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LONG Re: (Despina) Clothing in the Court of Dracula LONG

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  • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
    Despina: Vlad was, as a child, taken as a royal hostage by the Turks in order that his father, the ruler of Wallachia at the time, would work for/with the
    Message 1 of 24 , May 2 9:44 AM
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      Despina:
      Vlad was, as a child, taken as a royal hostage by the Turks in
      order that his father, the ruler of Wallachia at the time, would work
      for/with
      the Turks in manners they approved. Thus, his influences from a very
      young age are from the Ottomans.

      Reina:
      Yes, I am very aware of that.

      Despina:
      But you don't say anything about it in your paper, making some of your
      summations appear from thin air and giving no acknowledgement to the
      history that *is* known about Vlad.

      Reina:
      Indeed. I go back and forth on this a lot. He was raised for many
      years among the Turks so certainly they influenced him in many
      regards. However, he also hated them and fought against them all his
      life so the question is always; Did he adopt their fashions because
      they were comfprtable and familiar or did he reject them utterly
      because he hated them?

      Despina:
      Anything you say on this aspect (his adopting or rejecting the Ottoman
      fashion), without historical back up is speculation. Your wordings are
      rather final rather than stating that you are speculating. Without
      portraits and such, it is very difficult to say definitively what anyone,
      anywhere, in any time period wore or how they wore it.

      Reina:
      This is true however Beatrix DID have a good deal of influence on the
      fashions of the Hungarian court. The paintings and busts I have seen
      that date from after her marriage to Matthius show a VERY Italian
      influence. However, again, this is moot as it's past the period I'm
      looking into.

      Despina:
      As a moot point, I wouldn't feature it in an article then.

      Despina:
      > Pictures, hangings, fresco paintings, and embroideries of women
      (granted, wives of the rulers) usually depict them in garments similar to
      those of their male counterparts.

      Reina:
      PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE point me to these references. My searches
      have been VERY frustrating. If I could SEE these pics, hangings,
      frescoes and embroideries of Eastern Europe of the 1450s and 1460s
      you speak of it would go a LONG way towards helping me.

      Despina:
      Being able to see those things for myself would help my research greatly as
      well, but I don't have the money for the plane ticket to get to Romania and
      back. I've been working on Rumanian history and garments in the SCA time
      period for six years. It's not easy to find sources. It's a royal pain.
      The people at the embassies don't seem to want to mail me (or my husband)
      back on questions of history and culture. My time frame begins shortly
      before Neagoe Basarab and ends after him - he ruled from 1512-1521 in
      Wallachia. Extrapolating his clothing to your time frame is not much of a
      great leap - though it is a leap that would need justification and some
      firm evidence. I never in my email said that I have stuff from your time
      period, I said that you might need to extrapolate from the stuff slightly
      later than the time frame in which you wish to work.

      I highly suggest doing searches for the Rumanian monasteries, as they have
      frescos on them.
      All that have online access to pictures of them were built post the time
      frame you wish, but again, under 100 years later. Arbore, for instance was
      built in 1502. Putna was built earlier, being consecrated in 1470 and,
      while none of it's frescos remain, it does have an extensive museum
      attached to it with clothing, tapestries, and embroideries... not that
      anyone there has ever written me back either.

      Despina:
      Long overgowns (kaftans) with buttons or closures
      > up the front, sometimes also on the sleeves. The garments under
      this are mostly speculation as, again, finds for those are very limited. A
      singular garment that looks similar to a modern sundress with its fitted
      bodice attached to a very full skirt, the bodice having six buttons in the
      front has been found, but it is the only one of it's kind of which I know

      Reina:
      Do you have an aproximate date for this garment? And a location???

      Despina:
      The book's at home. I'm at the office. All I can tell you at the moment
      is that it's in the SCA period.

      Despina:
      (this is the only garment to give any credence to your #4 point of women
      in Wallachia wearing kirtles similar what all other women,
      particularly the German women, were wearing in Western Europe at this
      time). It is
      > speculated that under this garment would have been something akin
      to the 'shift' or 'chemise' and over it would have been worn a more ornate
      > 'kaftan' with it's closures in front and either long hanging
      sleeves (slitted at the elbow for the arm to go through)or short sleeves,
      curved at the inner portion of the elbow to allow better movement. Under the
      second type of kaftan is usually seen (on the arms) a garment that buttons
      at the wrist, or from the wrist to nearly the elbow - also usually in an
      ornate fabric. Sometimes the outermost kaftan is lined with fur,
      occasionally it is not.

      Reina:
      Again, if you can tell me where you get this information it would be
      DEEPLY appreciated!

      Despina:
      Most of it is extrapolation from frescos, portraits, and embroideries of
      the time period or information from grave digs. Again, the book with
      pictures and grave dig information is at home, I'm at work - the
      monasteries with the frescos are online - use google, it's great.

      Despina:
      > The houppeland and the kaftan have many major differences in
      construction, fit, and look. The fashions of Eastern Europe were commented
      on by
      > travelers as being different. When Hungarians visited the courts
      of Western Europe as late as the 16th century, their different mode of
      dress was noted by those who saw them. You're making the dangerous
      assumption that everyone wore the same thing in the East and West at this time.

      Reina:
      No, not exactly. In fact I am trying to pin down what the
      differences were. Was Eastern Europe more influenced by the Middle
      East or by Central European fashions? Were they wearing something
      altogether different from either area? Inquiring minds wanna know!
      Yes, I am certain there are many differences in construction between
      the houppelande and the kaftan. I've made both. But both are full,
      long, voluminous garments that, though worn differently, have the
      same general appearance. So which was being worn in Dracula's court?
      Without concrete evidence both seem equally likely to me.

      Despina:
      But the evidence is there... you just haven't dug far enough to find it
      yet. Personally, I don't find the similarities between a kaftan and a
      houppeland to be that many. The sleeves, as a major point point are quite
      different and I've never seen dagging on a kaftan. My opinion, take it for
      what it's worth, is that in equating the houppeland and the kaftan is going
      to confuse those people who would be reading your article, taking it as the
      gospel truth, and we'll wind up with some sort of hybrid, only seen in the
      SCA, garment that has no basis in historical fact.

      Based on the scant evidence of garments that does exist, as well as the
      constant advance and retreat of the Ottomans and the requirements for
      tribute and noble prisoners to the Ottomans through the time frame at which
      you are looking, it is, IMO, far more likely that the Wallachians were
      wearing garments that more closely resembled those of the Ottomans than
      those of Western Europe. Also, pure geography would make them more inclined
      toward Eastern European fashions rather than those fashions of the West.

      Despina:
      > As to the fabrics of the area, it is good to remember that portions
      of Wallachia were along major trading routes between the East and
      West. With the constant wars and change of rulers and the traveling
      merchants,
      it is likely that the fabrics used would more likely have been silks,
      wools, and furs, due to the ease of procurement for these things in such a
      region, as well as for warmth in the cool castles and harsh winters of the
      Carpathian Mountains. Linen certainly would have also been used, but probably
      more for the lower classes and for garments close to the skin. Many of the
      fabrics depicted in art and from grave digs are very similar to those of
      the Ottomans.

      Reina:
      Yes and I belive I touched on that. Perhaps I should add more detail.

      Despina:
      Not that I noticed. If you want it in there, you need to put it in there.
      More detail would be good.

      Despina:
      Cotton would have most certainly been rare to nearly non-existent
      > in Wallachia, as it was throughout Europe for the purpose of
      clothing.

      Reina:
      Yep, touched on that too.

      Despina:
      The manner in which you touched on it made it sound as if it were used...
      this would cause some people who have a passing interest in the region and
      time to point to your article as justification to use cotton in all of
      their garments, citing you as the source that 'said they did'.

      Despina:
      Their (Saxon)
      > influence on the ruling class of Wallachia's clothing seems to have
      been
      > minimal from what we have of grave digs, portraits, and frescoes
      left on
      > walls through the region.

      Reina:
      So can you expand on the more obvious differences? Are there online
      pics of these portraits and frescoes you refer to?

      Despina:
      Yes, do a search for Rumanian frescos or Rumanian monasteries... not difficult.


      Despina:
      > As for the headwear of the women, most depictions of them (again,
      usually wives of rulers) show high crowns worn with veils underneath. Hair
      is not seen. There are also pictures of some wider brimmed hat sorts of
      things (similar to a Saxon style but lacking the feathers) and some with
      coif type hats under the wide brimmed hats - those I have only as re-drawings
      I think, so I'm not as sure of them as the crown with veil.

      Reina:
      Even that would be nice to see!

      Despina:
      Again, I'm at work, the book's at home.


      Despina:
      Viewing the frescos and portraits, the styles
      of headwear for men can be quite varied and the style in which Vlad is
      most frequently shown (most publications use the same portrait of him)
      is most certainly not the only style worn by men of the region. Judging the
      manner in which men of an entire region based on the portraits of a single
      man of that time and region is also not recommended.
      It would be similar to saying that all men in Hollywood in the 1970's were
      bald based on a
      picture of Cojack. One can ascertain how that man dressed his hair, but not
      how his compatriots would have done.

      Reina:
      Of course there were other styles and I would certainly not dispute
      that. But also it is common to emulate your ruler.

      Despina:
      Your paper draws the reader to the assumption that since Vlad wore his hair
      'this way' that was how all of the men in the country wore theirs; and that
      he wore "this hat" and so did every other male in the country. I think you
      need to be more clear on what you're saying rather than just trying to say it.


      Despina:
      > Evidence for the time frame in which you are choosing to work is
      very scarce and the publications one finds must be viewed with
      tremendous scrutiny due to political leanings of authors and the fondness that
      > Rumanians seem to have for burning their past and beginning again.
      However, from written accounts of those who entertained dignitaries,
      frescos, embroideries, grave finds, and portraits all
      of the years shortly following (50 years or so) those you choose to study,
      some extrapolations can be made which fall more in line with the
      thinking that Wallachians and Eastern Europeans in general dressed much
      differently from Western Europe.

      Reina:
      Thank you very much for your observations and help. Please help me
      even more by letting me know where you get your references from that
      I may find and study them myself. Alas, otherwise they are not of
      much use to me.

      Despina:
      Again, look up the monasteries, you'll see the frescos. It's a good place
      to begin. I won't be able to send information on the book until Monday -
      since I'm at work and it's at home and I haven't the information at work.

      BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are the sources in
      your bibliography? I saw no citations within the article and you said that
      you need to add the bibliography - to take your line, "Inquiring minds
      wanna know!".

      Cu Drag,
      Domina Despina ot Brasov


      ----------
      "Re-creation necessarily implies research before the craftwork
      starts. If you haven't done the research, you can create, but you
      cannot possibly RE-create." [Arval d'Espas Nord]


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    • sismith42
      Despina: But the evidence is there... you just haven t dug far enough to find it yet. *snip* Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
      Message 2 of 24 , May 2 10:15 AM
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        "Despina:
        But the evidence is there... you just haven't dug far enough to find
        it yet.

        *snip*

        Also, pure geography would make them more inclined toward Eastern
        European fashions rather than those fashions of the West."

        Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
        I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
        you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

        1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my uni's
        library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
        you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
        that may not be obvious?
        2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
        history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
        freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop an
        understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
        when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
        hints would be greatly appreciated...

        2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
        the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
        radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
        late-ish 14th?

        Many thanks, and my appologies if this sounds more like a whinge
        on "research is hard", as it's meant to be a "please clue me into
        directions to look"!

        Cheers, Stefania
      • Alexandreina Dragos
        ... good place ... Monday - ... work. ... sources in ... said that ... minds ... I would indeed be very grateful if you would cite your sources. I will be
        Message 3 of 24 , May 2 11:50 AM
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          > Despina:
          > Again, look up the monasteries, you'll see the frescos. It's a
          good place
          > to begin. I won't be able to send information on the book until
          Monday -
          > since I'm at work and it's at home and I haven't the information at
          work.
          >
          > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are the
          sources in
          > your bibliography? I saw no citations within the article and you
          said that
          > you need to add the bibliography - to take your line, "Inquiring
          minds
          > wanna know!".
          >
          > Cu Drag,
          > Domina Despina ot Brasov
          >
          >
          I would indeed be very grateful if you would cite your sources. I
          will be glad to share what I have as well once I get home.
          Reina
        • abbondanza
          I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being produced, scadian or mundane/professional? Antoinette B.S. in Art History ...
          Message 4 of 24 , May 2 12:29 PM
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            I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
            produced, scadian or mundane/professional?

            Antoinette
            B.S. in Art History

            > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
            > the sources in your bibliography?

            __________________________________
            Do you Yahoo!?
            The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
            http://search.yahoo.com
          • aheilvei
            ... Lovely. I d like to know what you ve got. As I said, I m at work and my books are at home so I can t post what I have until Monday.... I know it was at
            Message 5 of 24 , May 2 12:42 PM
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              > I would indeed be very grateful if you would cite your sources. I
              > will be glad to share what I have as well once I get home.
              > Reina

              Lovely. I'd like to know what you've got. As I said, I'm at work
              and my books are at home so I can't post what I have until
              Monday....

              I know it was at the end of a long post but, for what is this
              article? Just wondering.

              Cu Drag,
              Domina Despina ot Brasov
            • Alexandreina Dragos
              ... Whoops! Knew there was something else! It s just for a local e- group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer historical re-creation
              Message 6 of 24 , May 2 12:52 PM
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                > I know it was at the end of a long post but, for what is this
                > article? Just wondering.
                >
                > Cu Drag,
                > Domina Despina ot Brasov

                Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
                group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
                historical re-creation group. About a half dozen or so of us are
                interested in Dracula's reign and have based our personas on his
                court. Being the biggest costuming junkie among uo it's fallen to me
                to do the garb research. LOL Once it's finally finished I'll
                probably also post it to the Abput Dracula and Vlad Tepes lists. I'm
                currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see what
                she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month. I'll
                be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!
                Regards,
                Reina
              • aheilvei
                ... Realms of Avalon? The role playing group? http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm About a half dozen or so of us are ... me to
                Message 7 of 24 , May 2 1:48 PM
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                  > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
                  > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
                  > historical re-creation group.

                  Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
                  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

                  About a half dozen or so of us are
                  > interested in Dracula's reign and have based our personas on his
                  > court. Being the biggest costuming junkie among uo it's fallen to
                  me to do the garb research. LOL Once it's finally finished I'll
                  > probably also post it to the Abput Dracula and Vlad Tepes lists.

                  Any particular reason for the interest in Vlad's era of reign, other
                  than the gothic novel? Stepan cel Mere was a tremendously
                  interesting ruler, as was Radu the Great and Mattias Corvinias.....

                  I'm
                  > currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see what
                  > she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month.
                  I'll be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!

                  I appreciate the offer of sharing. Dr. Miller is a wonderful
                  scholar, having done a lot of research on the gothic novel, with her
                  interest mostly centered around the fictional Dracula and the
                  superstition of vampires and the like. She's highly respected in
                  the English literature commuinty, I'm sure information that she has
                  to pass along is certainly worthwhile.

                  Cu Drag,
                  Domina Despina ot Brasov
                • Alexandreina Dragos
                  ... Ummmm...no. LOL The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on historical accuracy
                  Message 8 of 24 , May 2 2:07 PM
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                    >
                    > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
                    > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm

                    Ummmm...no. LOL The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
                    from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
                    historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.


                    > Any particular reason for the interest in Vlad's era of reign,
                    other
                    > than the gothic novel? Stepan cel Mere was a tremendously
                    > interesting ruler, as was Radu the Great and Mattias Corvinias.....

                    Oh admittedly there were certainly nicer and perhaps "better" rulers
                    to live under but Dracula is just fascinating (as a psychological
                    study if nothing else) and since we don't REALLY live under his rule
                    it's fun to play at it. I was fascinated by him as a child as soon
                    as I found out (around age 10) that there was a REAL Dracula. Yes,
                    I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                    actual vampire lore from all over the world. And naturally there's
                    lots of vampire jokes among our crowd. But our aim is indeed to
                    portray people from the historical Dracula's court, not the fanciful
                    vampire count cooked up by Stoker. You'll never catch me at an SCA
                    event wearing my fangs or weird contacts, I promise! :)

                    >
                    > I'm
                    > > currently begging Elizabeth Miller (a Dracula scholar) to see
                    what
                    > > she can dig up for me on her trip to Romania later this month.
                    > I'll be sure to share any goodies I get here as well of course!
                    >
                    > I appreciate the offer of sharing. Dr. Miller is a wonderful
                    > scholar, having done a lot of research on the gothic novel, with
                    her
                    > interest mostly centered around the fictional Dracula and the
                    > superstition of vampires and the like. She's highly respected in
                    > the English literature commuinty, I'm sure information that she has
                    > to pass along is certainly worthwhile.
                    >
                    > Cu Drag,
                    > Domina Despina ot Brasov

                    Well no kidding! She's no slouch when it comes to the historical
                    Dracula as well and is just a really neat lady.
                    Regards,
                    Reina
                  • Farkas Istvan
                    The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at http://www.realmsofavalon.org/ It is a new group but is growing. Istvan
                    Message 9 of 24 , May 2 6:09 PM
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                      The Realms of Avalon web site can be found at

                      http://www.realmsofavalon.org/

                      It is a new group but is growing.

                      Istvan

                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "aheilvei" <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > Whoops! Knew there was something else! It's just for a local e-
                      > > group newsletter for a subdivision of Realms of Avalon, a newer
                      > > historical re-creation group.
                      >
                      > Realms of Avalon? The role playing group?
                      > http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4548/Arcane/Arcintro.htm
                    • Jeanne Papanastasiou
                      I m also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying actual vampire lore from all over the world. I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had
                      Message 10 of 24 , May 2 9:44 PM
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                        I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                        actual vampire lore from all over the world.

                        I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the Vampire's
                        ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as Buffy
                        (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His brother
                        went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best friend went
                        as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely 5 feet
                        tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).

                        After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks we got.
                        But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne, yes a
                        throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included male
                        castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                        So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New Orleans.

                        And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                        experience!

                        Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                        http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                        Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                        three fleur-de-lys Or




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • aheilvei
                        The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group ... Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical accuracy and education, despite
                        Message 11 of 24 , May 3 5:26 PM
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                          The Realms of Avalon I refer to is a splinter group
                          > from Empire of Adria. So, SCA-like but a little more focused on
                          > historical accuracy and education despite the fanciful name.

                          Actually, there are many of us in the SCA who do focus on historical
                          accuracy and education, despite what you seem to think. A large
                          number of SCA members are professional historians, lecturers,
                          factual authors, hold PhD's and Masters degrees in history, and are
                          professors at major universities. Many of those transfer their
                          modern love of history into their SCA life and use it to further
                          research and educate others. (Otherwise, why would you come to us
                          for help in your research?)

                          So stating that the SCA isn't educationally based or that it's
                          members aren't interested in historical accuracy is unrealistic and
                          untrue. Don't get me wrong, there are a large number of members who
                          prefer to party and 'dress up'. But please don't lump the entire
                          SCA into that group. The SCA has come a long way in the nearly 40
                          years of it's exsistance and is continuting to make headway.

                          Those who portray Slavic personae, in general, are among some of the
                          more scholarly of the SCA. In part, because the sources can be rare
                          and difficult to find many who want to just party are turned off by
                          the amount of research needed to portray a Slavic persona.

                          Cu Drag,
                          Domina Despina ot Brasov
                        • aheilvei
                          Hi, I m trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as I ve found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if you could expand upon your
                          Message 12 of 24 , May 5 10:25 AM
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                            Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                            I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                            you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                            Despina:
                            Thanks for pointing out the hole I dug, Stephania! *grin*
                            I'll start by saying I know nothing from Polish and research can be
                            very difficult.

                            Stephania:
                            1)Where? I know Google, when I'm *really* motivated, there's my
                            uni's
                            library, and have just learned about the monistary frescos (thank
                            you!)... so where else to search? Any suggsted keywords to look for
                            that may not be obvious?

                            Despina:
                            Google and other search engines are a good start.

                            Many monasteries have museums within them or they preserve artifacts
                            left in their keeping. Contacting the monasteries directly, once
                            you have a basic idea of what they might have in their care, is
                            another way to go.

                            Find out if your university has a Slavic or Near Eastern division –
                            if so, go and explore it for a day or five. *grin* If not, figure
                            out where the books you would be interested in fall in the Dewey
                            Decimal System (or whatever shelving system your library uses) and
                            camp out in that section for a day or six. Pick up the books and
                            look through them, even if they are in languages you aren't familiar
                            with….

                            Get a dictionary to/for that language and English and memorize terms
                            that will help you when looking through those books. If it hasn't
                            any pictures but when looking at the index you see the word
                            for "costume" and "medieval" and "warfare" and whatever else you're
                            interested in, it might be worth your while to try translating those
                            chapters. Search for books with those words in the titles.

                            Interlibrary Loan is your friend. Some libraries charge a nominal
                            fee for this service, but it's generally worth it (most university
                            libraries don't charge for it, as it's built into the student's
                            fees). Search the bibliography of the books you have – translate
                            the ones you can't read. See if certain author's names turn up
                            consistently within your area of study and do a search on that
                            author. See if your local university has lending agreements with
                            other organizations and groups and search those library listings as
                            well.

                            As for keywords that might not be obvious, I'd say again, consult a
                            two language dictionary and go for it. You'd be amazed at what
                            you'll find on websites done in a country's native language – many
                            of which don't have online translators attached to them so searching
                            for that word in English won't pop up the information, even though
                            it's out there and easily accessible.

                            Search the museums that might not be obvious to you. As mentioned
                            in the earlier thread, the Louvre, the Hermitage, the Met, the
                            National Gallery in Washington DC. Find out what museums in your
                            area have online collections. Look through art books that cover the
                            centuries you want and then ask museum personel if they know
                            where "Cool Guy on a Horse" painted by Great Artist, a Saxon in the
                            year 1398 is currently located. The more specific you can be with
                            your questions to museums, the better the answers you will recieve
                            from them.

                            Stephania:
                            2)Also Where: What other cultures would be related? I'm reading a
                            history of Poland-- it's amazing how many times people became
                            freinds, then enemies, then freind, etc-- and am trying to develop
                            an
                            understanding of which cultures they had 'positive' contact with,
                            when, but it's hard to tell what cultures to look into, first. Any
                            hints would be greatly appreciated...

                            Despina:
                            Make sure that the history you're reading isn't biased too heavily
                            toward any given side. Reading multiple histories of a region is
                            best, when possible. This gives you multiple points of view and
                            allows you to sort through the dreck and find the kernels of truth
                            in each to put together what you believe (and can support) to be a
                            cohesive restructuring of the actual history. This can be
                            especially difficult with the countries that were formerly behind
                            the "Iron Curtain", due to restrictions on publications and
                            censorship.

                            That being said, how many times was the country over run by Group X?
                            For how many years were they occupied by Group X? Any ideas as to
                            how many of Group X stayed in the area after the invasion? The lower
                            those numbers, the less impact on the locals that group was likely
                            to have had.

                            Is the country (or better yet, the city) which you're investigating
                            on a trade route? Was the trade route major or minor? Did it serve
                            for several countries or just for the immediate area?

                            Is the country (or city) the site of a major religious `thing'? Be
                            that a cathedral, a vision, a shrine, a piece of the cross, a
                            monastery, a major church, the only church for 100 miles, or some
                            other such? If so, it might have been a pilgrimage place and the
                            citizens would have seen people coming from far away, wearing and
                            carrying (and eating) goodness only knows what – investigate those
                            pilgrims and the places from which they came.

                            Who did your rulers marry? From whence came the brides and grooms?
                            Grooms can have more of an impact on the society than brides –
                            depending, of course, on the layer of society into which they marry
                            and their ability to `keep' their wife. Philip II of Spain certainly
                            didn't have the sway over Mary of England that he would have liked.
                            Either way (bride or groom) the incoming half of the marriage would
                            most certainly have brought their own servants, clothing, sense of
                            style and taste; how much impact that taste had on the society into
                            which that person was thrust is a matter for investigation.

                            Stephania:
                            2)When? How far forward or back could a person extrapolate for
                            the "Mid-SCA" period? I know that, by the 16th century, fashions had
                            radically changed, but how far into the 15th century is "safe" for
                            late-ish 14th?

                            Despina:
                            I'm most comfortable within 50 years of the date one wants to
                            represent. That's 50 years before or behind; other people have other
                            fields of comfort for this. Again, looking at the cultures
                            surrounding your area of interest, and the cultures with which yours
                            had major contact is going to give you a lot of information on which
                            to make solid educated guesses. Usually when focusing to either side
                            of a date, one can find a few pieces and clues to either side,
                            making hypothesis easier.

                            By narrowing the focus to a single date, one has put on blinders and
                            will often miss small but very helpful clues. No person ever
                            arrived fully formed, aged 26 in the year 1539, complete with
                            clothing, food, armor, education, and background in his home. Just
                            as now, that person who was 26 in 1539 became who he was through the
                            years that he had lived up to 1539. So while it might not be
                            fashionable to have a Majolica compote in oranges and yellows any
                            longer, it might be what he's got on which to serve fruits to his
                            guests so he'll use it.

                            By focusing within 50 years to either side, you give yourself leeway
                            and the ability to look at more sources, which lead to more sources,
                            which lead…. And before you realize it, you'll be able to paint a
                            fairly accurate picture of a pretty tight time.... (of course, this
                            could be years, not months)

                            Also keep in mind if your geographic area (city or village) is close
                            to a major hub or out in the boonies. Those in the boonies are
                            going to be wearing last decade's fashions rather than just last
                            year's. Many people forget the length of time it could take for a
                            fashion change to reach some areas in that time period.

                            Long winded, but I hope it helps.

                            Smiles,
                            Despina
                          • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                            ... I ve got a list of some books here: http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                            Message 13 of 24 , May 5 11:49 AM
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                              > Hi, I'm trying to work out a Polish 14th century persona, and as
                              > I've found a very limited amount of information, I was wondering if
                              > you could expand upon your "you haven't dug far enough" comment.

                              I've got a list of some books here:
                              http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html

                              Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                              more material I have on hand? THanks!

                              -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                              "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                              tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                              -- L.B. Johnson
                            • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                              By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone feels like looking at it and jumping in. ... -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa
                              Message 14 of 24 , May 5 11:54 AM
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                                By the way, I welcome comments and additions to the site below if anyone
                                feels like looking at it and jumping in.

                                > I've got a list of some books here:
                                > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                                >
                                > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this with
                                > more material I have on hand? THanks!
                                >
                                > -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                                > "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                                > tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                                > -- L.B. Johnson
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                                "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                                tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                                -- L.B. Johnson
                              • sismith42
                                ... with ... Hi Jadwiga, Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it before, but didn t remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                                Message 15 of 24 , May 6 2:42 AM
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                                  > I've got a list of some books here:
                                  > http://www.lehigh.edu/~jahb/jadwiga/med_poland.html
                                  >
                                  > Stephanie, can I ask you to poke me repeatedly aboug updating this
                                  with
                                  > more material I have on hand? THanks!

                                  Hi Jadwiga,
                                  Great site, thanks for reminding me of it! I remember seeing it
                                  before, but didn't remeber the booklist at the end :-) Oh, and, you
                                  wanted poking about updating...? ;-)

                                  Stefania
                                • Alexandreina Dragos
                                  ... As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon. There are a few of us very
                                  Message 16 of 24 , May 6 10:53 AM
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                                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, abbondanza <delacroi29@y...> wrote:
                                    > I must admit, I am also curious as to what article is being
                                    > produced, scadian or mundane/professional?
                                    >
                                    > Antoinette
                                    > B.S. in Art History
                                    >
                                    > > > BTW, for what is this article being produced? and what are
                                    > > the sources in your bibliography?
                                    >
                                    As I told Despina in an earlier post, it is only for an online
                                    newsgroup like this one for a local chapter of Reams of Avalon.
                                    There are a few of us very interested in Vlad's reign and who have
                                    chosen our personas from there so we're doing our best to figure out
                                    the clothes.
                                    Reina
                                  • Alexandreina Dragos
                                    ... Vampire s ... Buffy ... brother ... friend went ... 5 feet ... we got. LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball attendees I ve spoken
                                    Message 17 of 24 , May 6 12:39 PM
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                                      --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Jeanne Papanastasiou" <jeanne@a...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I'm also a vampire junkie and love Anne Rice as well as studying
                                      > actual vampire lore from all over the world.
                                      >
                                      > I HAD to reply to this one. In 1998 I had invitations to the
                                      Vampire's
                                      > ball Anne throws every year (I worked with her niece). I went as
                                      Buffy
                                      > (movie version), a good friend of mine went as Von Helsing. His
                                      brother
                                      > went at Whitey Snipes (he's 6 foot and an albino) and his best
                                      friend went
                                      > as a monk (he is black and wanted to go as snipes, but he's barely
                                      5 feet
                                      > tall and 5 feet across, so we figured a monk was better suited).
                                      >
                                      > After an hour, we were asked to leave. It was priceless the looks
                                      we got.

                                      LOL I can believe it! From what I understand from other ball
                                      attendees I've spoken with in the past it's very much an "Anne Rice
                                      Universe ONLY" at these things.

                                      > But I do have to admit, when her Highness spoke from her throne,
                                      yes a
                                      > throne, she began speaking of her sexual fantasy's which included
                                      male
                                      > castration, we were heading for the door anyway.

                                      Oh my! Yeah, I DO like her writing (well most of it but this
                                      certainly isn't the list to expound upon my theories on Lestat or
                                      explain why I like Louis better)but I've never had the sense that
                                      she's someone I'd like to hang out with. And I'm not even a guy! LOL

                                      >
                                      > So we played a live pick-up Vampire game in the cemeteries of New
                                      Orleans.

                                      Oh envy envy envy! I soooooo wanna go to New Orleans! And to LARP
                                      VtM there! What fun!

                                      >
                                      > And to this day, I DO believe in Vampires!!! yes, had a horrible
                                      > experience!

                                      I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                                      Regards,
                                      Reina
                                    • Jeanne Papanastasiou
                                      [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I
                                      Message 18 of 24 , May 6 3:11 PM
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                                        [I snipped out 33-54 lines, depending on how you count it. What is left, besides my editorial notes, is all that should have been sent. Edit your posts. I mean it. --Yana, moderator]





                                        ask me off list!

                                        Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                                        http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                                        Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                                        three fleur-de-lys Or

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Alexandreina Dragos [mailto:lamiastrix@...]

                                        I'm just dying to know what you mean by that!
                                        Regards,
                                        Reina
                                      • viola_de_lessops
                                        Hello: I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to everyone in hope
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 11, 2004
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                                          Hello:

                                          I am new to this group and have never posted before. My interests
                                          lie in medieval Poland. I am hoping to send out a few questions to
                                          everyone in hope that someone will know answers.

                                          My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                          medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                          relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                          2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                          1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                          what language were they from?

                                          Thank you very much. Any help is much appreciated.

                                          Johanna
                                        • Ron Jachim
                                          1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies God s Playground (volume 1). I can t recall the exact year, but if someone has that handy, it
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                            1) I think there are some diagrams of this in Norman Davies' "God's
                                            Playground" (volume 1). I can't recall the exact year, but if
                                            someone has that handy, it should have the answer.

                                            2) I don't follow your question.

                                            Ron
                                          • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                            ... The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr Górecki. I am hoping to have a review for it
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                              > My first question is: does anyone know how farms were set up in
                                              > medieval Poland (such as how big were they, where were they in
                                              > relation to each other and the manor house, etc.)?

                                              The book to check out for this is:
                                              _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                              Górecki.

                                              I am hoping to have a review for it for the Spring 2004 Slovo

                                              > 2nd question: I know that Polish was a written language until about
                                              > 1500. Does anyone know if the people got place names from Polish or
                                              > what language were they from?

                                              Since Polish was not a written language early in period, there is some
                                              question about the spelling of place names; in some documents they were
                                              Latinized. But in general place names were taken from the Polish language
                                              and just written down in Latin characters.

                                              -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                              "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                              can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                              -- Margaret Mead
                                            • MoxFool@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: The book to check out for this is: _Economy, society, and
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                                In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:11:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                jenne@... writes:
                                                The book to check out for this is:
                                                _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                                Górecki.

                                                Witam, Czesc Panstvo!

                                                Is this in English or Polish?

                                                Dziekuje!
                                                Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                                Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                                Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                                Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                                Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                                                ... English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@fiedlerfamily.net Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 12, 2004
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                                                  > jenne@... writes:
                                                  > The book to check out for this is:
                                                  > _Economy, society, and lordship in medieval Poland, 1100-1250,_ by Piotr
                                                  > Górecki.
                                                  >
                                                  > Witam, Czesc Panstvo!
                                                  >
                                                  > Is this in English or Polish?
                                                  >

                                                  English! :)

                                                  -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                  "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                                  can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                                  -- Margaret Mead
                                                • MoxFool@aol.com
                                                  In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, jenne@fiedlerfamily.net writes: English! :) -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jan 13, 2004
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    In a message dated 1/12/2004 2:34:47 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                                    jenne@... writes:
                                                    English! :)

                                                    -- Pani Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, Knowledge Pika jenne@...
                                                    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens
                                                    can change the world; indeed it's the only thing that ever has..."
                                                    -- Margaret Mead
                                                    Great! Hello, inter-library loan!

                                                    Pan Zygmunt Nadratowski
                                                    Middle Kingdom, Barony of the Northwoods, The Shire of Talonval
                                                    Northwoods Baronial rapier champion, The Sword of Pentamere
                                                    Student of THL Albyn Buckthorne, C.B.R.
                                                    Living in the Land of the Free, because of the Brave


                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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