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Clothing in the Court of Dracula

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  • Alexandreina Dragos
    Greetings All! Below is the first draft of an article I am working on. I still need to add my biblography and come up with a pithy ending but aside from that
    Message 1 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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      Greetings All! Below is the first draft of an article I am working
      on. I still need to add my biblography and come up with a pithy
      ending but aside from that I was hoping some of you could take a few
      minutes to lok it over and let me know if you catch any glaring
      inaccuracies. Ideas and suggestions are eagerly sought as well.
      Many thanks in advance!
      Regards,
      Reina


      Clothing in the Court of Dracula, Developing Some Theories

      The 1460's, a time of amazing change in clothing styles throughout
      Europe, primarily starting with Italy. The houpelande, the last
      truly Europe-wide fashion, was giving way to the fitted bodice and
      gathered skirt that would characterize Italian, Burgundian and German
      dress for years to come. The beginning of truly regional styles had
      arrived. And here's where the historical costumer's job starts to
      get hard. Gone is the easy time where you could say, "Well they were
      wearing pretty much the same thing all over Europe so it doesn't
      matter where you say your persona is from, this outfit will work."
      Now, researching Italian dress is almost laughably easy. Even
      without the wonders of the internet you can walk into nearly any
      library and find books of Italian portraiture, even for as early in
      the Renaissance as the 1460's. And as that was what I made for many
      years I was, as a costumer, really spoiled.
      Then I decided to create a new persona which would allow me to
      indulge my fascination for Vlad Dracula, Prince of Wallachia, whose
      main reign was 1456 to 1462. In my naïveté I was excited about
      creating costuming for this new persona. After all, I'd done
      everything from T tunics to elaborate court garb of the 1550's. This
      should be easy enough, right? Boy was I in for a surprise. Searches
      for art from Romania, Transylvania, Wallachia and Hungary yielded
      virtually nothing in the way of portraiture (aside from a few of Vlad
      himself), most art being religious and with a scarcity of "donor"
      figures dressed in "regular" clothes that I had so come to depend
      upon in Italian art. Written accounts of clothing from the period
      were even more rare. Apparently the region now known as Romania may
      as well have not existed as far as clothing accounts go until you
      begin to study "folk costume" from the 1800's onward. Still, this
      was somewhat useful as you can examine embroidery patterns and color
      trends that easily go back a few hundred years even if the cut of the
      clothing is very different. But that's about all the study of folk
      costume yields.
      So I began to assemble the few facts I did have and it shakes out
      roughly like this:
      1. Wallachia owed fealty to King Matthias of Hungary. Matthias'
      Queen, Beatrix, was Italian. She brought Italian fashion to the
      Hungarian court. This is amply demonstrated in art depicting the
      Hungarian court and in the bust of Beatrix that still exists which
      shows her wearing a fitted, front lacing bodice and is dated "before
      1490". So, at first, I thought, "Ah ha! They were wearing
      Italianate styles! This will be easy!" After all, it is probable
      that the noble class of Wallachia would have attempted to emulate the
      styles popular with the wealthy Hungarian court. However, it was not
      until 1476 that King Mattheus married Beatrice, the daughter of the
      King of Naples, and this is well after Dracula's original heyday.
      So, for my purposes, it is unlikely that there would have been an
      Italian influence on the Hungarian (and thus the Wallachian) court,
      as had been my first incorrect assumption. While Italianate
      influences would probably have come to Wallachia during his later
      reign it was so brief that it does not bear much scrutiny.
      2. Most of Central Europe was, at this time, still wearing some
      version of the the Houpelande though, as I noted earlier,
      some "fashion forward" regions were moving to the fitted bodice and
      gathered skirt model.
      3. Wallachia, when it wasn't ruled by Hungary, was under the
      dominion of the Ottoman Turks. In some accounts of the Boyars there
      is mention of "Turkish robes" being worn. I believe it is safe to
      say that the proximity of the Ottoman Empire would indeed have had an
      effect on Wallachian fashion, most notably in fabrics, and Turkish
      brocades and motifs were, in all probability, quite common in the
      garments of the upper classes. Also, the houpelande, being a long
      flowing garment, would probably have indeed seemed very similar to
      the flowing robes of the Ottoman Turks.
      4. There was also, during the reign of Dracula, a strong German
      presence in Wallachia and it is possible that their fashions also had
      some influence on the region. In the early 1460s German women
      seemed, for the most part, to still be wearing the kirtle, a
      descendant of the cotehardie, often with short sleeves on the
      overgown and long sleeves on the undergown. The kirtle was worn
      beneath the Houpelande in other regions and it is likely that this
      was the case in Eastern Europe as well. The cotehardie was probably
      still worn by men beneath the houpelande as well.
      5. When one considers the court of Dracula there is also the fact
      that one of the first things Dracula did was to essentially decimate
      the Boyar class. The infamous "How many princes have you known?"
      incident that led to mass executions and then the enslavement of the
      survivors in order to build the castle above the Arges River all but
      eradicated the ruling Boyar class. Vlad replaced these with new men
      from among the free peasantry and middle class; men who would be
      loyal only to him. What would these people have dressed like? While
      surely with their elevated status they ceased to dress like peasants
      it is doubtful that they took on the opulence of their Boyar
      predecessors. Vlad was known for being austere and placing great
      emphasis on hard work and honesty. It is highly unlikely that those
      he elevated took up the excesses of the Boyars as untoward vanity
      could be fatal at the court of Dracula as easily as treachery against
      him could be. The few Boyars that remained, no matter their
      resentment or secret plots against Dracula, most likely adopted a
      more sober mode of dress as well. Then too there is the incident
      wherein Vlad supposedly executed a peasant woman because her husband
      was dressed in dirty rags, an indication that she was slothful and
      not mindful of her duties as a wife. One imagines after that people
      took their appearance very seriously. Nor was Vlad the type who
      would overlook "wanton" display and though he had mistresses he
      expected women to be virtuous. It's unlikely that the women of his
      court took up provocatively low necklines or indulged in a great deal
      of makeup.

      So where does this leave us? Existing folk costume of Romania and
      Transylvania suggests a liking for dark colors and elaborate
      embroidery. This was quite possibly true in Dracula's day as well as
      he is always shown in dark colors. The near constant interaction
      with the Turks makes their "flowing robes" and ornate brocades
      another heavy influence on fashion of the region during Dracula's
      reign. The houpelande and cotehardie or kirtle were being worn all
      over most of Central Europe at this time and it is reasonable to
      assume that this basic shape, particularly as the latter was similar
      to the shape of the garments of the Ottoman Empire, was probably worn
      in most of Eastern Europe as well. Men may have worn either the
      fitted hosen of Central Europe or the loose pants of the Turks which
      were quite voluminous but narrowed towards the ankle, could be fairly
      close fitting along the calf, and would have tucked neatly into
      boots. Since the few pictures of Dracula I have been able to find
      show him in long overgarments it is difficult to tell what sort
      of "pants" he might have preferred and I feel that either would have
      been reasonable for the region during his reign.
      Now for a little extrapolation. To the best of my knowledge we have
      no extant garments of Wallachian or Transylvanian origin from the
      1450's and early 1460's. So this is where I start making things
      up. I feel I can say with a fair amount of certainty that the
      houpelande was probably pretty much the standard item of clothing for
      both men and women with the cotehardie/kirtle worn beneath. Colors
      were primarily dark, blacks, rusts, reds, blues, greens and browns.
      Brocades with Middle Eastern motifs are likely, as are brocades from
      Germany due to the German Saxon merchant presence in Transylvania and
      Wallachia. Italian fabrics are possible as there was trade between
      Venice and Naples and Hungary but these are probably a little less
      likely to turn up in the "hinterlands" of Wallachia. Fabrics would
      have been silks (rare), wools and linens. Cotton is somewhat unlikely
      though it was being used as a "cheap" fabric in Italy, primarily used
      for ship sails rather than clothing from what little I have been able
      to glean about cotton manufacture. Considering the makeup of
      Dracula's court during his primary reign ornament was probably
      confined to embroidery and the flat, wide collar of many houpelande
      styles would have lent itself well to this sort of decoration, as
      would the belts that were worn with the houpelande. Pearls may have
      been used by the more wealthy and daring and Vlad was apparently fond
      of them himself and is seen in at least one portrait wearing a hat
      heavily encrusted with pearls. Cloaks do not seem to have been in
      vogue for men and instead a large coat-like garment was worn, made
      commonly of wool felt and often lined in fur. The current day
      Hungarian Szur seems to be the modern survival of this garment and
      has remained virtually unchanged for at least the past 300 years
      though it is now often highly ornamented with embroidery. This was
      possibly originally a garment of Middle Eastern origin. I am
      uncertain if women continued to wear a basic cloak or if they too
      wore this coat-like garment. If the latter is the case then it was
      probably a floor length garment rather than the midcalf length
      sported by the men. The sleeves were sometimes sewn closed at the
      cuff and used as sort of a pocket and the coat simply thrown over the
      shoulders and worn much like a cloak.
      If we are to judge by Dracula himself men wore their hair long and
      loose and wore conical shaped hats, sometimes quite tall and often
      with a turned back brim of a contrasting material or fur. The
      headgear of women is more problematical. It does not seem reasonable
      to me that the fantastical styles of elaborate headdresses worn with
      the houpelande in Central Europe would have prevailed at the more
      austere and poorer court of Dracula. Smaller caps and veils may have
      been more likely and possibly the turban/stuffed roll style of
      headdress. However, due to a lack of pictorial evidence at this
      point in my studies this must remain conjecture on my part.
    • Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil
      The woman who was killed because of what her husband was wearing - his shirt was too short, reaching only to mid-thigh rather than as it should have been. He
      Message 2 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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        The woman who was killed because of what her husband was wearing - his
        shirt was too short, reaching only to mid-thigh rather than as it should
        have been. He was not reported to have been wearing rags - his shirt was
        too short which was looked on as slovenly workmanship by his wife.

        Vlad was, as a child, taken as a royal hostage by the Turks in order that
        his father, the ruler of Wallachia at the time, would work for/with the
        Turks in manners they approved. Thus, his influences from a very young age
        are from the Ottomans. The likelyhood that he would have worn salwar (the
        Turkish pants that your friend writes of) is rather high, though none have
        been found in graves or pictured in portraits so far as I know at this
        time. While among the Turks, Vlad learned many ways of torture and
        execution not yet known to Wallachia and it's surrounding regions - that's
        where he learned of impaling people. He didn't invent it, he just became
        famous for it. There is also the possibility that he would have turned his
        back on some of the material culture of the Ottomans due to his
        imprisonment, making the use of salwar just as improbable.

        Women from different lands tend to bring with them the fashion of their
        home. In many instances, those fashions yield with time to regional
        preferences. For instance, the impact that Mary Hapsburg had on the fashion
        of Hungary during her time as wife of Louis II was minimal. Therefore,
        trying to base the fashion of a country off of the clothing of a bride from
        another country is not generally accepted as reliable.

        Pictures, hangings, fresco paintings, and embroideries of women (granted,
        wives of the rulers) usually depict them in garments similar to those of
        their male counterparts. Long overgowns (kaftans) with buttons or closures
        up the front, sometimes also on the sleeves. The garments under this are
        mostly speculation as, again, finds for those are very limited. A singular
        garment that looks similar to a modern sundress with its fitted bodice
        attached to a very full skirt, the bodice having six buttons in the front
        has been found, but it is the only one of it's kind of which I know (this
        is the only garment to give any credence to your #4 point of women in
        Wallachia wearing kirtles similar what all other women, particularly the
        German women, were wearing in Western Europe at this time). It is
        speculated that under this garment would have been something akin to the
        'shift' or 'chemise' and over it would have been worn a more ornate
        'kaftan' with it's closures in front and either long hanging sleeves
        (slitted at the elbow for the arm to go through)or short sleeves, curved at
        the inner portion of the elbow to allow better movement. Under the second
        type of kaftan is usually seen (on the arms) a garment that buttons at the
        wrist, or from the wrist to nearly the elbow - also usually in an ornate
        fabric. Sometimes the outermost kaftan is lined with fur, occasionally it
        is not.

        The houppeland and the kaftan have many major differences in construction,
        fit, and look. The fashions of Eastern Europe were commented on by
        travelers as being different. When Hungarians visited the courts of
        Western Europe as late as the 16th century, their different mode of dress
        was noted by those who saw them. You're making the dangerous assumption
        that everyone wore the same thing in the East and West at this time.

        As to the fabrics of the area, it is good to remember that portions of
        Wallachia were along major trading routes between the East and West. With
        the constant wars and change of rulers and the traveling merchants, it is
        likely that the fabrics used would more likely have been silks, wools, and
        furs, due to the ease of procurement for these things in such a region, as
        well as for warmth in the cool castles and harsh winters of the Carpathian
        Mountains. Linen certainly would have also been used, but probably more for
        the lower classes and for garments close to the skin. Many of the fabrics
        depicted in art and from grave digs are very similar to those of the
        Ottomans. Cotton would have most certainly been rare to nearly non-existent
        in Wallachia, as it was throughout Europe for the purpose of clothing.

        The Germans had occupied a section of Wallachia from the 12th century, when
        they were employed to help fend off the Turks. In the 13th century, the
        Saxon community was granted the right to build a fortified town within
        Wallachia - which was very nice since they had already done so. Their
        influence on the ruling class of Wallachia's clothing seems to have been
        minimal from what we have of grave digs, portraits, and frescoes left on
        walls through the region. BTW, to this day, particularly in Brasov, there
        is still a strong Saxon presence and the tensions between them, the
        Hungarians, and the Wallachians are rather high. Saxon children are raised
        speaking German and attending German speaking schools....

        As for the headwear of the women, most depictions of them (again, usually
        wives of rulers) show high crowns worn with veils underneath. Hair is not
        seen. There are also pictures of some wider brimmed hat sorts of things
        (similar to a Saxon style but lacking the feathers) and some with coif type
        hats under the wide brimmed hats - those I have only as re-drawings I
        think, so I'm not as sure of them as the crown with veil. Nearly all that
        I recall are wearing, under the hats, veils that fall nearly to their
        breasts in length. Viewing the frescos and portraits, the styles of
        headwear for men can be quite varied and the style in which Vlad is most
        frequently shown (most publications use the same portrait of him) is most
        certainly not the only style worn by men of the region. Judging the manner
        in which men of an entire region based on the portraits of a single man of
        that time and region is also not recommended. It would be similar to saying
        that all men in Hollywood in the 1970's were bald based on a picture of
        Cojack. One can ascertain how that man dressed his hair, but not how his
        compatriots would have done.

        Pearls are seen on a number of garments for both men and women in frescos,
        as are more ornate (what we would today call) trims on the garments.

        Evidence for the time frame in which you are choosing to work is very
        scarce and the publications one finds must be viewed with tremendous
        scrutiny due to political leanings of authors and the fondness that
        Rumanians seem to have for burning their past and beginning
        again. However, from written accounts of those who entertained
        dignitaries, frescos, embroideries, grave finds, and portraits all of the
        years shortly following (50 years or so) those you choose to study, some
        extrapolations can be made which fall more in line with the thinking that
        Wallachians and Eastern Europeans in general dressed much differently from
        Western Europe.

        Cu Drag,
        Domina Despina ot Brasov


        ----------
        "Re-creation necessarily implies research before the craftwork
        starts. If you haven't done the research, you can create, but you
        cannot possibly RE-create." [Arval d'Espas Nord]


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kinjal of Moravia
        ... as Seljuk and Mongolian directions. Also consider Marmauk and Thracian influence My research into Kievian culture has led me thinking that there was no
        Message 3 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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          --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil"
          <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
          >
          > consentration of the 'Ottoman' influence will not be as productive
          as 'Seljuk'and 'Mongolian' directions. Also consider Marmauk and
          Thracian influence

          My research into Kievian culture has led me thinking that there was
          no specific dress, each wearing what worked for their task.

          You may also want to explore the writings if St. Elizabeth of
          Hungary, thogh she is of an earlier peirod.
          > "
          Kinjal
        • Alexandreina Dragos
          ... his ... should ... shirt was ... Ah ha, yes that was it! Thank you! Funny, I had marked this in my personal first draft to look up again because I knew I
          Message 4 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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            --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil"
            <aheilvei@u...> wrote:
            >
            > The woman who was killed because of what her husband was wearing -
            his
            > shirt was too short, reaching only to mid-thigh rather than as it
            should
            > have been. He was not reported to have been wearing rags - his
            shirt was
            > too short which was looked on as slovenly workmanship by his wife.

            Ah ha, yes that was it! Thank you! Funny, I had marked this in my
            personal first draft to look up again because I knew I was off as to
            the particulars. LOL

            >
            > Vlad was, as a child, taken as a royal hostage by the Turks in
            order that
            > his father, the ruler of Wallachia at the time, would work for/with
            the
            > Turks in manners they approved. Thus, his influences from a very
            young age
            > are from the Ottomans.

            Yes, I am very aware of that.


            The likelyhood that he would have worn salwar (the
            > Turkish pants that your friend writes of) is rather high, though
            none have
            > been found in graves or pictured in portraits so far as I know at
            this
            > time. While among the Turks, Vlad learned many ways of torture and
            > execution not yet known to Wallachia and it's surrounding regions -
            that's
            > where he learned of impaling people. He didn't invent it, he just
            became
            > famous for it. There is also the possibility that he would have
            turned his
            > back on some of the material culture of the Ottomans due to his
            > imprisonment, making the use of salwar just as improbable.

            Indeed. I go back and forth on this a lot. He was raised for many
            years among the Turks so certainly they influenced him in many
            regards. However, he also hated them and fought against them all his
            life so the question is always; Did he adopt their fashions because
            they were comfprtable and familiar or did he reject them utterly
            because he hated them?

            >
            > Women from different lands tend to bring with them the fashion of
            their
            > home. In many instances, those fashions yield with time to
            regional
            > preferences. For instance, the impact that Mary Hapsburg had on the
            fashion
            > of Hungary during her time as wife of Louis II was minimal.
            Therefore,
            > trying to base the fashion of a country off of the clothing of a
            bride from
            > another country is not generally accepted as reliable.

            This is true however Beatrix DID have a good deal of influence on the
            fashions of the Hungarian court. The paintings and busts I have seen
            that date from after her marriage to Matthius show a VERY Italian
            influence. However, again, this is moot as it's past the period I'm
            looking into.

            >
            > Pictures, hangings, fresco paintings, and embroideries of women
            (granted,
            > wives of the rulers) usually depict them in garments similar to
            those of
            > their male counterparts.


            PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE point me to these references. My searches
            have been VERY frustrating. If I could SEE these pics, hangings,
            frescoes and embroideries of Eastern Europe of the 1450s and 1460s
            you speak of it would go a LONG way towards helping me.


            Long overgowns (kaftans) with buttons or closures
            > up the front, sometimes also on the sleeves. The garments under
            this are
            > mostly speculation as, again, finds for those are very limited. A
            singular
            > garment that looks similar to a modern sundress with its fitted
            bodice
            > attached to a very full skirt, the bodice having six buttons in the
            front
            > has been found, but it is the only one of it's kind of which I know


            Do you have an aproximate date for this garment? And a location???


            (this
            > is the only garment to give any credence to your #4 point of women
            in
            > Wallachia wearing kirtles similar what all other women,
            particularly the
            > German women, were wearing in Western Europe at this time). It is
            > speculated that under this garment would have been something akin
            to the
            > 'shift' or 'chemise' and over it would have been worn a more ornate
            > 'kaftan' with it's closures in front and either long hanging
            sleeves
            > (slitted at the elbow for the arm to go through)or short sleeves,
            curved at
            > the inner portion of the elbow to allow better movement. Under the
            second
            > type of kaftan is usually seen (on the arms) a garment that buttons
            at the
            > wrist, or from the wrist to nearly the elbow - also usually in an
            ornate
            > fabric. Sometimes the outermost kaftan is lined with fur,
            occasionally it
            > is not.


            Again, if you can tell me where you get this information it would be
            DEEPLY appreciated!


            >
            > The houppeland and the kaftan have many major differences in
            construction,
            > fit, and look. The fashions of Eastern Europe were commented on by
            > travelers as being different. When Hungarians visited the courts
            of
            > Western Europe as late as the 16th century, their different mode of
            dress
            > was noted by those who saw them. You're making the dangerous
            assumption
            > that everyone wore the same thing in the East and West at this time.


            No, not exactly. In fact I am trying to pin down what the
            differences were. Was Eastern Europe more influenced by the Middle
            East or by Central European fashions? Were they wearing something
            altogether different from either area? Inquiring minds wanna know!
            Yes, I am certain there are many differences in construction between
            the houppelande and the kaftan. I've made both. But both are full,
            long, voluminous garments that, though worn differently, have the
            same general appearance. So which was being worn in Dracula's court?
            Without concrete evidence both seem equally likely to me.

            >
            > As to the fabrics of the area, it is good to remember that portions
            of
            > Wallachia were along major trading routes between the East and
            West. With
            > the constant wars and change of rulers and the traveling merchants,
            it is
            > likely that the fabrics used would more likely have been silks,
            wools, and
            > furs, due to the ease of procurement for these things in such a
            region, as
            > well as for warmth in the cool castles and harsh winters of the
            Carpathian
            > Mountains. Linen certainly would have also been used, but probably
            more for
            > the lower classes and for garments close to the skin. Many of the
            fabrics
            > depicted in art and from grave digs are very similar to those of
            the
            > Ottomans.


            Yes and I belive I touched on that. Perhaps I should add more detail.

            Cotton would have most certainly been rare to nearly non-existent
            > in Wallachia, as it was throughout Europe for the purpose of
            clothing.

            Yep, touched on that too.

            >
            > The Germans had occupied a section of Wallachia from the 12th
            century, when
            > they were employed to help fend off the Turks. In the 13th
            century, the
            > Saxon community was granted the right to build a fortified town
            within
            > Wallachia - which was very nice since they had already done so.

            LOL True! I know a good deal about the political climate of the
            time and what happened when. Hence my interest in the first place.
            What's lacking is a sure knowledge of the clothing!

            Their
            > influence on the ruling class of Wallachia's clothing seems to have
            been
            > minimal from what we have of grave digs, portraits, and frescoes
            left on
            > walls through the region.

            So can you expand on the more obvious differences? Are there online
            pics of these portraits and frescoes you refer to?


            BTW, to this day, particularly in Brasov, there
            > is still a strong Saxon presence and the tensions between them, the
            > Hungarians, and the Wallachians are rather high. Saxon children are
            raised
            > speaking German and attending German speaking schools....
            >
            > As for the headwear of the women, most depictions of them (again,
            usually
            > wives of rulers) show high crowns worn with veils underneath. Hair
            is not
            > seen. There are also pictures of some wider brimmed hat sorts of
            things
            > (similar to a Saxon style but lacking the feathers) and some with
            coif type
            > hats under the wide brimmed hats - those I have only as re-drawings
            I
            > think, so I'm not as sure of them as the crown with veil.

            Even that would be nice to see!


            Nearly all that
            > I recall are wearing, under the hats, veils that fall nearly to
            their
            > breasts in length. Viewing the frescos and portraits, the styles
            of
            > headwear for men can be quite varied and the style in which Vlad is
            most
            > frequently shown (most publications use the same portrait of him)
            is most
            > certainly not the only style worn by men of the region. Judging the
            manner
            > in which men of an entire region based on the portraits of a single
            man of
            > that time and region is also not recommended.
            It would be similar to saying
            > that all men in Hollywood in the 1970's were bald based on a
            picture of
            > Cojack. One can ascertain how that man dressed his hair, but not
            how his
            > compatriots would have done.

            Of course there were other styles and I would certainly not dispute
            that. But also it is common to emulate your ruler.

            >
            > Pearls are seen on a number of garments for both men and women in
            frescos,
            > as are more ornate (what we would today call) trims on the garments.

            I reallllly want to see these frescoes you keep refering to. A
            little more information on them please????

            >
            > Evidence for the time frame in which you are choosing to work is
            very
            > scarce and the publications one finds must be viewed with
            tremendous
            > scrutiny due to political leanings of authors and the fondness that
            > Rumanians seem to have for burning their past and beginning
            > again. However, from written accounts of those who entertained
            > dignitaries, frescos, embroideries, grave finds, and portraits all
            of the
            > years shortly following (50 years or so) those you choose to study,
            some
            > extrapolations can be made which fall more in line with the
            thinking that
            > Wallachians and Eastern Europeans in general dressed much
            differently from
            > Western Europe.
            >
            > Cu Drag,
            > Domina Despina ot Brasov
            >
            >
            Thank you very much for your observations and help. Please help me
            even more by letting me know where you get your references from that
            I may find and study them myself. Alas, otherwise they are not of
            much use to me.
            Regards,
            Reina
          • abbondanza
            Alexandreina, A few ideas to aid you in your pursuit of an educational adventure ;) Royal portraits are usually in museums, contacting the large Art museums in
            Message 5 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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              Alexandreina,

              A few ideas to aid you in your pursuit of an educational
              adventure ;)

              Royal portraits are usually in museums, contacting the large
              Art museums in Europe will not only be fun but also a sound
              investment of your time.
              A quick email to: The Hermitage (yes, they have more there than
              late period Czarist works), The Louvre, The Prado etc. asking if
              they have any East European Royal portraits and if yes, could
              they send you a color copy?
              Larger Eastern U.S. art museums usually have a few east european
              portraits due to the mirgration of East Europenas who settled
              near the waterways of the Eastern seaboard over to the Great
              Lakes.
              The Met in NY, the Getty, Washington Gallery of Art, etc.
              are all online.

              Also, look at minted coins from the time period that you are
              interested in, they can be most revealing ;)
              This is usually listed as "numismatics"

              The Art Periodicals, such as The Smithsonian have online search
              engines to review all of their periodicals, of course, you will
              have to go to a larger library and look up the articles as they
              are not all online, I have seen some interesting similarities
              between Swedish Queens and Polish Queens.

              Have fun ;) enjoy your adventure!
              THL Antoinette de la Croix
              Aethelmearc

              PS: Despina! Thank you for such a thorough missive on this
              matter!!!! I always enjoy hearing your view, opinions and the
              fruits of your intensive studies. You inspire me, as usual.



              __________________________________
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            • Jeanne Papanastasiou
              He was raised for many years among the Turks so certainly they influenced him in many regards. However, he also hated them and fought against them all his
              Message 6 of 8 , May 1, 2003
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                He was raised for many years among the Turks so certainly they influenced
                him in many regards. However, he also hated them and fought against them
                all his
                life so the question is always; Did he adopt their fashions because
                they were comfortable and familiar or did he reject them utterly
                because he hated them?

                Remember the adage, we become what we hate/loathe.

                Soffya Appollonia Tudja
                http://www.aeonline.biz/Links.htm
                Argent, a patriarchal cross between three crescent gules on a chief sable
                three fleur-de-lys Or







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jenne@fiedlerfamily.net
                ... *blink* I wasn t aware St. Elizabeth of Hungary had written anything! Do you know the titles? -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@fiedlerfamily.net I m tired.
                Message 7 of 8 , May 2, 2003
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                  > You may also want to explore the writings if St. Elizabeth of
                  > Hungary, thogh she is of an earlier peirod.

                  *blink* I wasn't aware St. Elizabeth of Hungary had written anything! Do
                  you know the titles?

                  -- Jadwiga Zajaczkowa jenne@...
                  "I'm tired. I'm tired of feeling rejected by the American people. I'm
                  tired of waking up in the middle of the night worrying about the war."
                  -- L.B. Johnson
                • Alexandreina Dragos
                  ... *snippage* Wonderful ideas all! Thank you! I ll let you know what I find. Regards, Reina
                  Message 8 of 8 , May 2, 2003
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                    --- In sig@yahoogroups.com, abbondanza <delacroi29@y...> wrote:
                    > Alexandreina,
                    >
                    > A few ideas to aid you in your pursuit of an educational
                    > adventure ;)
                    >
                    *snippage*
                    Wonderful ideas all! Thank you! I'll let you know what I find.
                    Regards,
                    Reina
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