a few of us very
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 6, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, abbondanza <delacroi29@y...> wrote:
                        > I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
                        > produced, scadian or mundane/professional?
                        >
                        > Antoinette
                        > B.S. in Art History
                        >
                        > > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
                        > > the sources in your bibliography?
                        >
                        As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online
                        newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon.
                        There are a few of us very interested in Vlad's reign and who have
                        chosen our personas from there so we're doing our best to figure out
                        the clothes.
                        Reina
                      • Alexandreina Dragos
                        ... Vampire s ... Buffy ... brother ... friend went ... 5 feet ... we got. LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball attendees I ve spoken
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 6, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jeanne Papanastasiou" <jeanne@a...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                          > actual vampire lore from all over the world.
                          >
                          > I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the
                          Vampire's
                          > ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as
                          Buffy
                          > (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His
                          brother
                          > went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best
                          friend went
                          > as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely
                          5 feet
                          > tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).
                          >
                          > After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks
                          we got.

                          LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball
                          attendees I've spoken with in the past it's very much an "Anne Rice
                          Universe ONLY" at these things.

                          > But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne,
                          yes a
                          > throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included
                          male
                          > castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                          Oh my! Yeah, I DO like her writing (well most of it but this
                          certainly isn't the list to expound upon my theories on Lestat or
                          explain why I like Louis better)but I've never had the sense that
                          she's someone I'd like to hang out with. And I'm not even a guy! LOL

                          >
                          > So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New
                          Orleans.

                          Oh envy envy envy! I soooooo wanna go to New Orleans! And to LARP
                          VtM there! What fun!

                          >
                          > And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                          > experience!

                          I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                          Regards,
                          Reina
                        • Jeanne Papanastasiou
                          [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 6, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I mean it. --Yana, moderator]





                            ask me off list!

                            Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                            http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                            Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                            three fleur-de-lys Or

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Alexandreina Dragos [mailto:lamiastrix@...]

                            I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                            Regards,
                            Reina
                          • viola_de_lessops
                            Hello: I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to everyone in hope
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 11, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello:

                              I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests
                              lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to
                              everyone in hope that someone will know answers.

                              My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                              medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                              relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                              2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                              1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                              what language were they from?

                              Thank you very much. Any help is much appreciated.

                              Johanna
                            • Ron Jachim
                              1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies God s Playground (volume 1). I can t recall the exact year, but if someone has that handy, it
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies' "God's
                                Playground" (volume 1). I can't recall the exact year, but if
                                someone has that handy, it should have the answer.

                                2) I don't follow your question.

                                Ron
                              • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                ... The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr Górecki. I am hoping to have a review for it
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                  > medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                  > relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                  The book to check out for this is:
                                  _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                  Górecki.

                                  I am hoping to have a review for it for the Spring 2004 Slovo

                                  > 2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                  > 1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                  > what language were they from?

                                  Since Polish was not a written language early in period, there is some
                                  question about the spelling of place names; in some documents they were
                                  Latinized. But in general place names were taken from the Polish language
                                  and just written down in Latin characters.

                                  -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                  "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                  can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                  -- Margaret Mead
                                • MoxFool@aol.com
                                  In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                    jenne@... writes:
                                    The book to check out for this is:
                                    _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                    Górecki.

                                    Witam, Czesc Panstvo!

                                    Is this in English or Polish?

                                    Dziekuje!
                                    Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                    Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                    Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                    Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                    Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                    ... English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > jenne@... writes:
                                      > The book to check out for this is:
                                      > _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                      > Górecki.
                                      >
                                      > Witam, Czesc Panstvo!
                                      >
                                      > Is this in English or Polish?
                                      >

                                      English! :)

                                      -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                      "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                      can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                      -- Margaret Mead
                                    • MoxFool@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 13, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                        jenne@... writes:
                                        English! :)

                                        -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                        "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                        can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                        -- Margaret Mead
                                        Great! Hello, inter-library loan!

                                        Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                        Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                        Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                        Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                        Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.