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So how do we dig?(was LONG Re: (Despina) Clothing in the Court of Dracula LONG)

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  • sismith42
    Despina: But the evidence is there... you just haven t dug far enough to find it yet. *snip* Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
    Message 1 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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      "Despina:
      But the evidence is there... you just haven't dug far enough to find
      it yet.

      *snip*

      Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
      European fashions rather than those fashions of the West."

      Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
      I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
      you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

      1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my uni's
      library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
      you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
      that may not be obvious?
      2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
      history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
      freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop an
      understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
      when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
      hints would be greatly appreciated...

      2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
      the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
      radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
      late-ish 14th?

      Many thanks, and my appologies if this sounds more like a whinge
      on "research is hard", as it's meant to be a "please clue me into
      directions to look"!

      Cheers, Stefania
    • Alexandreina Dragos
      ... good place ... Monday - ... work. ... sources in ... said that ... minds ... I would indeed be very grateful if you would cite your sources. I will be
      Message 2 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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        > Despina:
        > Again, look up the monasteries, you'll see the frescos. It's a
        good place
        > to begin. I won't be able to send information on the book until
        Monday -
        > since I'm at work and it's at home and I haven't the information at
        work.
        >
        > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are the
        sources in
        > your bibliography? I saw no citations within the article and you
        said that
        > you need to add the bibliography - to take your line, "Inquiring
        minds
        > wanna know!".
        >
        > Cu Drag,
        > Domina Despina ot Brasov
        >
        >
        I would indeed be very grateful if you would cite your sources. I
        will be glad to share what I have as well once I get home.
        Reina
      • abbondanza
        I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being produced, scadian or mundane/professional? Antoinette B.S. in Art History ...
        Message 3 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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          I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
          produced, scadian or mundane/professional?

          Antoinette
          B.S. in Art History

          > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
          > the sources in your bibliography?

          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
          http://search.yahoo.com
        • aheilvei
          ... Lovely. I d like to know what you ve got. As I said, I m at work and my books are at home so I can t post what I have until Monday.... I know it was at
          Message 4 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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            > I would indeed be very grateful if you would cite your sources. I
            > will be glad to share what I have as well once I get home.
            > Reina

            Lovely. I'd like to know what you've got. As I said, I'm at work
            and my books are at home so I can't post what I have until
            Monday....

            I know it was at the end of a long post but, for what is this
            article? Just wondering.

            Cu Drag,
            Domina Despina ot Brasov
          • Alexandreina Dragos
            ... Whoops! Knew there was something else! It s just for a local e- group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer historical re-creation
            Message 5 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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              > I know it was at the end of a long post but, for what is this
              > article? Just wondering.
              >
              > Cu Drag,
              > Domina Despina ot Brasov

              Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
              group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
              historical re-creation group. About a half dozen or so of us are
              interested in Dracula's reign and have based our personas on his
              court. Being the biggest costuming junkie among uo it's fallen to me
              to do the garb research. LOL Once it's finally finished I'll
              probably also post it to the Abput Dracula and Vlad Tepes lists. I'm
              currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see what
              she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month. I'll
              be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!
              Regards,
              Reina
            • aheilvei
              ... Realms of Avalon? The role playing group? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm About a half dozen or so of us are ... me to
              Message 6 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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                > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
                > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
                > historical re-creation group.

                Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
                http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

                About a half dozen or so of us are
                > interested in Dracula's reign and have based our personas on his
                > court. Being the biggest costuming junkie among uo it's fallen to
                me to do the garb research. LOL Once it's finally finished I'll
                > probably also post it to the Abput Dracula and Vlad Tepes lists.

                Any particular reason for the interest in Vlad's era of reign, other
                than the gothic novel? Stepan cel Mere was a tremendously
                interesting ruler, as was Radu the Great and Mattias Corvinias.....

                I'm
                > currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see what
                > she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month.
                I'll be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!

                I appreciate the offer of sharing. Dr. Miller is a wonderful
                scholar, having done a lot of research on the gothic novel, with her
                interest mostly centered around the fictional Dracula and the
                superstition of vampires and the like. She's highly respected in
                the English literature commuinty, I'm sure information that she has
                to pass along is certainly worthwhile.

                Cu Drag,
                Domina Despina ot Brasov
              • Alexandreina Dragos
                ... Ummmm...no. LOL The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on historical accuracy
                Message 7 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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                  >
                  > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
                  > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

                  Ummmm...no. LOL The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
                  from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
                  historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.


                  > Any particular reason for the interest in Vlad's era of reign,
                  other
                  > than the gothic novel? Stepan cel Mere was a tremendously
                  > interesting ruler, as was Radu the Great and Mattias Corvinias.....

                  Oh admittedly there were certainly nicer and perhaps "better" rulers
                  to live under but Dracula is just fascinating (as a psychological
                  study if nothing else) and since we don't REALLY live under his rule
                  it's fun to play at it. I was fascinated by him as a child as soon
                  as I found out (around age 10) that there was a REAL Dracula. Yes,
                  I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                  actual vampire lore from all over the world. And naturally there's
                  lots of vampire jokes among our crowd. But our aim is indeed to
                  portray people from the historical Dracula's court, not the fanciful
                  vampire count cooked up by Stoker. You'll never catch me at an SCA
                  event wearing my fangs or weird contacts, I promise! :)

                  >
                  > I'm
                  > > currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see
                  what
                  > > she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month.
                  > I'll be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!
                  >
                  > I appreciate the offer of sharing. Dr. Miller is a wonderful
                  > scholar, having done a lot of research on the gothic novel, with
                  her
                  > interest mostly centered around the fictional Dracula and the
                  > superstition of vampires and the like. She's highly respected in
                  > the English literature commuinty, I'm sure information that she has
                  > to pass along is certainly worthwhile.
                  >
                  > Cu Drag,
                  > Domina Despina ot Brasov

                  Well no kidding! She's no slouch when it comes to the historical
                  Dracula as well and is just a really neat lady.
                  Regards,
                  Reina
                • Farkas Istvan
                  The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at http://www.realmsofavalon.org/ It is a new group but is growing. Istvan
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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                    The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at

                    http://www.realmsofavalon.org/

                    It is a new group but is growing.

                    Istvan

                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
                    > > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
                    > > historical re-creation group.
                    >
                    > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
                    > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm
                  • Jeanne Papanastasiou
                    I m also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying actual vampire lore from all over the world. I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 2, 2003
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                      I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                      actual vampire lore from all over the world.

                      I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the Vampire's
                      ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as Buffy
                      (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His brother
                      went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best friend went
                      as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely 5 feet
                      tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).

                      After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks we got.
                      But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne, yes a
                      throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included male
                      castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                      So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New Orleans.

                      And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                      experience!

                      Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                      http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                      Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                      three fleur-de-lys Or




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • aheilvei
                      The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group ... Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical accuracy and education, despite
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 3, 2003
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                        The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
                        > from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
                        > historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.

                        Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical
                        accuracy and education, despite what you seem to think. A large
                        number of SCA members are professional historians, lecturers,
                        factual authors, hold PhD's and Masters degrees in history, and are
                        professors at major universities. Many of those transfer their
                        modern love of history into their SCA life and use it to further
                        research and educate others. (Otherwise, why would you come to us
                        for help in your research?)

                        So stating that the SCA isn't educationally based or that it's
                        members aren't interested in historical accuracy is unrealistic and
                        untrue. Don't get me wrong, there are a large number of members who
                        prefer to party and 'dress up'. But please don't lump the entire
                        SCA into that group. The SCA has come a long way in the nearly 40
                        years of it's exsistance and is continuting to make headway.

                        Those who portray Slavic personae, in general, are among some of the
                        more scholarly of the SCA. In part, because the sources can be rare
                        and difficult to find many who want to just party are turned off by
                        the amount of research needed to portray a Slavic persona.

                        Cu Drag,
                        Domina Despina ot Brasov
                      • aheilvei
                        Hi, I m trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as I ve found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if you could expand upon your
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 5, 2003
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                          Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                          I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                          you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                          Despina:
                          Thanks for pointing out the hole I dug, Stephania! *grin*
                          I'll start by saying I know nothing from Polish and research can be
                          very difficult.

                          Stephania:
                          1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my
                          uni's
                          library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
                          you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
                          that may not be obvious?

                          Despina:
                          Google and other search engines are a good start.

                          Many monasteries have museums within them or they preserve artifacts
                          left in their keeping. Contacting the monasteries directly, once
                          you have a basic idea of what they might have in their care, is
                          another way to go.

                          Find out if your university has a Slavic or Near Eastern division –
                          if so, go and explore it for a day or five. *grin* If not, figure
                          out where the books you would be interested in fall in the Dewey
                          Decimal System (or whatever shelving system your library uses) and
                          camp out in that section for a day or six. Pick up the books and
                          look through them, even if they are in languages you aren't familiar
                          with….

                          Get a dictionary to/for that language and English and memorize terms
                          that will help you when looking through those books. If it hasn't
                          any pictures but when looking at the index you see the word
                          for "costume" and "medieval" and "warfare" and whatever else you're
                          interested in, it might be worth your while to try translating those
                          chapters. Search for books with those words in the titles.

                          Interlibrary Loan is your friend. Some libraries charge a nominal
                          fee for this service, but it's generally worth it (most university
                          libraries don't charge for it, as it's built into the student's
                          fees). Search the bibliography of the books you have – translate
                          the ones you can't read. See if certain author's names turn up
                          consistently within your area of study and do a search on that
                          author. See if your local university has lending agreements with
                          other organizations and groups and search those library listings as
                          well.

                          As for keywords that might not be obvious, I'd say again, consult a
                          two language dictionary and go for it. You'd be amazed at what
                          you'll find on websites done in a country's native language – many
                          of which don't have online translators attached to them so searching
                          for that word in English won't pop up the information, even though
                          it's out there and easily accessible.

                          Search the museums that might not be obvious to you. As mentioned
                          in the earlier thread, the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Met, the
                          National Gallery in Washington DC. Find out what museums in your
                          area have online collections. Look through art books that cover the
                          centuries you want and then ask museum personel if they know
                          where "Cool Guy on a Horse" painted by Great Artist, a Saxon in the
                          year 1398 is currently located. The more specific you can be with
                          your questions to museums, the better the answers you will recieve
                          from them.

                          Stephania:
                          2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
                          history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
                          freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop
                          an
                          understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
                          when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
                          hints would be greatly appreciated...

                          Despina:
                          Make sure that the history you're reading isn't biased too heavily
                          toward any given side. Reading multiple histories of a region is
                          best, when possible. This gives you multiple points of view and
                          allows you to sort through the dreck and find the kernels of truth
                          in each to put together what you believe (and can support) to be a
                          cohesive restructuring of the actual history. This can be
                          especially difficult with the countries that were formerly behind
                          the "Iron Curtain", due to restrictions on publications and
                          censorship.

                          That being said, how many times was the country over run by Group X?
                          For how many years were they occupied by Group X? Any ideas as to
                          how many of Group X stayed in the area after the invasion? The lower
                          those numbers, the less impact on the locals that group was likely
                          to have had.

                          Is the country (or better yet, the city) which you're investigating
                          on a trade route? Was the trade route major or minor? Did it serve
                          for several countries or just for the immediate area?

                          Is the country (or city) the site of a major religious `thing'? Be
                          that a cathedral, a vision, a shrine, a piece of the cross, a
                          monastery, a major church, the only church for 100 miles, or some
                          other such? If so, it might have been a pilgrimage place and the
                          citizens would have seen people coming from far away, wearing and
                          carrying (and eating) goodness only knows what – investigate those
                          pilgrims and the places from which they came.

                          Who did your rulers marry? From whence came the brides and grooms?
                          Grooms can have more of an impact on the society than brides –
                          depending, of course, on the layer of society into which they marry
                          and their ability to `keep' their wife. Philip II of Spain certainly
                          didn't have the sway over Mary of England that he would have liked.
                          Either way (bride or groom) the incoming half of the marriage would
                          most certainly have brought their own servants, clothing, sense of
                          style and taste; how much impact that taste had on the society into
                          which that person was thrust is a matter for investigation.

                          Stephania:
                          2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
                          the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
                          radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
                          late-ish 14th?

                          Despina:
                          I'm most comfortable within 50 years of the date one wants to
                          represent. That's 50 years before or behind; other people have other
                          fields of comfort for this. Again, looking at the cultures
                          surrounding your area of interest, and the cultures with which yours
                          had major contact is going to give you a lot of information on which
                          to make solid educated guesses. Usually when focusing to either side
                          of a date, one can find a few pieces and clues to either side,
                          making hypothesis easier.

                          By narrowing the focus to a single date, one has put on blinders and
                          will often miss small but very helpful clues. No person ever
                          arrived fully formed, aged 26 in the year 1539, complete with
                          clothing, food, armor, education, and background in his home. Just
                          as now, that person who was 26 in 1539 became who he was through the
                          years that he had lived up to 1539. So while it might not be
                          fashionable to have a Majolica compote in oranges and yellows any
                          longer, it might be what he's got on which to serve fruits to his
                          guests so he'll use it.

                          By focusing within 50 years to either side, you give yourself leeway
                          and the ability to look at more sources, which lead to more sources,
                          which lead…. And before you realize it, you'll be able to paint a
                          fairly accurate picture of a pretty tight time.... (of course, this
                          could be years, not months)

                          Also keep in mind if your geographic area (city or village) is close
                          to a major hub or out in the boonies. Those in the boonies are
                          going to be wearing last decade's fashions rather than just last
                          year's. Many people forget the length of time it could take for a
                          fashion change to reach some areas in that time period.

                          Long winded, but I hope it helps.

                          Smiles,
                          Despina
                        • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                          ... I ve got a list of some books here: http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 5, 2003
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                            > Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                            > I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                            > you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                            I've got a list of some books here:
                            http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html

                            Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                            more material I have on hand? THanks!

                            -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                            "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                            tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                            -- L.B. Johnson
                          • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                            By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone feels like looking at it and jumping in. ... -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 5, 2003
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                              By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone
                              feels like looking at it and jumping in.

                              > I've got a list of some books here:
                              > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                              >
                              > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                              > more material I have on hand? THanks!
                              >
                              > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                              > "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                              > tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                              > -- L.B. Johnson
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                              "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                              tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                              -- L.B. Johnson
                            • sismith42
                              ... with ... Hi Jadwiga, Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it before, but didn t remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                                > I've got a list of some books here:
                                > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                                >
                                > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                                with
                                > more material I have on hand? THanks!

                                Hi Jadwiga,
                                Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it
                                before, but didn't remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                                wanted poking about updating...? ;-)

                                Stefania
                              • Alexandreina Dragos
                                ... As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon. There are a few of us very
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                                  --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, abbondanza <delacroi29@y...> wrote:
                                  > I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
                                  > produced, scadian or mundane/professional?
                                  >
                                  > Antoinette
                                  > B.S. in Art History
                                  >
                                  > > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
                                  > > the sources in your bibliography?
                                  >
                                  As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online
                                  newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon.
                                  There are a few of us very interested in Vlad's reign and who have
                                  chosen our personas from there so we're doing our best to figure out
                                  the clothes.
                                  Reina
                                • Alexandreina Dragos
                                  ... Vampire s ... Buffy ... brother ... friend went ... 5 feet ... we got. LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball attendees I ve spoken
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jeanne Papanastasiou" <jeanne@a...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                                    > actual vampire lore from all over the world.
                                    >
                                    > I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the
                                    Vampire's
                                    > ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as
                                    Buffy
                                    > (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His
                                    brother
                                    > went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best
                                    friend went
                                    > as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely
                                    5 feet
                                    > tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).
                                    >
                                    > After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks
                                    we got.

                                    LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball
                                    attendees I've spoken with in the past it's very much an "Anne Rice
                                    Universe ONLY" at these things.

                                    > But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne,
                                    yes a
                                    > throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included
                                    male
                                    > castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                                    Oh my! Yeah, I DO like her writing (well most of it but this
                                    certainly isn't the list to expound upon my theories on Lestat or
                                    explain why I like Louis better)but I've never had the sense that
                                    she's someone I'd like to hang out with. And I'm not even a guy! LOL

                                    >
                                    > So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New
                                    Orleans.

                                    Oh envy envy envy! I soooooo wanna go to New Orleans! And to LARP
                                    VtM there! What fun!

                                    >
                                    > And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                                    > experience!

                                    I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                                    Regards,
                                    Reina
                                  • Jeanne Papanastasiou
                                    [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 6, 2003
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                                      [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I mean it. --Yana, moderator]





                                      ask me off list!

                                      Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                                      http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                                      Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                                      three fleur-de-lys Or

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: Alexandreina Dragos [mailto:lamiastrix@...]

                                      I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                                      Regards,
                                      Reina
                                    • viola_de_lessops
                                      Hello: I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to everyone in hope
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 11, 2004
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                                        Hello:

                                        I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests
                                        lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to
                                        everyone in hope that someone will know answers.

                                        My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                        medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                        relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                        2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                        1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                        what language were they from?

                                        Thank you very much. Any help is much appreciated.

                                        Johanna
                                      • Ron Jachim
                                        1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies God s Playground (volume 1). I can t recall the exact year, but if someone has that handy, it
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                          1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies' "God's
                                          Playground" (volume 1). I can't recall the exact year, but if
                                          someone has that handy, it should have the answer.

                                          2) I don't follow your question.

                                          Ron
                                        • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                          ... The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr Górecki. I am hoping to have a review for it
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                            > My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                            > medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                            > relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                            The book to check out for this is:
                                            _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                            Górecki.

                                            I am hoping to have a review for it for the Spring 2004 Slovo

                                            > 2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                            > 1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                            > what language were they from?

                                            Since Polish was not a written language early in period, there is some
                                            question about the spelling of place names; in some documents they were
                                            Latinized. But in general place names were taken from the Polish language
                                            and just written down in Latin characters.

                                            -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                            "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                            can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                            -- Margaret Mead
                                          • MoxFool@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                              In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                              jenne@... writes:
                                              The book to check out for this is:
                                              _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                              Górecki.

                                              Witam, Czesc Panstvo!

                                              Is this in English or Polish?

                                              Dziekuje!
                                              Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                              Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                              Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                              Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                              Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                              ... English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                                > jenne@... writes:
                                                > The book to check out for this is:
                                                > _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                                > Górecki.
                                                >
                                                > Witam, Czesc Panstvo!
                                                >
                                                > Is this in English or Polish?
                                                >

                                                English! :)

                                                -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                                can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                                -- Margaret Mead
                                              • MoxFool@aol.com
                                                In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 13, 2004
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                                                  In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                  jenne@... writes:
                                                  English! :)

                                                  -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                  "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                                  can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                                  -- Margaret Mead
                                                  Great! Hello, inter-library loan!

                                                  Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                                  Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                                  Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                                  Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                                  Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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