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So how do we dig?(was LONG Re: (Despina) Clothing in the Court of Dracula LONG)

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  • sismith42
    Despina: But the evidence is there... you just haven t dug far enough to find it yet. *snip* Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
    Message 1 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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      "Despina:
      But the evidence is there... you just haven't dug far enough to find
      it yet.

      *snip*

      Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
      European fashions rather than those fashions of the West."

      Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
      I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
      you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

      1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my uni's
      library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
      you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
      that may not be obvious?
      2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
      history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
      freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop an
      understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
      when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
      hints would be greatly appreciated...

      2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
      the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
      radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
      late-ish 14th?

      Many thanks, and my appologies if this sounds more like a whinge
      on "research is hard", as it's meant to be a "please clue me into
      directions to look"!

      Cheers, Stefania
    • abbondanza
      I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being produced, scadian or mundane/professional? Antoinette B.S. in Art History ...
      Message 2 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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        I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
        produced, scadian or mundane/professional?

        Antoinette
        B.S. in Art History

        > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
        > the sources in your bibliography?

        __________________________________
        Do you Yahoo!?
        The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
        http://search.yahoo.com
      • aheilvei
        ... Realms of Avalon? The role playing group? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm About a half dozen or so of us are ... me to
        Message 3 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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          > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
          > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
          > historical re-creation group.

          Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
          http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

          About a half dozen or so of us are
          > interested in Dracula's reign and have based our personas on his
          > court. Being the biggest costuming junkie among uo it's fallen to
          me to do the garb research. LOL Once it's finally finished I'll
          > probably also post it to the Abput Dracula and Vlad Tepes lists.

          Any particular reason for the interest in Vlad's era of reign, other
          than the gothic novel? Stepan cel Mere was a tremendously
          interesting ruler, as was Radu the Great and Mattias Corvinias.....

          I'm
          > currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see what
          > she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month.
          I'll be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!

          I appreciate the offer of sharing. Dr. Miller is a wonderful
          scholar, having done a lot of research on the gothic novel, with her
          interest mostly centered around the fictional Dracula and the
          superstition of vampires and the like. She's highly respected in
          the English literature commuinty, I'm sure information that she has
          to pass along is certainly worthwhile.

          Cu Drag,
          Domina Despina ot Brasov
        • Alexandreina Dragos
          ... Ummmm...no. LOL The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on historical accuracy
          Message 4 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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            >
            > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
            > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

            Ummmm...no. LOL The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
            from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
            historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.


            > Any particular reason for the interest in Vlad's era of reign,
            other
            > than the gothic novel? Stepan cel Mere was a tremendously
            > interesting ruler, as was Radu the Great and Mattias Corvinias.....

            Oh admittedly there were certainly nicer and perhaps "better" rulers
            to live under but Dracula is just fascinating (as a psychological
            study if nothing else) and since we don't REALLY live under his rule
            it's fun to play at it. I was fascinated by him as a child as soon
            as I found out (around age 10) that there was a REAL Dracula. Yes,
            I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
            actual vampire lore from all over the world. And naturally there's
            lots of vampire jokes among our crowd. But our aim is indeed to
            portray people from the historical Dracula's court, not the fanciful
            vampire count cooked up by Stoker. You'll never catch me at an SCA
            event wearing my fangs or weird contacts, I promise! :)

            >
            > I'm
            > > currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see
            what
            > > she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month.
            > I'll be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!
            >
            > I appreciate the offer of sharing. Dr. Miller is a wonderful
            > scholar, having done a lot of research on the gothic novel, with
            her
            > interest mostly centered around the fictional Dracula and the
            > superstition of vampires and the like. She's highly respected in
            > the English literature commuinty, I'm sure information that she has
            > to pass along is certainly worthwhile.
            >
            > Cu Drag,
            > Domina Despina ot Brasov

            Well no kidding! She's no slouch when it comes to the historical
            Dracula as well and is just a really neat lady.
            Regards,
            Reina
          • Farkas Istvan
            The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at http://www.realmsofavalon.org/ It is a new group but is growing. Istvan
            Message 5 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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              The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at

              http://www.realmsofavalon.org/

              It is a new group but is growing.

              Istvan

              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
              >
              > > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
              > > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
              > > historical re-creation group.
              >
              > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
              > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm
            • Jeanne Papanastasiou
              I m also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying actual vampire lore from all over the world. I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had
              Message 6 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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                I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                actual vampire lore from all over the world.

                I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the Vampire's
                ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as Buffy
                (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His brother
                went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best friend went
                as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely 5 feet
                tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).

                After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks we got.
                But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne, yes a
                throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included male
                castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New Orleans.

                And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                experience!

                Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                three fleur-de-lys Or




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • aheilvei
                The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group ... Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical accuracy and education, despite
                Message 7 of 24 , May 3, 2003
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                  The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
                  > from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
                  > historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.

                  Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical
                  accuracy and education, despite what you seem to think. A large
                  number of SCA members are professional historians, lecturers,
                  factual authors, hold PhD's and Masters degrees in history, and are
                  professors at major universities. Many of those transfer their
                  modern love of history into their SCA life and use it to further
                  research and educate others. (Otherwise, why would you come to us
                  for help in your research?)

                  So stating that the SCA isn't educationally based or that it's
                  members aren't interested in historical accuracy is unrealistic and
                  untrue. Don't get me wrong, there are a large number of members who
                  prefer to party and 'dress up'. But please don't lump the entire
                  SCA into that group. The SCA has come a long way in the nearly 40
                  years of it's exsistance and is continuting to make headway.

                  Those who portray Slavic personae, in general, are among some of the
                  more scholarly of the SCA. In part, because the sources can be rare
                  and difficult to find many who want to just party are turned off by
                  the amount of research needed to portray a Slavic persona.

                  Cu Drag,
                  Domina Despina ot Brasov
                • aheilvei
                  Hi, I m trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as I ve found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if you could expand upon your
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 5, 2003
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                    Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                    I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                    you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                    Despina:
                    Thanks for pointing out the hole I dug, Stephania! *grin*
                    I'll start by saying I know nothing from Polish and research can be
                    very difficult.

                    Stephania:
                    1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my
                    uni's
                    library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
                    you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
                    that may not be obvious?

                    Despina:
                    Google and other search engines are a good start.

                    Many monasteries have museums within them or they preserve artifacts
                    left in their keeping. Contacting the monasteries directly, once
                    you have a basic idea of what they might have in their care, is
                    another way to go.

                    Find out if your university has a Slavic or Near Eastern division –
                    if so, go and explore it for a day or five. *grin* If not, figure
                    out where the books you would be interested in fall in the Dewey
                    Decimal System (or whatever shelving system your library uses) and
                    camp out in that section for a day or six. Pick up the books and
                    look through them, even if they are in languages you aren't familiar
                    with….

                    Get a dictionary to/for that language and English and memorize terms
                    that will help you when looking through those books. If it hasn't
                    any pictures but when looking at the index you see the word
                    for "costume" and "medieval" and "warfare" and whatever else you're
                    interested in, it might be worth your while to try translating those
                    chapters. Search for books with those words in the titles.

                    Interlibrary Loan is your friend. Some libraries charge a nominal
                    fee for this service, but it's generally worth it (most university
                    libraries don't charge for it, as it's built into the student's
                    fees). Search the bibliography of the books you have – translate
                    the ones you can't read. See if certain author's names turn up
                    consistently within your area of study and do a search on that
                    author. See if your local university has lending agreements with
                    other organizations and groups and search those library listings as
                    well.

                    As for keywords that might not be obvious, I'd say again, consult a
                    two language dictionary and go for it. You'd be amazed at what
                    you'll find on websites done in a country's native language – many
                    of which don't have online translators attached to them so searching
                    for that word in English won't pop up the information, even though
                    it's out there and easily accessible.

                    Search the museums that might not be obvious to you. As mentioned
                    in the earlier thread, the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Met, the
                    National Gallery in Washington DC. Find out what museums in your
                    area have online collections. Look through art books that cover the
                    centuries you want and then ask museum personel if they know
                    where "Cool Guy on a Horse" painted by Great Artist, a Saxon in the
                    year 1398 is currently located. The more specific you can be with
                    your questions to museums, the better the answers you will recieve
                    from them.

                    Stephania:
                    2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
                    history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
                    freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop
                    an
                    understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
                    when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
                    hints would be greatly appreciated...

                    Despina:
                    Make sure that the history you're reading isn't biased too heavily
                    toward any given side. Reading multiple histories of a region is
                    best, when possible. This gives you multiple points of view and
                    allows you to sort through the dreck and find the kernels of truth
                    in each to put together what you believe (and can support) to be a
                    cohesive restructuring of the actual history. This can be
                    especially difficult with the countries that were formerly behind
                    the "Iron Curtain", due to restrictions on publications and
                    censorship.

                    That being said, how many times was the country over run by Group X?
                    For how many years were they occupied by Group X? Any ideas as to
                    how many of Group X stayed in the area after the invasion? The lower
                    those numbers, the less impact on the locals that group was likely
                    to have had.

                    Is the country (or better yet, the city) which you're investigating
                    on a trade route? Was the trade route major or minor? Did it serve
                    for several countries or just for the immediate area?

                    Is the country (or city) the site of a major religious `thing'? Be
                    that a cathedral, a vision, a shrine, a piece of the cross, a
                    monastery, a major church, the only church for 100 miles, or some
                    other such? If so, it might have been a pilgrimage place and the
                    citizens would have seen people coming from far away, wearing and
                    carrying (and eating) goodness only knows what – investigate those
                    pilgrims and the places from which they came.

                    Who did your rulers marry? From whence came the brides and grooms?
                    Grooms can have more of an impact on the society than brides –
                    depending, of course, on the layer of society into which they marry
                    and their ability to `keep' their wife. Philip II of Spain certainly
                    didn't have the sway over Mary of England that he would have liked.
                    Either way (bride or groom) the incoming half of the marriage would
                    most certainly have brought their own servants, clothing, sense of
                    style and taste; how much impact that taste had on the society into
                    which that person was thrust is a matter for investigation.

                    Stephania:
                    2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
                    the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
                    radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
                    late-ish 14th?

                    Despina:
                    I'm most comfortable within 50 years of the date one wants to
                    represent. That's 50 years before or behind; other people have other
                    fields of comfort for this. Again, looking at the cultures
                    surrounding your area of interest, and the cultures with which yours
                    had major contact is going to give you a lot of information on which
                    to make solid educated guesses. Usually when focusing to either side
                    of a date, one can find a few pieces and clues to either side,
                    making hypothesis easier.

                    By narrowing the focus to a single date, one has put on blinders and
                    will often miss small but very helpful clues. No person ever
                    arrived fully formed, aged 26 in the year 1539, complete with
                    clothing, food, armor, education, and background in his home. Just
                    as now, that person who was 26 in 1539 became who he was through the
                    years that he had lived up to 1539. So while it might not be
                    fashionable to have a Majolica compote in oranges and yellows any
                    longer, it might be what he's got on which to serve fruits to his
                    guests so he'll use it.

                    By focusing within 50 years to either side, you give yourself leeway
                    and the ability to look at more sources, which lead to more sources,
                    which lead…. And before you realize it, you'll be able to paint a
                    fairly accurate picture of a pretty tight time.... (of course, this
                    could be years, not months)

                    Also keep in mind if your geographic area (city or village) is close
                    to a major hub or out in the boonies. Those in the boonies are
                    going to be wearing last decade's fashions rather than just last
                    year's. Many people forget the length of time it could take for a
                    fashion change to reach some areas in that time period.

                    Long winded, but I hope it helps.

                    Smiles,
                    Despina
                  • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                    ... I ve got a list of some books here: http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 5, 2003
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                      > Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                      > I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                      > you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                      I've got a list of some books here:
                      http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html

                      Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                      more material I have on hand? THanks!

                      -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                      "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                      tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                      -- L.B. Johnson
                    • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                      By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone feels like looking at it and jumping in. ... -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 5, 2003
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                        By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone
                        feels like looking at it and jumping in.

                        > I've got a list of some books here:
                        > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                        >
                        > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                        > more material I have on hand? THanks!
                        >
                        > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                        > "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                        > tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                        > -- L.B. Johnson
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                        "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                        tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                        -- L.B. Johnson
                      • sismith42
                        ... with ... Hi Jadwiga, Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it before, but didn t remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                          > I've got a list of some books here:
                          > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                          >
                          > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                          with
                          > more material I have on hand? THanks!

                          Hi Jadwiga,
                          Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it
                          before, but didn't remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                          wanted poking about updating...? ;-)

                          Stefania
                        • Alexandreina Dragos
                          ... As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon. There are a few of us very
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, abbondanza <delacroi29@y...> wrote:
                            > I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
                            > produced, scadian or mundane/professional?
                            >
                            > Antoinette
                            > B.S. in Art History
                            >
                            > > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
                            > > the sources in your bibliography?
                            >
                            As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online
                            newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon.
                            There are a few of us very interested in Vlad's reign and who have
                            chosen our personas from there so we're doing our best to figure out
                            the clothes.
                            Reina
                          • Alexandreina Dragos
                            ... Vampire s ... Buffy ... brother ... friend went ... 5 feet ... we got. LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball attendees I ve spoken
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                              --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jeanne Papanastasiou" <jeanne@a...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                              > actual vampire lore from all over the world.
                              >
                              > I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the
                              Vampire's
                              > ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as
                              Buffy
                              > (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His
                              brother
                              > went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best
                              friend went
                              > as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely
                              5 feet
                              > tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).
                              >
                              > After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks
                              we got.

                              LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball
                              attendees I've spoken with in the past it's very much an "Anne Rice
                              Universe ONLY" at these things.

                              > But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne,
                              yes a
                              > throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included
                              male
                              > castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                              Oh my! Yeah, I DO like her writing (well most of it but this
                              certainly isn't the list to expound upon my theories on Lestat or
                              explain why I like Louis better)but I've never had the sense that
                              she's someone I'd like to hang out with. And I'm not even a guy! LOL

                              >
                              > So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New
                              Orleans.

                              Oh envy envy envy! I soooooo wanna go to New Orleans! And to LARP
                              VtM there! What fun!

                              >
                              > And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                              > experience!

                              I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                              Regards,
                              Reina
                            • Jeanne Papanastasiou
                              [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                                [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I mean it. --Yana, moderator]





                                ask me off list!

                                Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                                http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                                Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                                three fleur-de-lys Or

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Alexandreina Dragos [mailto:lamiastrix@...]

                                I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                                Regards,
                                Reina
                              • viola_de_lessops
                                Hello: I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to everyone in hope
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 11, 2004
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                                  Hello:

                                  I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests
                                  lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to
                                  everyone in hope that someone will know answers.

                                  My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                  medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                  relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                  2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                  1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                  what language were they from?

                                  Thank you very much. Any help is much appreciated.

                                  Johanna
                                • Ron Jachim
                                  1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies God s Playground (volume 1). I can t recall the exact year, but if someone has that handy, it
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                    1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies' "God's
                                    Playground" (volume 1). I can't recall the exact year, but if
                                    someone has that handy, it should have the answer.

                                    2) I don't follow your question.

                                    Ron
                                  • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                    ... The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr Górecki. I am hoping to have a review for it
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                      > My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                      > medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                      > relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                      The book to check out for this is:
                                      _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                      Górecki.

                                      I am hoping to have a review for it for the Spring 2004 Slovo

                                      > 2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                      > 1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                      > what language were they from?

                                      Since Polish was not a written language early in period, there is some
                                      question about the spelling of place names; in some documents they were
                                      Latinized. But in general place names were taken from the Polish language
                                      and just written down in Latin characters.

                                      -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                      "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                      can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                      -- Margaret Mead
                                    • MoxFool@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                        In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                        jenne@... writes:
                                        The book to check out for this is:
                                        _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                        Górecki.

                                        Witam, Czesc Panstvo!

                                        Is this in English or Polish?

                                        Dziekuje!
                                        Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                        Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                        Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                        Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                        Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                        ... English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                          > jenne@... writes:
                                          > The book to check out for this is:
                                          > _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                          > Górecki.
                                          >
                                          > Witam, Czesc Panstvo!
                                          >
                                          > Is this in English or Polish?
                                          >

                                          English! :)

                                          -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                          "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                          can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                          -- Margaret Mead
                                        • MoxFool@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 13, 2004
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                                            In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                            jenne@... writes:
                                            English! :)

                                            -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                            "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                            can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                            -- Margaret Mead
                                            Great! Hello, inter-library loan!

                                            Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                            Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                            Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                            Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                            Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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