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Re: [sig] New comer naming question

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  • Paul W. Goldschmidt
    ... Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don t mean later? -- Paul
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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      At 08:08 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, you wrote:
      > Were there any naming things I need to know in Muscovite
      >Russia (that's the area i'm trying to develop my persona in. Time wise its
      >about 12-14th Century)? Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
      >this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view (I'm going by
      >info on the top of my head)?

      Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
      mean later?

      -- Paul
    • MHoll@aol.com
      In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time, ... In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don t remember a Misha, and I ve read the account a
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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        In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:04:55 AM Central Standard Time,
        Posadnik@... writes:

        > You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
        > story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
        > so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.

        In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
        the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.

        > Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
        > for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
        > oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
        > processing, sorry.

        Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.

        Predslava.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • MHoll@aol.com
        In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time, ... Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly high nobility
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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          In a message dated 3/1/2003 10:05:00 AM Central Standard Time,
          xvlovercrimvx@... writes:

          > Any Tataric influence when it came to naming or was
          > this mainly the time that the Slavic culture came into view

          Unless you want to build yourself a persona with Tartar ancestors (mostly
          high nobility anyway), I wouldn't worry about it. Just go with Slavic names.

          Predslava.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Alexey Kiyaikin
          Greetings! ... AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger s tent s central pole, etc.
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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            Greetings!
            >> You are wrong, I'd say. Misha the carpenter was mentioned within the
            >> story about the Neva battle (after which Alexander Nevsky was called
            >> so), he managed to cut through the bottoms of two Swedish ships.
            >
            > In the Chronicle? Give a citation. I don't remember a Misha, and I've read
            > the account a number of times. In the film? It's irrelevant.
            AFAIR, the chronicle. same chronicle that mentioned the duel between
            the leaders, the cutting down of the Birger's tent's central pole,
            etc. Misha the Carpenter was among the three or four warriors
            mentioned in that text. Sorry, can't cite here - no book right now at
            hand. Just my memories how i read it. BTW, first I met that person in
            a children's book at the age of 5, and being already an adult was
            somehow interested by the fact that personality wasn't fictitious.
            >

            >> Though, the problem is with Medvednikov. -nik suffix is and was used
            >> for professions. Mednik (copper worker), neftyanik (oil rig worker),
            >> oruzheinik (armorer). There is no profession connected with bear
            >> processing, sorry.
            >
            > Bear hunting. You can't use modern examples.
            Medvezhatnik. It's not modern.

            Bye,
            Alex.
          • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
            In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I m trying to research the different
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2003
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              In a message dated 3/1/03 11:23:37 AM Eastern Standard Time,
              goldschp@... writes:


              > Moscow was a backwater in the 12th-14th century. :) You sure you don't
              > mean later?
              >
              > -- Paul
              >

              What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
              research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian) and
              am trying to place my persona's origins in one of those three "kingdoms"
              (used loosely). My persona's father is an Italian Merchant so Novogrod would
              seem to be a good place since his mother is Half-German also. Kievian Rus was
              powerful but mainly wasn't it powerful in S. Russian and near Ukraine? If
              anyone has any info, it would be appreciated. Thanks!

              Misha


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            • Elizabeth Lear
              ... Lifted from my own lecture notes: KIEV 970-1240 Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish vikings called Varangians. It s
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 2, 2003
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                On Sat, Mar 01, 2003 at 11:58:17PM -0500, xvlovercrimvx@... wrote:
                > What century did Muscovite Russia slowly climb to power? I'm trying to
                > research the different areas of Russia (Novogrod, Muscovite, and Kievian)

                Lifted from my own lecture notes:

                KIEV 970-1240

                Kiev began as a small village settled in the 9th century by Swedish
                vikings called Varangians. It's located on the Dnieper River, which
                functioned as a highway to Constantinople. As a result it thrived as
                a trading community and was wealthy, sophisticated, and envied.

                The Grand Duchy of Kiev had been a very strong influence on the region
                in the middle ages, but it started to decline in the late 11th century
                as the Grand Duke started to lose authority over feudal principalities
                that were asserting their independence.

                This breakdown made it easier for the nomadic tribes of the east to
                invade southern Russia. Kiev was divided, and eventually formed three
                related but independent regions in the 13th century.
                Great Russia - Vladimir, Rostov and Novgorod Little Russia -
                the southwest regions Belorussia - the eastern regions

                The Grand Duchy of Kiev was devestated by the Mongol invasions in the
                1200s and did not really recover until the 18th century.


                NOVGOROD 1240-1480

                While Kiev was the center of Russian power, Novgorod was second to it
                in importance. Novgorod imitated Kiev's architecture and culture,
                which made it an excellent 'storehouse' for preserving that culture
                during the Tartar domination (1238-1462).

                Novgorod was the largest and richest city in Russia from the 12th to
                the 15th centuries after Kiev was conquered and divided. Its
                relatively sheltered location spared it from much of the Tartar
                invasion, but it survived in style during the occupation of Russia
                primarily by submitting themselves completely to Tartar rule. They
                paid tribute, did homage to the "Tartar Tsar", and admitted Mongol
                tax-gatherers.

                In return, Novgorod was spared and became a merchant city and a great
                center of the arts, with new schools of architecture and icon painting
                thriving there. Russian art and literature flourished. Gusli playing
                was developed in Novogorod. The streets were paved with lumber in the
                11th century (Paris did the same in 1184), and water was transported
                through wooden pipes.

                The Moscow Tsar Ivan III conquered Novgorod in 1475.

                MOSCOW 1480-

                The first written reference to Moscow was in 1147, when it was
                mentioned as being the hunting lodge of a local boyar prince.
                Originally stettled by Finnish tribes, it was not really a city until
                the 1300s, and wasn't the center of power in Russia until about 1500.
                By 1700, Moscow was the unchallenged center of Russian civilization,
                but the riches of Moscow were assembled by impoverishing the smaller
                centers of local culture (a pattern repeated in the 1900s by
                St. Petersburg).

                The princes of Moscow began to consolidate Russian feudal
                principalities in the 15th century. They were basically fighting the
                Tartars for control of the land while the territories were already
                subjugated. They were also fighting off incursions from the west from
                the Grand Duchys of Poland and Lithuania.

                The areas now known as Ukraine and Belorus were added to Moscow's
                territory in 1654.


                -Yeliz
              • xvlovercrimvx@aol.com
                Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the clothing or did
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                  Ah, spaseeba to Yeliz for the notes. I guess Misha would be placed in
                  Novogrod. Another question:Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                  clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                  their Tatar rulers? I think I asked this question before, but just want to
                  make sure. Any good places online for Russian information? Most of the stuff
                  I have found is either high school oriented (either too vague or maybe
                  misleading) or in Russian (And I don't read Cyrrilic or speak Russian).
                  Thanks for the info everyone!

                  Misha


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                • Elizabeth Lear
                  ... There s a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html Also, Mistress Nicolaa put
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 4, 2003
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                    > Would there be any Tataric influence with the
                    > clothing or did the Russian's keep their own sense of style in defiance to
                    > their Tatar rulers?
                    > Misha

                    There's a very nice SCA publication about 13 C Novgorod, reprinted
                    online at http://www.geocities.com/ilyana7/novgorod/toc.html

                    Also, Mistress Nicolaa put together a book on Novgorod in 1036 which
                    you once were able to order from her. It was written for a local
                    event.


                    For a more general overview, heck out my costume lecture notes:
                    http://indra.com/~eliz/SCA/costuming.txt

                    Particularly, according to "A Cultural History of Russia" (details in
                    the biblio):
                    - The Moscow Court spoke Turkish in the 15th century.
                    - By the end of the 17th century, approximately 17% of the Moscow
                    aristocracy was Mongol.
                    - Many Russian noblemen from the 15th to 17th centuries took Mongol
                    surnames.

                    (Personally, my persona is ostensibly Kiev circa 1450, and own
                    wardrobe is Ukranian, Russian, and Mongol)

                    -Yeliz
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